Getting the absolute best sound out of your system - Blu-ray Forum

Gohanto · 06-06-2009, 07:28 AM

I've been on these boards for a while, debating the differences between speakers, cables, uncompressed vs. uncompressed audio, ect...

The fact is, all this amounts to about 50% of how the audio is finally heard by your ears. Your room is the other 50% and the vast majority that go out and grab a 5.1 system never bother to consider or treat this 50% with nearly the same care they put into getting bigger speaker wires, upgrading to Dolby TrueHD, getting the latest and greatest speakers, ect... (not that these don't help improve sound)

Audyssey is a great tool, but isn't an all-one-solution as many people believe. It can make a bad room listenable, but it can make a properly treated room sound amazing. Even the designers of Audyssey agree that the best results always come from treating the room acoustically before using Audyssey calibration.

A few things to consider...
1. First order reflections - these are the sound reflections where the sound hits one wall, and then your ears directly after. This is the first sound your ear hears after the direct sound from the speaker, however because this is nearly always heard within the first 20ms of hearing the direct sound, your brain interprets this reflected sound as combined with the direct sound. Sadly the wall doesn't reflection all frequencies equally, so this cancels and peaks select frequencies making your great speakers sound like cheaper ones.
A larger problem in many cases though, is that the reflection from the right speaker bounces off the left wall, and your brain is then thinking the signal from the right speaker is coming from the left and the signal from the left channel is partially coming from the right. For stereo imagining, this is detrimental. Placing absorptive panels at these point is quick, easy, and greatly improves imaging between speakers. No amount of EQ can fix this.

2. Ringing can also be a problem. This occurs when you have two parallel walls and sound bounces back and forth between them quickly. This can be quickly identified by clapping your hands between two parallel walls and you'll notice the sounds sustains much longer than it should.

3. Diffusion - With too much absorption, a room can sound too dead (usually between 40-60% over the rooms gets to be too much depending on the room and your preferences). But well placed diffusion can open up the sweet spot in the listening area and ensure that everyone has the same sonic experience. Placed in the back of the room, these panels can help bounce sound from the surround speakers more evenly around the seating area and create a more immersive expereince.

4. Bass is another issue especially in small rooms like most home theaters. In a rectangular room you have easily calculated frequencies where bass amplifies, cancels itself out, or rings. And for each problem frequency, you'll have identical problems at those frequencies harmonics (2x,3x,4x,ect...). One of the smart things about Audyssey EQ is that it specifically doesn't address room mode problems because the designers knows that no boost in EQ will help a frequency that is being canceled at the listening position. Other problems can be slightly masked to varying degrees, or you can treat the problem frequencies and let the EQ handle the fine tuning like it's supposed to.

There is a lot more information out there for anyone interested...

http://www.gikacoustics.com/education.html
http://www.acoustics101.com/

GIK, Auralex, RealTraps, and RPG are just a few well known companies that manufacture acoustic products for home use (but be careful of useless eggcarton or "foam by mail" acoustic scams). Auralex and GIK even look at people's room's layouts, dimensions, and photos to determine what treatments would work best for their rooms and budgets. And they offer this information free of charge.

If you want to hear your audio gear at it's best, learn about and invest in room treatment and you'll never doubt you decision.

Big Daddy · 06-06-2009, 08:13 AM

We have a thread on Acoustic Treatment Research Material. It has a sticky in Home Theater Construction. We also have a thread A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II): Standing Waves & Room Modes that deals with problems of bass sound in a small home theater room.

richteer · 06-06-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohanto

If you want to hear your audio gear at it's best, learn about and invest in room treatment and you'll never doubt you decision.

Very good advice! Real Traps also offers the "send us details of your room and we'll make recommendations" free service, and they also have several very informative videos on their web site.

Gohanto · 06-06-2009, 10:02 PM

I admit I missed the section in Home Theater Construction, but it might be helpful to copy that thready into this section as well, since most people aren't doing much "construction" in creating their home theaters so don't check that forum. Just comparing the total posts in each thread supports that.

HAMP · 06-06-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gohanto

I admit I missed the section in Home Theater Construction, but it might be helpful to copy that thready into this section as well, since most people aren't doing much "construction" in creating their home theaters so don't check that forum. Just comparing the total posts in each thread supports that.

I think this subject does belong under construction and not audio. Most of the things you pointed out pertain to a person’s room layout and not anything really electronic/audio setup.

