The Last of Us Part 2 - PS5

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Not what I mean. All those Ellie deaths you see (or, if you want, a bad player sees) are possible futures for her as she goes on this pointless quest. She takes on so much danger for a man who's already dead. Just because she said something mean to him before he died? As she leaves her girlfriend and the baby to try again and then slaughters so many more on her way to emaciated Abbie in that final chapter, her obsession seems bizarre. Autistic. I'm reading the manga Lone Wolf and Cub. Was made into a movie series. At least there it wasn't just bloody revenge but also the goal to clear his name and reestablish his house. Druckmann's a bad storyteller.

It is not a pointless quest. Joel was a father figure to Ellie. Joel put his life on the line and sacrificed the people he knew to help Ellie. Yes, he also killed a couple dozen strangers. Contrary to the way WLF sees Joel, he was a hero and one of the most beloved characters in gaming history. You display ignorance in describing Ellie as autistic for avenging him. You're ignorance about autism is even worse than your ignorance about vengeance as a motive in video games.

Druckmann built his career by being a great storyteller. The first installment of TLoU was arguably the greatest story of any video game ever created. The Uncharted games also were built on great stories. Maybe Druckmann is no longer a great storyteller or maybe he squandered it by choosing to indulge in gender dysphoria and quickly kill off his most popular character in TLoU2 for no good reason. I don't like the story of TLoU2 any more than you do, but it doesn't erase all of Druckmann's achievements.

As for alternating the shoulder as a shooter, I don't know why you think this should be a part of the shooter's experience. Have you ever trained with real firearms? Not only do you need to favor your dominant hand, but your dominant eye when using the sight on your weapon. No amount of training can change your dominant eye. I suppose if you train hours a day with your weaker hand, you could perhaps make some progress with your off hand. In terms of gameplay, it doesn't add anything to be able to switch shoulders and makes the game less realistic. So why make that a part of the gameplay? You never make a good case for it.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Gremal

It is not a pointless quest. Joel was a father figure to Ellie. Joel put his life on the line and sacrificed the people he knew to help Ellie. Yes, he also killed a couple dozen strangers. Contrary to the way WLF sees Joel, he was a hero and one of the most beloved characters in gaming history. You display ignorance in describing Ellie as autistic for avenging him. You're ignorance about autism is even worse than your ignorance about vengeance as a motive in video games.

Druckmann built his career by being a great storyteller. The first installment of TLoU was arguably the greatest story of any video game ever created. The Uncharted games also were built on great stories. Maybe Druckmann is no longer a great storyteller or maybe he squandered it by choosing to indulge in gender dysphoria and quickly kill off his most popular character in TLoU2 for no good reason. I don't like the story of TLoU2 any more than you do, but it doesn't erase all of Druckmann's achievements.

As for alternating the shoulder as a shooter, I don't know why you think this should be a part of the shooter's experience. Have you ever trained with real firearms? Not only do you need to favor your dominant hand, but your dominant eye when using the sight on your weapon. No amount of training can change your dominant eye. I suppose if you train hours a day with your weaker hand, you could perhaps make some progress with your off hand. In terms of gameplay, it doesn't add anything to be able to switch shoulders and makes the game less realistic. So why make that a part of the gameplay? You never make a good case for it.

It's a pointless quest. I would get nothing out of avenging my dead mother through mass murder and deadly risk to myself, and it would be biologically illogical because she preceded me, no longer carries on the bloodline. For a child would be more believable, but still repugnant. A great evil.

Ignoring the second part where you overrate the game.

What does a real shooter's dominant hand and eye have to do with visibility in a third person shooter? You don't see real life from outside of yourself, vision canted far to one side of where you actually are. I explained perfectly why the lack of full shoulder swapping blinds in a game with dense areas like this. There was no reason to only allow while aiming the gun. Why are you even against my suggestion? What bothers you about my suggested control scheme?

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

It's a pointless quest. I would get nothing out of avenging my dead mother through mass murder and deadly risk to myself, and it would be biologically illogical because she preceded me, no longer carries on the bloodline. For a child would be more believable, but still repugnant. A great evil.

That makes no sense. Your mother didn't battle infected and uninfected enemies across the entire country to get you where you were supposed to be, and then fight an entire army of enemies to save your life. Freud might have fun analyzing your feelings about your mother, though.

Ignoring the second part where you overrate the game.

Ignore away but it's not me who overrates it. The entire gaming establishment gave it tons of awards and highest ratings, and Playstation fans everywhere adore it. If you think it's smart to ignore all of them, that's not a good look for you.

What does a real shooter's dominant hand and eye have to do with visibility in a third person shooter?

It lends some element of realism in terms of how someone holding a firearm moves and keeps their body position in relation to where they're looking.

