Yahoo article on 3D predicted to be huge flop

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by FinalEvangelion

Is it just me? Or haved the naysayers moved from Blu-ray to this now? The same with HDTVs in the late 90s as well.

It's just you.

I really haven't seen anyone actually hate the concept. What seems to be pretty much universal is their hatred of the execution of the concept.

It pretty much centers around the glasses, the sea-change in HDMI standards that orphans all current equipment, and the lack of media available.

This isn't the format war all over again, and every controversy that comes up is not a parallel to that.

[Blu-Dog]

robinandtami said,
"It's not so much hate as it is realism. Even many that would easily qualify as "early adopters" are not eager to go out and buy new equipment to get 3D in the home."

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think it is more sour grapes. People that know they want it but want to talk themselves out of jumping in. So it is "3D is evil" (and then insane excuse for it), "3D is a fad that will pass", "3d is something you only want when out", "you can't watch more then a few minutes of 3D"....

At one point, I though you were serious about this topic. It appears that you and some other fellow (who both spell "whining" with two n's, and do so frequently) may not be very serious about this at all.

robinandtami raise a very valid point; adoption will be expensive for serious Blu proponents, who have, in some cases, purchased multiple Blu rigs to enjoy this format. Repeatedly, when these folks state their reservations about 3D, you paint all of them with contempt, saying things that have little or no relation to what they actually say.

I have no idea what your current investment is in this technology. Some folks in this group have spent a considerable sum, and encouraged others to do so as well. This has been, until this point, a pretty successful effort, with 4,500,000 Blu players sold in just the last three months in the United States.

This format will be torpedoed based on the manufacturer's decision to roll out HDMI formats with a greater eye to security, than to bandwidth. While making sure that piracy was stamped out, they overlooked the real need for high speed data transfer, and now announce this huge "oops, you have to buy all new stuff" even as the introduce obsolete equipment.

Just for fun, take a look at SonyStyle, and see how they've been forced to blow out some of their lesser TV models - since they have absolutely no HDMI 1.4 gear to sell. This entire mess is going to cost them a fortune.

I'm getting the real impression that you don't have a significant investment in Blu technology, currently. It's possible your entire investment in HDMI compliant gear is in a very low number.

For many adopters, especially early and consistent supporters of Blu, it is very high. You castigate them as "whiners" (that's the correct spelling), people with "sour grapes", etc.

Let us know what you've invested, Mr. P., and why others should adopt this new format and dispose of their old equipment if they want to see 3D in the current scheme.

[Nick4Blu_81]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

robinandtami said,
"It's not so much hate as it is realism. Even many that would easily qualify as "early adopters" are not eager to go out and buy new equipment to get 3D in the home."



At one point, I though you were serious about this topic. It appears that you and some other fellow (who both spell "whining" with two n's, and do so frequently) may not be very serious about this at all.

robinandtami raise a very valid point; adoption will be expensive for serious Blu proponents, who have, in some cases, purchased multiple Blu rigs to enjoy this format. Repeatedly, when these folks state their reservations about 3D, you paint all of them with contempt, saying things that have little or no relation to what they actually say.

I have no idea what your current investment is in this technology. Some folks in this group have spent a considerable sum, and encouraged others to do so as well. This has been, until this point, a pretty successful effort, with 4,500,000 Blu players sold in just the last three months in the United States.

This format will be torpedoed based on the manufacturer's decision to roll out HDMI formats with a greater eye to security, than to bandwidth. While making sure that piracy was stamped out, they overlooked the real need for high speed data transfer, and now announce this huge "oops, you have to buy all new stuff" even as the introduce obsolete equipment.

Just for fun, take a look at SonyStyle, and see how they've been forced to blow out some of their lesser TV models - since they have absolutely no HDMI 1.4 gear to sell. This entire mess is going to cost them a fortune.

I'm getting the real impression that you don't have a significant investment in Blu technology, currently. It's possible your entire investment in HDMI compliant gear is in a very low number.