The construction area/threads are more of wall jacks, sound proofing and just building altogether.

jomari · 06-07-2009, 03:22 AM

great post nonetheless, im glad that someone also appreciates the role of acoustics in a home theater, and how its importance should be at least second to the speakers themselves.

now only if people actually apply what theve learned, is the hard part.

rded · 06-07-2009, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomari

great post nonetheless, im glad that someone also appreciates the role of acoustics in a home theater, and how its importance should be at least second to the speakers themselves.

now only if people actually apply what theve learned, is the hard part.

Hey!!! I resent that

I am actually working on Acoustic treatments. I'll be faxing my basement floor plan and lay out to Auralex early next week and the rest will follow unless my couch potato disease catches up with me.

yellowcakeuf6 · 06-07-2009, 03:52 PM

My 2 cents: Probably a lot of HT's are in basements and concrete floors don't do speakers any favors. Even if the floor is carpeted and there's concrete under there the speakers (obviously floor standing) should be placed on wood slabs 2"-4" thick and spiked if possible. This is a big improvement!

Grevlin · 06-07-2009, 04:00 PM

Don't forget your ceiling! I'm researching acoustic placement and I noticed that many leave the ceiling untouched. They are usually huge flat surfaces that bounce sound all over the place. Throw up some absorbers and diffusers, GO!

zedd_117 · 06-07-2009, 04:00 PM

WOW, thanks for all of the info guys. I knew that it was important to accoustically treat a room. I'm currently in the market for my first house, and home theatre set-up has played a surprising large role in what I'm looking for. I guess I should also consider all of this advice as well.

Riff Magnum · 06-07-2009, 04:18 PM

Definitely good advice, but i find myself in the "I don't really want my living room looking like a recording studio" boat. I'm trying to use corner bookshelves, cd/dvd towers, shelving with albums, and regular old bookshelves at reflection points and corners to find that happy medium. Eventually i'd like to get one of those big bass columns to put in the corner behind my tv. I forget where i saw them but they're pretty cool and they actually look like they can blend with the room better than foam panels. Also some of those high end diffusors look really cool, like modern art or something. I've also found that my sub sounds noticeably better elevated on my brick fireplace. Recording in bands i've seen several engineers use brick walls to get fantastic bass sounds.

-DLS- · 06-07-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grevlin

Don't forget your ceiling! I'm researching acoustic placement and I noticed that many leave the ceiling untouched. They are usually huge flat surfaces that bounce sound all over the place. Throw up some absorbers and diffusers, GO!

I agree with the ceiling.. only adding 4 T'Fusor panels has made a pretty big difference even with having ceiling tiles which probably isn't as reflective as a drywalled ceiling.

To really get the best out of you HT - acoustic treatments will make a HUGE difference. A lot of people got some nice gear but are not getting the best of it - I think it is VERY important to treat your room and calibrate it with an SPL meter!! I've tried everything from curtains, Auralex foam wedgies, sub isolation risers to diffusers and even on my front wall where it probably isn't necessary I put recycled office dividers. I think my room would sound pretty bad without any treatments. Good thread!!

got rice · 06-07-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLS_222

I agree with the ceiling.. only adding 4 T'Fusor panels has made a pretty big difference even with having ceiling tiles which probably isn't as reflective as a drywalled ceiling.

To really get the best out of you HT - acoustic treatments will make a HUGE difference. A lot of people got some nice gear but are not getting the best of it - I think it is VERY important to treat your room and calibrate it with an SPL meter!! I've tried everything from curtains, Auralex foam wedgies, sub isolation risers to diffusers and even on my front wall where it probably isn't necessary I put recycled office dividers. I think my room would sound pretty bad without any treatments. Good thread!!

Grevlin has made a good point, I've noticed as well, that the ceiling gets overlooked way too many times.

DLS...Man you did it right the first time. On top of sounding great, the T'fusors offer a very clean aesthetically sound look. One of my fav's.

jomari · 06-07-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

...Definitely good advice, but i find myself in the "I don't really want my living room looking like a recording studio" boat. I'm trying to use corner bookshelves, cd/dvd towers, shelving with albums, and regular old bookshelves at reflection points and corners to find that happy medium. Eventually i'd like to get one of those big bass columns to put in the corner behind my tv...

great point indicated by riff magnum.

on the flipside, most people dont have a dedicated home theater room, so they end up using a living space to accomodate their home needs. and most living quarters cant accomodate each and every acoustic treatment available on the market due to aesthetics, thus the compromise.

-DLS- · 06-07-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by got rice

Grevlin has made a good point, I've noticed as well, that the ceiling gets overlooked way too many times.

DLS...Man you did it right the first time. On top of sounding great, the T'fusors offer a very clean aesthetically sound look. One of my fav's.

Thanks!!