You don't see real life from outside of yourself, vision canted far to one side of where you actually are. I explained perfectly why the lack of full shoulder swapping blinds in a game with dense areas like this. There was no reason to only allow while aiming the gun. Why are you even against my suggestion? What bothers you about my suggested control scheme?

I already said why, and it's rude to keep asking questions without answer my question: have you ever trained to use a firearm? I believe, if you had, you would understand why the view is set up this way and why most games don't let you switch hands with firearms.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by Gremal

That makes no sense. Your mother didn't battle infected and uninfected enemies across the entire country to get you where you were supposed to be, and then fight an entire army of enemies to save your life. Freud might have fun analyzing your feelings about your mother, though.



Ignore away but it's not me who overrates it. The entire gaming establishment gave it tons of awards and highest ratings, and Playstation fans everywhere adore it. If you think it's smart to ignore all of them, that's not a good look for you.



It lends some element of realism in terms of how someone holding a firearm moves and keeps their body position in relation to where they're looking.



I already said why, and it's rude to keep asking questions without answer my question: have you ever trained to use a firearm? I believe, if you had, you would understand why the view is set up this way and why most games don't let you switch hands with firearms.

My analogy makes sense. Our parents didn't battle enemies for us across countries, but they did other things for us, they sacrificed, and the rational of us still wouldn't go on murderous, deadly revenge trips for them. It serves her no purpose. It's a stupid, illogical motivation without anything else behind it to drive her.

I'm supposed to be impressed by the accolades?

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...t-of-us-review

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/the.../1900-6409197/

They wrote so much while saying so little. It's mediocre. It always was. Played it for the first time in 2016 and, even in a second playthrough, saw nothing real between Joel and Ellie. Nothing worth caring for anyway.

You didn't explain shit. No, I have never held a gun. That has no bearing on how the virtual combat and stealth is limited to one shoulder, on how it BLINDS you when coming around a right corner in a game full of corners. While the gun might be canted more to one side in real life, you would still be able to look leftward without turning your body, OF COURSE. But it's not even about holding a gun, about pointing it. It's WHEN the protagonist of The Last of Us points the gun that you can swap. I don't think you grasp what I'm talking about: being able to look around while moving normally through the environment, not having to take the gun out and point it (which slows your character's legs significantly) simply so that you can see what's on the other side of the character or behind them.

[RocShemp]

Y'all realize the pointlessness of Ellie's/Abby's quest for revenge is the point of the story, right? Ellie is out for vengeance whilst gaining nothing positive for her efforts. Abby got her revenge and it didn't bring her the peace or closure she sought. The point of the story is that vengeance is just part of a vicious cycle of violence that ultimately does not benefit those who seek it, despite the immediate cathartic/euphoric release that occurs at the moment of vengeance. Ultimately, you have to deal with the fallout, be it retribution, loss, or good old post homicidal depression.

[deckard82]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

Y'all realize the pointlessness of Ellie's/Abby's quest for revenge is the point of the story, right? Ellie is out for vengeance whilst gaining nothing positive for her efforts. Abby got her revenge and it didn't bring her the peace or closure she sought. The point of the story is that vengeance is just part of a vicious cycle of violence that ultimately does not benefit those who seek it, despite the immediate cathartic/euphoric release that occurs at the moment of vengeance. Ultimately, you have to deal with the fallout, be it retribution, loss, or good old post homicidal depression.

This. Very much this. I'd go as far as to say that it's a metaphor for real life events, which I'm not gonna get into. But yeah, the point is, that it's pointless.

[deckard82]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Ignore away but it's not me who overrates it. The entire gaming establishment gave it tons of awards and highest ratings, and Playstation fans everywhere adore it. If you think it's smart to ignore all of them, that's not a good look for you.

Kinda rich because you could say the same thing about Part 2. It's not universally hated. Just because the anti-woke crowd and the Joel die-hard fans hate it, doesn't mean everyone does. All my friends loved it just as much as I did. Plenty of people and critics did and no review bombing and dislike button hammering's gonna change that. For people who complain about cancel culture, they sure try to cancel a lot of stuff. Can't cancel peoples' favorable opinions though.

[the-pi-guy]

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

Not what I mean. All those Ellie deaths you see (or, if you want, a bad player sees) are possible futures for her as she goes on this pointless quest. She takes on so much danger for a man who's already dead. Just because she said something mean to him before he died? As she leaves her girlfriend and the baby to try again and then slaughters so many more on her way to emaciated Abbie in that final chapter, her obsession seems bizarre. Autistic. I'm reading the manga Lone Wolf and Cub. Was made into a movie series. At least there it wasn't just bloody revenge but also the goal to clear his name and reestablish his house. Druckmann's a bad storyteller.