For many adopters, especially early and consistent supporters of Blu, it is very high. You castigate them as "whiners" (that's the correct spelling), people with "sour grapes", etc.

Let us know what you've invested, Mr. P., and why others should adopt this new format and dispose of their old equipment if they want to see 3D in the current scheme.

You have completely summed up every thought on this matter that Ive ever had. Thank you!

[Anthony P]

robinandtami raise a very valid point;

which one? "realism"? you never posted anything realistic and when flaws in your arguments are pointed out such as
"why would it be an outside thing that people don't want to use at home" or other BS you posted you fall back to the only reason which anyone can see is sour grapes "I paid too much for my gear and I don't want to upgrade". But then when it is pointed out that you don't need to upgrade and you can enjoy it in 2D you complain, when it is pointed out you can upgrade a bit (find a player that does anaglyph....) you complain it is not good enough. You never posted anything remotely realistic. I don't go into threads on topics that I don't care about, why do you? but then when it is pointed out that it is sour grapes and you can't be happy for others who are willing to spend because they want something better, you think it is unrealistic.

Let us know what you've invested, Mr. P., and why others should adopt this new format and dispose of their old equipment if they want to see 3D in the current scheme.

what I invested in my HT is unimportant, it is a lot by many standards, just the seating probably cost more then your three TVs. And what I invest is also irrelevant because like everyone else to do it properly means new gear in the HT, new projector, new receiver (but that I have been looking to upgrade anyways) and new BD player. I don't look at spending other peoples money, but if someone is posting and reading 3D threads it should because they are interested in the topic and willing to spend, within their means, not people that will never do 3D at home because it is a fad and too expensive and pushed by evil corporations that want to suck your wallet dry.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

which one? "realism"? you never posted anything realistic and when flaws in your arguments are pointed out such as
"why would it be an outside thing that people don't want to use at home" or other BS you posted you fall back to the only reason which anyone can see is sour grapes "I paid too much for my gear and I don't want to upgrade".

You're paraphrasing my comments, inaccurately. Feel free to quote any of my posts directly. I won't need to explain them, they're very clear, and don't match what you just wrote.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But then when it is pointed out that you don't need to upgrade and you can enjoy it in 2D you complain, when it is pointed out you can upgrade a bit (find a player that does anaglyph....) you complain it is not good enough. You never posted anything remotely realistic. I don't go into threads on topics that I don't care about, why do you? but then when it is pointed out that it is sour grapes and you can't be happy for others who are willing to spend because they want something better, you think it is unrealistic.

Once again...what is your investment in non-HDMI 1.4 hardware? Please understand that this isn't an elitist request. It appears that either you are very well off, and have no problem with a complete reboot of your purchases, or that you have little or no personal stake in any pre-HDMI 1.4 equipment, and have little reason to be perturbed by what's been purveyed to the folks who have spent significant amounts of hard-earned cash.

Either way, it would help explain the disdain you show for folks who have supported Blu, both in the early phase of its lifespan, and as recently as purchases made on this date.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

what I invested in my HT is unimportant, it is a lot by many standards, just the seating probably cost more then your three TVs.

Seating is not HDMI 1.4 compliant, and you will not have to repurchase it.

Receivers, televisions, cables, and of course Blu players are quite relevant. I'm not doing a wallet check here. What I'm wondering is, will a complete repurchase of HDMI 1.4 compliant hardware cause you any kind of problem? If it does cause a problem, it's a mystery to me why you're so gung-ho on handing this gear to some homeless person.

If it doesn't cause you a problem, and you have disdain for those who do have a problem with it, it speaks volumes about your view of your fellow Blu enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

And what I invest is also irrelevant because like everyone else to do it properly means new gear in the HT, new projector, new receiver (but that I have been looking to upgrade anyways) and new BD player. I don't look at spending other peoples money, but if someone is posting and reading 3D threads it should because they are interested in the topic and willing to spend, within their means, not people that will never do 3D at home because it is a fad and too expensive and pushed by evil corporations that want to suck your wallet dry.