I agree with riff and jomari too.. I started out upstairs in my living room with a HTIB - that was ok in my small living room in a condo with a lot of furniture for a small room. In my current place the living room now is twice the size with vaulted ceilings and it is very hollow sounding. I added a Thick area rug and some dvd/bookshelves and even that made a difference. for those that don't have a dedicated room little things like that, thick drapes, even canvas painting or frames like the ones from here will work in a living room http://www.soundsorba.com/artsorbacanvas.htm It is hard to work with but little things can make big differences.

Gohanto · 06-08-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

Definitely good advice, but i find myself in the "I don't really want my living room looking like a recording studio" boat.

That's understandable and a lot of people fall into that boat. You might consider some artistic options such as these...
http://www.auralex.com/sonicprint/
http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
Both companies have a lot of artwork to choose from, or let you submit your own to put on the walls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

I'm trying to use corner bookshelves, cd/dvd towers, shelving with albums, and regular old bookshelves at reflection points and corners to find that happy medium.

That's currently much better than bare walls as that'll diffuse the reflections, but having heavy curtains, thick fabric furniture, or some of those art panels to absorb the sound at the first reflection points (especially along the side walls) instead would be ideal. Granted home theater is all about the subtle art of compromising "theater" performance vs. making space that you can feel at "home" in.

crazyBLUE · 06-08-2009, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grevlin

Don't forget your ceiling! I'm researching acoustic placement and I noticed that many leave the ceiling untouched. They are usually huge flat surfaces that bounce sound all over the place. Throw up some absorbers and diffusers, GO!

Quote:

Originally Posted by got rice

Grevlin has made a good point, I've noticed as well, that the ceiling gets overlooked way too many times.

DLS...Man you did it right the first time. On top of sounding great, the T'fusors offer a very clean aesthetically sound look. One of my fav's.

I did not overlook anything !

got rice · 06-08-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

I did not overlook anything !

Easy with the bat...Haha.

Your the small minority. Nice Job.

repete66211 · 06-09-2009, 07:57 PM

I'm with Riff. Since I don't have a dedicated home theater, I want my system to be in the room, not be the room. I have no doubt a sound system's audio quality will be increased with the appropriate acoustic treatments (although I think 100% improvement is a bit optimistic), but they're ugly anywhere outside a dedicated home theater.

06-06-2009, 07:28 AM	#1
Gohanto Member Member since:Jan 2009 Blu-ray collection:9	Getting the absolute best sound out of your system I've been on these boards for a while, debating the differences between speakers, cables, uncompressed vs. uncompressed audio, ect... The fact is, all this amounts to about 50% of how the audio is finally heard by your ears. Your room is the other 50% and the vast majority that go out and grab a 5.1 system never bother to consider or treat this 50% with nearly the same care they put into getting bigger speaker wires, upgrading to Dolby TrueHD, getting the latest and greatest speakers, ect... (not that these don't help improve sound) Audyssey is a great tool, but isn't an all-one-solution as many people believe. It can make a bad room listenable, but it can make a properly treated room sound amazing. Even the designers of Audyssey agree that the best results always come from treating the room acoustically before using Audyssey calibration. A few things to consider... 1. First order reflections - these are the sound reflections where the sound hits one wall, and then your ears directly after. This is the first sound your ear hears after the direct sound from the speaker, however because this is nearly always heard within the first 20ms of hearing the direct sound, your brain interprets this reflected sound as combined with the direct sound. Sadly the wall doesn't reflection all frequencies equally, so this cancels and peaks select frequencies making your great speakers sound like cheaper ones. A larger problem in many cases though, is that the reflection from the right speaker bounces off the left wall, and your brain is then thinking the signal from the right speaker is coming from the left and the signal from the left channel is partially coming from the right. For stereo imagining, this is detrimental. Placing absorptive panels at these point is quick, easy, and greatly improves imaging between speakers. No amount of EQ can fix this. 2. Ringing can also be a problem. This occurs when you have two parallel walls and sound bounces back and forth between them quickly. This can be quickly identified by clapping your hands between two parallel walls and you'll notice the sounds sustains much longer than it should. 3. Diffusion - With too much absorption, a room can sound too dead (usually between 40-60% over the rooms gets to be too much depending on the room and your preferences). But well placed diffusion can open up the sweet spot in the listening area and ensure that everyone has the same sonic experience. Placed in the back of the room, these panels can help bounce sound from the surround speakers more evenly around the seating area and create a more immersive expereince. 4. Bass is another issue especially in small rooms like most home theaters. In a rectangular room you have easily calculated frequencies where bass amplifies, cancels itself out, or rings. And for each problem frequency, you'll have identical problems at those frequencies harmonics (2x,3x,4x,ect...). One of the smart things about Audyssey EQ is that it specifically doesn't address room mode problems because the designers knows that no boost in EQ will help a frequency that is being canceled at the listening position. Other problems can be slightly masked to varying degrees, or you can treat the problem frequencies and let the EQ handle the fine tuning like it's supposed to. There is a lot more information out there for anyone interested... http://www.gikacoustics.com/education.html http://www.acoustics101.com/ GIK, Auralex, RealTraps, and RPG are just a few well known companies that manufacture acoustic products for home use (but be careful of useless eggcarton or "foam by mail" acoustic scams). Auralex and GIK even look at people's room's layouts, dimensions, and photos to determine what treatments would work best for their rooms and budgets. And they offer this information free of charge. If you want to hear your audio gear at it's best, learn about and invest in room treatment and you'll never doubt you decision. Last edited by Gohanto; 06-06-2009 at 07:34 AM.