I'm kind of fascinated by your take because a lot of people that hate TLOU Part II have the opposite issue. A lot of people are upset that Ellie didn't go all the way.

Originally Posted by Warm Gun

The production values are nice. But that's a double-edged sword that stifles creativity. When you have over 2,000 people (I didn't make that number up.) working on a game, it's much harder for any one of them to make a suggestion. If I had worked there at the time and it was a smaller project with fewer people, maybe someone would have listened to me or read my note in the suggestion box when I said that shoulder swapping should have been allowed at all times, not just while aiming. It makes corners worse. You often can't see what you turn towards with the gun down. L3 doesn't do anything important. Just lets you look at points of interest, which could have been done with Triangle when those moments occur. What they could have done is move the flashlight to L3 and then let you swap shoulders at all times with R3, fittingly the camera stick. Also wouldn't then have to leave the camera stick to press Cross to control THE CAMERA.

Would be good if some of the upgrades weren't under abilities that you don't really want and have little if anything to do with the other. I hardly ever used the listening mode, but I had to enhance it if I wanted certain other upgrades. Those later upgrades already cost more, so why put that extra cost there for something the player doesn't want? I hardly upgraded anything, because it's generally so expensive for so little.

Aiming is weird. Partly because the game assists. The assist can't be turned off. Been like this since the first game. Uncharted let you turn off the assist. Felt often like I fought the controls.

Wish the stealth was better. Wish that merely aiming at an unsuspecting enemy with your gun didn't give them this sixth sense. Well, not quite sixth sense, but it makes them extremely attuned to the outermost regions of their far peripheral vision.

Wish you could aim your gun from low cover without lifting your head. In Uncharted 1, you could actually pop out to the side from low cover, rather than always popping up. Uncharted 2 removed that, and I don't think Naughty Dog ever really improved their cover mechanics, whether it's sticky cover like Uncharted or free cover like The Last of Us. Well, it's nice that you can crouch and lie down. That's an improvement over Uncharted. But your movement options are still so limited that it's hard to aim at any enemy without getting shot at.

I found it so lame that your enemies always have unlimited ammo and you always have maybe two bullets, if any. Makes the game way too much about coming up behind, grab n' stab, rinse and repeat. I tried a balance of Hard and Survival. Nice that you can adjust all the individual difficulty parameters. But with the meter just one lower I found too many resources, when I only really wanted more ammo.

She kills so many people to avenge one person, in a story that's supposed to be serious. If you look up the term "cognitive dissonance" in a dictionary, the definition is "The Last of Us, Part II." The story has no point. I didn't feel like what I did mattered, because revenge is a stupid motivation. It's excusable in fantasy like God of War or exploitation like Kill Bill and Lady Snowblood, but stupid in serious drama. Imagine going through so much trouble, so much danger to your life, getting killed over and over from the player's perspective, to do something for a dead person who won't come back anyway. She murders about 150 people to spare one. Joel would be so proud. It feels so stupid by the end, with Ellie looking so autistic. Story is exceedingly grim. Really don't understand the draw to that kind of storytelling. If the characters' actions made sense it would at least be more excusable.

A lot of these things are subjective issues. I never had any issues with the aiming or stealth, and I'm pretty sure that you can modify a lot of these things like aim assist. I'm probably wrong though.

You can complain about how much sense anything makes.

Abbie is a crappy character design. Just made her arms as big as possible and called it a day. Look at bodybuilder Lisa Lyon. Much better balance there. Doesn't look like they simply attached a man's arms and shoulders to a woman's body. I know you can find much bigger women, but they look like shit and train far more than Abbie would have time for. Abbie probably also eats an inordinate amount of WLF's food.

Abby's body is based off of Colleen Fotsch:

[Show spoiler]

[Warm Gun]

Thanks for spoiler-tagging that. Disgusting. Certainly more provided for than Abby in a survivor camp.

Lack of shoulder swap bothers the hell out of me in fake RE4 as well. Playing the demo. Have to move so far out of cover to see what's there.

[Warm Gun]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

Y'all realize the pointlessness of Ellie's/Abby's quest for revenge is the point of the story, right? Ellie is out for vengeance whilst gaining nothing positive for her efforts. Abby got her revenge and it didn't bring her the peace or closure she sought. The point of the story is that vengeance is just part of a vicious cycle of violence that ultimately does not benefit those who seek it, despite the immediate cathartic/euphoric release that occurs at the moment of vengeance. Ultimately, you have to deal with the fallout, be it retribution, loss, or good old post homicidal depression.