My friend - I have never seen evil or greed that wasn't fueled, ultimately, by stupidity. Mandating a whole new HDMI format, orphaning a base of 17,500,000 players, and 71,000,000 television sets, was based on shortsighted stupidity on someone's part. Call it evil; call it greed; call it bad planning; call it whatever you like. It's a bad idea.

I am a hard core, freebooting capitalist. I earn my money by taking the long view, and protecting my clients and customers. Loyalty from my customer base, over a period of more than two decades, has given me a reliable income and repeat business.

Support for corporations that have the same philosophy is something I've done for quite some time. Happy with what I've seen in Blu-Ray, to this point, has left me being quite a happy consumer, despite all the hitches (changing audio formats, updates, meaningless bells and whistles like BD-Live, etc.).

In any case, I don't consider HDMI 1.4 an "upgrade". It's a correction for an engineering screwup, funded by the great unwashed public, specifically Blu owners who got hustled into buying gear a bit too soon to be called a wise purchase.

A group of engineers were tasked with a fast delivery of 3D content, distributed in recorded format for resale on Blu disks. Avatar fever, basically. Engineering constraints, within that format, mandated that 1080p signals be encoded twice on the disk, and delivered to the screen, with each data stream arriving at the same speed that 2D is delivered at.

They immediately discovered the hitch; absolutely no foresight had been employed when previous standards were issued, which were limited to one secure data stream. So they needed a new standard, or the whole thing would collapse to 1080i, and it wouldn't smell right.

But existing hardware for HDMI was designed for security, not highly increased speed. It isn't the cable - it's the encode-decode circuitry, which was done on the fly, and apparently, on the cheap. Worse, it's hard-wired into the guts of all devices in the data stream, so it's not a chip than can be replaced - another demon born of security fears.

It's too slow, because they were in a rush to control the handshake, and once they were done with that, they didn't bother with better engineering work for higher data rates. No "upgrade" was needed.

So, here we are. Shortsighted standards, blowing off every earnest customer trusting a Blu standard that simply didn't cut the mustard. I can't figure out why HDMI 1.3 was even released. Wholesale replacement to 1.4 was the only way to engineer this, and I don't fault the engineers.

Do whatever you like, but this Marie Antoinette pose you're striking rings a bit false. If you're wealthy enough to replace some significant gear, that's great. It doesn't mean that folks who can't do that are screwed up, or jealous. They just don't want to line up and support your standard.

I'm glad that you've spent well over $16,000 in home theater seating. Anyway, let us know what you're throwing out - maybe we'll hang out by your trashcans, see if we can grab the stuff before some homeless guy staggers off with it.

[mjbethancourt]

If you want D-Box motion code with your movies, you have to invest a few grand in the equipment. If you want 3-D with your home video, you might have to shell out to have the most current equipment. Always having the latest new toy comes at a high price. Deal with it. Once upon a time, it was your turn, when you spent up to have Blu-ray and HDTV before everyone else... now, it's someone else's turn.

[KingLeonidas300]

I am not against the concept but I think I am with the majority that I do not plan on replacing my equipment in order to watch TV or films in 3D.

I have seen many threads and comments about how people are not happy with the selection of blus and many of the catalog films are still not out or they are on blu but the transfer is no better than the DVD version.

I am happy with what I have and I say if the format interest you, then go for it. It's just not for me.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

If you want D-Box motion code with your movies, you have to invest a few grand in the equipment. If you want 3-D with your home video, you might have to shell out to have the most current equipment. Always having the latest new toy comes at a high price. Deal with it.

You want everyone to pay for production of 3D content, and not be able to see it? Your solution is, "deal with it"?

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Once upon a time, it was your turn, when you spent up to have Blu-ray and HDTV before everyone else... now, it's someone else's turn.

4.5 million Blu players sold in the last three months does not match up well with, "when you spent up to have Blu-ray and HDTV before everyone else..."

Marie Antoinette is alive and kicking.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

You want everyone to pay for production of 3D content, and not be able to see it? Your solution is, "deal with it"?



