Old fart with speaker questions, be nice :-)

[Flea77]

Back in the day, I spent way too much time and money on car audio. One thing I learned (among many) was that you had to use the correct size speaker for a given application. For example, an 8" woofer could produce very tight bass, but was horrible at low frequencies, the 15" was fantastic a low frequencies, but muddy higher up. The 12" was a good middle ground, when strapped correctly it could produce most of the tightness of the 8" while getting most of the low freqs. Notice I said most.

Today I am looking at replacing my aging front channel speakers (L and R) so I head off to places online like Crutchfield. Almost all the speakers now use a maximum of 6.25" driver while placing all the rest of the low freqs on the sub. This seems completely absurd to me. From my aging experience you need four types of speakers, tweeter, midrange, woofer, subwoofer. It seems the industry has forgotten the difference between a woofer and subwoofer, and in fact the guy at Crutchfield told me there was no difference!

Here is an example of what I mean. I go to Frys' to listen to their home theater sound systems and the bombs are great, fantastic explosions, perfect vocals, beautiful highs, but when someone slams what appears to be a solid oak door it sounds like they slammed a trailer home door!

So tell me wise ones, am I just so old that I have no idea what today's technology can do with speakers or is everyone running around selling speakers with no bass response between what a midrange can do and what a subwoofer can do?

Right now I have a pair of really old MGA floor speakers (12" woofer, 5.25" mid, tweets) and then I have a Sony powered subwoofer. I am somewhat happy with the sound, except the MGAs are literally falling apart. I was looking to replace them with either Cerwin Vega CLS-10s or CLS-12s because I can not for the life of me believe that a skinny tower with a couple of 6.25" mids can dish it out, even if they do cost $1,200 each!

Allan

[Footloose301]

Originally Posted by Flea77

Back in the day, I spent way too much time and money on car audio. One thing I learned (among many) was that you had to use the correct size speaker for a given application. For example, an 8" woofer could produce very tight bass, but was horrible at low frequencies, the 15" was fantastic a low frequencies, but muddy higher up. The 12" was a good middle ground, when strapped correctly it could produce most of the tightness of the 8" while getting most of the low freqs. Notice I said most.

Today I am looking at replacing my aging front channel speakers (L and R) so I head off to places online like Crutchfield. Almost all the speakers now use a maximum of 6.25" driver while placing all the rest of the low freqs on the sub. This seems completely absurd to me. From my aging experience you need four types of speakers, tweeter, midrange, woofer, subwoofer. It seems the industry has forgotten the difference between a woofer and subwoofer, and in fact the guy at Crutchfield told me there was no difference!

Here is an example of what I mean. I go to Frys' to listen to their home theater sound systems and the bombs are great, fantastic explosions, perfect vocals, beautiful highs, but when someone slams what appears to be a solid oak door it sounds like they slammed a trailer home door!

So tell me wise ones, am I just so old that I have no idea what today's technology can do with speakers or is everyone running around selling speakers with no bass response between what a midrange can do and what a subwoofer can do?

Right now I have a pair of really old MGA floor speakers (12" woofer, 5.25" mid, tweets) and then I have a Sony powered subwoofer. I am somewhat happy with the sound, except the MGAs are literally falling apart. I was looking to replace them with either Cerwin Vega CLS-10s or CLS-12s because I can not for the life of me believe that a skinny tower with a couple of 6.25" mids can dish it out, even if they do cost $1,200 each!

Allan

No no. You're correct. Having multiple speakers of different sizes are beneficial. I think everyone here would agree that a floor standing will sound better than a Bose or similar which only use a single speaker for all harmonic freg above 100Hz

[The Guardian]

Well, some of the multi-driver towers now have a secondary crossover and dedicate one or more drivers (5"-8" depending on the speaker) to under 400 Hz. This does improve their bass a bit but of course you could still get that gap unless you find one that has 8 inchers...

The solution might be two subs... 10" and 15" perhaps?

A friend of mine had a 12" and an 18" veoldyne subs on his system, when the T-rex in Jurassic Park was stomping around the pictures on his wall would slide due to the vibrations But his speakers had 8" drivers.