Oh. The cycle of hatred is inspired by Druckmann's indoctrinated hatred of a certain people. No wonder it's illogical and doesn't work. He said it on his podcast and an interview with The Washington Post. I can't post the article because of the politics and the forum's rules. You can find it on Vice.

[mwynn]

Time to get back into this over the winter break.

[bradnoyes]

I've been meaning to replay this ever since I got the PS5 upgrade, but I keep forgetting since I so rarely turn on my PS5. Going to have to make the time for it soon. And it always makes me laugh to see people get mad about this game.

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by bradnoyes

I've been meaning to replay this ever since I got the PS5 upgrade, but I keep forgetting since I so rarely turn on my PS5. Going to have to make the time for it soon. And it always makes me laugh to see people get mad about this game.

There is that one part in the building where the enemies keep spawning. I am going to stack up so many bodies.

[Steelmaker]

My issue with TLOU2, its HOW Joel dies and the fact that ND was stupid enough to think gamers would just accept the idea of playing as Abby, who murders a beloved character such as Joel 20 minutes prior! Imo, that was a huge disprespect to the fans, to ask them to do that. I can almost hear the boardroom conversation at ND where Druckmann says, "Hey, you know what would REALLY" piss off the fans???" Im sorry, but that was a terrible decision! To ask gamers to accept Abby as a protagonist that we must control/be protective of, after introducing her as the sadistic, murdering c_nt who killed Joel was a huge miscalculation! It was a terrible decision that IMO was a result of Neil Druckmann's own hubris. Asking the audience to accept playing as a protagonist everybody hates because she had just sadistically murdered a character everybody loved, is a ridiculous notion and a creative indulgence that he should've have recognized as a terrible idea! I mean, what kind of contempt for your audience must you have to ask them to do something like that???

[mwynn]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

My issue with TLOU2, its HOW Joel dies and the fact that ND was stupid enough to think gamers would just accept the idea of playing as Abby, who murders a beloved character such as Joel 20 minutes prior! Imo, that was a huge disprespect to the fans, to ask them to do that. I can almost hear the boardroom conversation at ND where Druckmann says, "Hey, you know what would REALLY" piss off the fans???" Im sorry, but that was a terrible decision! To ask gamers to accept Abby as a protagonist that we must control/be protective of, after introducing her as the sadistic, murdering c_nt who killed Joel was a huge miscalculation! It was a terrible decision that IMO was a result of Neil Druckmann's own hubris. Asking the audience to accept playing as a protagonist everybody hates because she had just sadistically murdered a character everybody loved, is a ridiculous notion and a creative indulgence that he should've have recognized as a terrible idea! I mean, what kind of contempt for your audience must you have to ask them to do something like that???

It is the perfect palate cleanser for me. It does something only Metal Gear Solid 2 did. Completely swerve you. They even set you up thinking you are playing as Ellie. After all these years it is hard to surprise me, and that switch out surprised me. I like it.

[deckard82]

People need to quit claiming that ND/Druckmann pissed fans off, as if they pissed everyone off and as if everyone hated TLOU2. That's simply not true. I'm a fan. I didn't feel disrespected and as a matter of fact I respect an artist's decisions. Those decisions might not work for everyone but in this case I understood what the artist was trying to say and it worked for me.

If you want Joel and play as Joel then play TLOU1. Where's the problem? No one's forcing anyone to play TLOU2. Resident Evil 6 sucks balls. So I don't play it. It doesn't ruin any other RE for me.

[eiknarf]

I like the way Last of Us Part 2 unfolded.

But for those that don’t, and even those that do, like myself, this is the best way they could have had Part 2 play out.
(when you hear how he lays it out, it’s really really great):

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/6kfJQEIXfx

[jtu128]

TLOU 2 is every bit the masterpiece the first game was IMO. Once something gets popular there is an angry mob ready to criticize it.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by deckard82

People need to quit claiming that ND/Druckmann pissed fans off, as if they pissed everyone off and as if everyone hated TLOU2. That's simply not true. I'm a fan. I didn't feel disrespected and as a matter of fact I respect an artist's decisions. Those decisions might not work for everyone but in this case I understood what the artist was trying to say and it worked for me.

If you want Joel and play as Joel then play TLOU1. Where's the problem? No one's forcing anyone to play TLOU2. Resident Evil 6 sucks balls. So I don't play it. It doesn't ruin any other RE for me.

Its not literally everybody, but it's enough that he should've known better!

[DragonOfTheBlackPool]

Originally Posted by deckard82

If you want Joel and play as Joel then play TLOU1. Where's the problem? No one's forcing anyone to play TLOU2. Resident Evil 6 sucks balls. So I don't play it. It doesn't ruin any other RE for me.

Horrible analogy, none of RE’s main protagonists die in 6. I don’t get the comparison.