4.5 million Blu players sold in the last three months does not match up well with, "when you spent up to have Blu-ray and HDTV before everyone else..."

Marie Antoinette is alive and kicking.

You don't have to pay for anything, except taxes. Don't be ridiculous. So the R&D costs of home 3D get defrayed across the various revenue streams of the companies producing it. So what? By that rationale, Microsoft owes me an X-Box, because some of the cost of the software I bought from them went to cover R&D for the X-Box, which I don't want to pay for. Should I be outraged? Of course not, that would be stupid. I voluntarily bought their products, how they invest their revenue is their own business, and if they raise prices on something to cover R&D for something else, that is also their business. You're not being asked to "pay for someone else's luxury", you're being offered a product, at a particular price, and you can take it or leave it. If you want to take that attitude, then you may as well never buy anything ever again, because odds are, no matter what you buy, some of that revenue is going to pay for the development of another product which you will not buy.

If you bought a Blu-ray player, you got what you paid for. If you want 3D, pay for that, too. If you want to have it before everyone else, it's going to be expensive, and you're going to be replacing something that already works just fine and which probably cost you a lot of money. If you want a better price, and more use of what you've already bought, THEN WAIT. Those are the facts of consumer electronics... are you new to this, or something? That has nothing to do with Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake". There's always going to be new stuff that costs more money. There are things I wish I could buy, too; but I've been around long enough to be fully familiar with the concepts of "obsolescence", "bleeding-edge", and "costly upgrade". You may as well get mad about every new product that comes along and makes you feel like you "need" it. What difference does it make whether you bought your player in the last three months, or four years ago? There is no moratorium on new tech, companies don't have a responsibility to say "we're pulling this off the market now, because in a few months we're making a better one and we don't want all you people to feel ripped-off".

You're whipping up drama over nothing. It's not going to "kill the format". New stuff comes out all the time. Did going two-layer kill DVD because older players couldn't do it? Of course not. Honestly, I just don't understand some of the hysterics people put themselves into. You're making yourself miserable by your own choice.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You don't have to pay for anything, except taxes. Don't be ridiculous.

The ridiculous idea is that folks who don't have 3d should stop paying for it, since it's not a tax.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

So the R&D costs of home 3D get defrayed across the various revenue streams of the companies producing it. So what?

"So what" is not a question. "Revenue streams" flow downhill from the wallets of the user base, my friend.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

By that rationale, Microsoft owes me an X-Box, because some of the cost of the software I bought from them went to cover R&D for the X-Box, which I don't want to pay for. Should I be outraged?

If you accept that rationale, yes. I don't; it's your rationale, not mine. X-Box doesn't have two teirs of games.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Of course not, that would be stupid.

At last, we agree.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I voluntarily bought their products, how they invest their revenue is their own business, and if they raise prices on something to cover R&D for something else, that is also their business.

We're talking about an industry standard, not one company. I'd prefer to leave analogies out of this thing. It's a pretty clear stand-alone issue.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You're not being asked to "pay for someone else's luxury", you're being offered a product, at a particular price, and you can take it or leave it. If you want to take that attitude, then you may as well never buy anything ever again, because odds are, no matter what you buy, some of that revenue is going to pay for the development of another product which you will not buy.

That's the problem with analogies. I don't see a clear analogy from your examples.

This is about 71 million televisions, and 17.5 million Blu players (including every one on the shelf waiting to be sold), being left out of a new standard. My concern isn't about whether or not I personally buy into it. My concern is that wider adoption of the entire Blu standard will be delayed, based on the confusion between broadcast standards and recorded standards, and the announcement of obsolescence with the core standard tying in all devices in the Blu stream - televisions, players, cables, and in many cases, receivers.

It's bigger than my wallet or yours.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

If you bought a Blu-ray player, you got what you paid for. If you want 3D, pay for that, too. If you want to have it before everyone else, it's going to be expensive, and you're going to be replacing something that already works just fine and which probably cost you a lot of money. If you want a better price, and more use of what you've already bought, THEN WAIT. Those are the facts of consumer electronics... are you new to this, or something? That has nothing to do with Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake".