[DavePS3]

This is what I've found... back in the sixties and 70's, speakers all had big woofers as well as midrange and tweeter. The sound from those old speakers was very warm but because the woofers were big, the excursion - or speed of the push-pull was slow. Plus you had a lot distortion from ssources and equipment back then which many felt was added warmth. Now days, the woofers in speakers are 2 or 3 small ones to have faster bass... a quicker response especially in music but because those woofers are smaller, you've now lost the warmth. You've gained clarity and tightness but lost that warmth that the old Altec Lansings had or even Cerwin Vega.

Because home theater requires a subwoofer, speaker manufacturers don'tplace a lot of emphasis on the other speakers for bass response... they let the subwoofer handle it. The problem is this... most stores as well as people, don't set the subwoofer's controls properly thus leaving a huge gap between low bass and the mid-range bass. You have to set the crossover point on the sub, to match where your front speakers stop. Stores have a bad habit of setting the sub too low, that's why you don't hear doors slam properly.

Buy speakers that are made for music first, not for mid-range dominated home theater. That way you can't go wrong using them for both applications. Get a good subwoofer. Check the specs on it. It's not how big the driver is in the sub, it's the amp and crossover. You can make bookshelf speakers perform perfectly if you just set up your subwoofer properly.

[Whytewash]

FLEA77:

Welcome! You should find tons on information on here that relates to speakers, surround sound, etc. The search button is useful but it always helps to ask specific questions if you cant seem to find out what you are looking for!

again! welcome!!

[Flea77]

Anyone have experience with Polk Audio RTi10s?

[jdc115]

Originally Posted by Flea77

Back in the day, I spent way too much time and money on car audio. One thing I learned (among many) was that you had to use the correct size speaker for a given application. For example, an 8" woofer could produce very tight bass, but was horrible at low frequencies, the 15" was fantastic a low frequencies, but muddy higher up. The 12" was a good middle ground, when strapped correctly it could produce most of the tightness of the 8" while getting most of the low freqs. Notice I said most.

Today I am looking at replacing my aging front channel speakers (L and R) so I head off to places online like Crutchfield. Almost all the speakers now use a maximum of 6.25" driver while placing all the rest of the low freqs on the sub. This seems completely absurd to me. From my aging experience you need four types of speakers, tweeter, midrange, woofer, subwoofer. It seems the industry has forgotten the difference between a woofer and subwoofer, and in fact the guy at Crutchfield told me there was no difference!

Here is an example of what I mean. I go to Frys' to listen to their home theater sound systems and the bombs are great, fantastic explosions, perfect vocals, beautiful highs, but when someone slams what appears to be a solid oak door it sounds like they slammed a trailer home door!

So tell me wise ones, am I just so old that I have no idea what today's technology can do with speakers or is everyone running around selling speakers with no bass response between what a midrange can do and what a subwoofer can do?

Right now I have a pair of really old MGA floor speakers (12" woofer, 5.25" mid, tweets) and then I have a Sony powered subwoofer. I am somewhat happy with the sound, except the MGAs are literally falling apart. I was looking to replace them with either Cerwin Vega CLS-10s or CLS-12s because I can not for the life of me believe that a skinny tower with a couple of 6.25" mids can dish it out, even if they do cost $1,200 each!

Allan

All I can say is that you really should go listen to them and judge for yourself. A lot has changed and driver size doesn't mean they are better or worst. The problem with 3 range or 4 range speakers is that your add distortion with the extra crossovers. Many speakers will have better base response with multiple 6.25 drivers then a 12" woofer.

My focus was always been 2 channel audio so I am more focused on the music then movies so I will sacrifice bass over a good mid range sound. For me, a good balance is a nice 2-way speaker (woofer and tweeter) and then I can use a subwoofer for movies.

I would never buy speakers from crutchfield or any other online source unless I really could listen to them first with different sources (music and movies).

[cawgijoe]

If you want a speaker that does not require a sub for home theater, go for a new Thiel CS3.7 or a used Thiel CS3.6 or CS6.0.

These speakers are awesome but not cheap.

It's difficult and expensive to design good speakers that go low in the bass and are still very accurate.

The large woofers of the past were often distorted even though they played low. Listen for bass that is "tight", not booming.