06-06-2009, 08:13 AM	#2
Big Daddy Blu-ray Champion Top ranked HT gallery Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Southern California Home Theater Gallery:79 Blu-ray collection:122 Trading Score:1	We have a thread on Acoustic Treatment Research Material. It has a sticky in Home Theater Construction. We also have a thread A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II): Standing Waves & Room Modes that deals with problems of bass sound in a small home theater room. Last edited by Big Daddy; 06-06-2009 at 08:16 AM.

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06-06-2009, 10:02 PM	#4
Gohanto Member Member since:Jan 2009 Blu-ray collection:9	I admit I missed the section in Home Theater Construction, but it might be helpful to copy that thready into this section as well, since most people aren't doing much "construction" in creating their home theaters so don't check that forum. Just comparing the total posts in each thread supports that.

06-07-2009, 03:22 AM	#6
jomari Moderator Top contributor Member since:Nov 2007 Home Theater Gallery:18 Blu-ray reviews: 2 Trading Score:2	great post nonetheless, im glad that someone also appreciates the role of acoustics in a home theater, and how its importance should be at least second to the speakers themselves. now only if people actually apply what theve learned, is the hard part.

06-07-2009, 03:52 PM	#8
yellowcakeuf6 Blu-ray Guru Member since:Nov 2008 4K collection:- Blu-ray collection:- DVD collection:- Blu-ray reviews: 16	My 2 cents: Probably a lot of HT's are in basements and concrete floors don't do speakers any favors. Even if the floor is carpeted and there's concrete under there the speakers (obviously floor standing) should be placed on wood slabs 2"-4" thick and spiked if possible. This is a big improvement!

06-07-2009, 04:00 PM	#9
Grevlin Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Jan 2009 Home Theater Gallery:38 Blu-ray collection:82	Don't forget your ceiling! I'm researching acoustic placement and I noticed that many leave the ceiling untouched. They are usually huge flat surfaces that bounce sound all over the place. Throw up some absorbers and diffusers, GO!

06-07-2009, 04:00 PM	#10
zedd_117 Expert Member Member since:Oct 2008 Location:Monessen, PA Blu-ray collection:353 Trading Score:3	WOW, thanks for all of the info guys. I knew that it was important to accoustically treat a room. I'm currently in the market for my first house, and home theatre set-up has played a surprising large role in what I'm looking for. I guess I should also consider all of this advice as well.

06-07-2009, 04:18 PM	#11
Riff Magnum Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Island Blu-ray collection:149	Definitely good advice, but i find myself in the "I don't really want my living room looking like a recording studio" boat. I'm trying to use corner bookshelves, cd/dvd towers, shelving with albums, and regular old bookshelves at reflection points and corners to find that happy medium. Eventually i'd like to get one of those big bass columns to put in the corner behind my tv. I forget where i saw them but they're pretty cool and they actually look like they can blend with the room better than foam panels. Also some of those high end diffusors look really cool, like modern art or something. I've also found that my sub sounds noticeably better elevated on my brick fireplace. Recording in bands i've seen several engineers use brick walls to get fantastic bass sounds.

06-09-2009, 07:57 PM	#19
repete66211 Blu-ray Samurai Top contributor Member since:Jan 2009 Location:Kansas City area Home Theater Gallery:10 Blu-ray collection:196 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:3	I'm with Riff. Since I don't have a dedicated home theater, I want my system to be in the room, not be the room. I have no doubt a sound system's audio quality will be increased with the appropriate acoustic treatments (although I think 100% improvement is a bit optimistic), but they're ugly anywhere outside a dedicated home theater.

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