Most speakers these days are designed with home theater in mind to be used with a subwoofer. There is nothing wrong with that. What you need to do is to make sure that the subwoofer is set up to integrate with the other speakers so they blend seamlessly. This is not always done correctly hence you may have too much or too little bass effect.

There are many speaker manufacturers out there. Best Buy is really not the place to listen to speakers. For the mass-market I would go to Tweeter even though they are not perfect, they seem to have higher qulaity products and more knowledge of them.

If you can, go to a high end audio/video store in your town to audition speakers.

[cawgijoe]

If you want a speaker that does not require a sub for home theater, go for a new Thiel CS3.7 or a used Thiel CS3.6 or CS6.0.

These speakers are awesome but not cheap.

It's difficult and expensive to design good speakers that go low in the bass and are still very accurate.

The large woofers of the past were often distorted even though they played low.

Most speakers these days are designed with home theater in mind to be used with a subwoofer. There is nothing wrong with that. What you need to do is to make sure that the subwoofer is set up to integrate with the other speakers so they blend seamlessly. This is not always done correctly hence you may have too much or too little bass effect.

There are many speaker manufacturers out there. Best Buy is really not the place to listen to speakers. For the mass-market I would go to Tweeter even though they are not perfect, they seem to have higher qulaity products and more knowledge of them.

If you can, go to a high end audio/video store in your town to audition speakers.

[cawgijoe]

Sorry....hic-cup....double post....please remove the second one....

[Flea77]

Originally Posted by cawgijoe

If you want a speaker that does not require a sub for home theater, go for a new Thiel CS3.7 or a used Thiel CS3.6 or CS6.0.

These speakers are awesome but not cheap.

You misunderstand. I already have a sub, and plan on continuing to use it, the problem is that all the "home theater" speakers I have looked at have very small drivers which I do not feel can produce low enough frequencies to correctly reproduce mids AND bass that are needed to cover the frequencies down to where the sub will correctly blend in.

It's difficult and expensive to design good speakers that go low in the bass and are still very accurate.

No argument here, although I will also point out it also has quite a bit to do with cabinet design as well.

The large woofers of the past were often distorted even though they played low.

I would say the old cheap ones, yes. Of course that partly depends on your definition of "old" :-)

Most speakers these days are designed with home theater in mind to be used with a subwoofer. There is nothing wrong with that. What you need to do is to make sure that the subwoofer is set up to integrate with the other speakers so they blend seamlessly. This is not always done correctly hence you may have too much or too little bass effect.

I completely agree, but once again my point is that I do not see how you can "blend seemlessly" from a 5.25" mid to a 12" sub. From a 5.25" mid to a 12" woofer, yes, subwoofer, no.

For example last night I watched House on TV, in the intro to the show during the music there were bass notes that fit right where I am talking about, they played through the 12" woofers on my front left and right speakers, but NOT through the sub. That is what I am trying not to lose.

There are many speaker manufacturers out there. Best Buy is really not the place to listen to speakers. For the mass-market I would go to Tweeter even though they are not perfect, they seem to have higher qulaity products and more knowledge of them.

If you can, go to a high end audio/video store in your town to audition speakers.

Well not in my town, but close by, I may have to do that. I am currently looking at the Polk Audio RTi10s and possibilities as they have dual 7" woofers in them which SHOULD be able to do what I want. Thanks for the reply.

Allan

[The Guardian]

You could see if you can find some used Paradigm Studio v2 series speakers perhaps? They only moved to v3 three years ago, the v2's used 8" drivers, the new ones use 7" but have better tweeters (especially the v4's).

[cawgijoe]

Flea77......when looking at speakers.....don't just look at the woofer size.....check the specs to see how low the bass goes and check your subwoofer specs to see where you can crossover to get that seamless effect.

Many ported speakers these days with 6.5 to 8 inch woofers can go quite low in the bass region.

I will look for some reviews and post them here.

[slpbird]

you should take a listen to the definitive bp7000 series towers. The little bp7006 have 8inch subs and two 8inch passive radiators. When i heard these things play I thought the slesman was playing tricks on me.

[cawgijoe]

This should help....

http://www.hometheatermag.com/buyers...ers/#whattobuy

[T-Town Oil]

great link caw