The individual decisions people make, are of course, their own. As a Blu advocate, I've discussed the format with users in detail, and in good faith - over issues like how to handle firmware updates (via burned disc, or getting a player with internet connection, BD-Live capability, audio formats, and so on).

This is a whole new level - maybe, it seems that there is huge pushback on this standard - but something is rotten, and this glib "if you don't want to replace all your gear, I don't care" sounds like a pretty dismissive, let them eat cake thing.

Now I'm going to watch sales plunge based on people who have always been hesitant to accept this standard, saying "I told you so, it will never last."

A good response is not to blow them off with dismissive comments.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

There's always going to be new stuff that costs more money. There are things I wish I could buy, too; but I've been around long enough to be fully familiar with the concepts of "obsolescence", "bleeding-edge", and "costly upgrade". You may as well get mad about every new product that comes along and makes you feel like you "need" it. What difference does it make whether you bought your player in the last three months, or four years ago? There is no moratorium on new tech, companies don't have a responsibility to say "we're pulling this off the market now, because in a few months we're making a better one and we don't want all you people to feel ripped-off".

It remains to be seen if this thing will fly.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You're whipping up drama over nothing. It's not going to "kill the format". New stuff comes out all the time. Did going two-layer kill DVD because older players couldn't do it? Of course not. Honestly, I just don't understand some of the hysterics people put themselves into. You're making yourself miserable by your own choice.

1. Let me know in what post I claimed this will kill the format.
2. Hysterics are for people who are looking at pie in the sky, and throw a fit when someone says they won't pay for a slice. Think about it.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

You're paraphrasing my comments, inaccurately. Feel free to quote any of my posts directly. I won't need to explain them, they're very clear, and don't match what you just wrote.

they match it exactly. trolling all the 3D threads crying that it is evil because you bought your 1080p TV which is not 3D capable and the evil BDA added this standard and many are interested in it.

Once again...what is your investment in non-HDMI 1.4 hardware?

0$ there is no 1.4 HW. What does it matter. none of the 8 displays I have going from old CRTs taking up place to the 60" 1080p HDTV in the FR or the 1080p FP in the HT can show 3D.

It appears that either you are very well off, and have no problem with a complete reboot of your purchases, or that you have little or no personal stake in any pre-HDMI 1.4 equipment, and have little reason to be perturbed by what's been purveyed to the folks who have spent significant amounts of hard-earned cash.

not at all, middle class income, and only a single income. But HT/movies is one of the things I like and one that takes a high amount of my income. My car is a10 year old Civic, I have not been on a real vacation in many years (7+)...

This is the simple fact, NO ONE IS HOLDING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD forcing to buy a new 3D display or a 3D player. All the 3D BD movies will play on any TV you now have and on the player you now have, the only thing is you won't see them in 3D. If someone is less of a scrooge then you and willing to pay a bit, there will probably be players that output anaglyph which would work with any display, someone that has a HD ready TV and PS3 might be able to watch them with 0$ to invest, someone that does not have a 3D ready TV might get away with just a new TV and people that can afford to invest more can get better equipment and have a better experience. What is wrong with that. Should I go to Audi forums or Ferrari forums (or threads)crying that those cars should not exist because I have a Civic and it is all the car anyone needs and it is evil to offer more for people that are willing to spend more on cars?

Either way, it would help explain the disdain you show for folks who have supported Blu, both in the early phase of its lifespan, and as recently as purchases made on this date.

I don't have disdain for people that supported BD, hell I don't have disdain for people that supported HD DVD or people that are still DVD only. I have disdain for cry baby trolls that say "I am not interested in 3D" but for some reason the only time they come here is to BS about the evils of 3D and why it should not exist.

Seating is not HDMI 1.4 compliant, and you will not have to repurchase it.

Receivers, televisions, cables, and of course Blu players are quite relevant. I'm not doing a wallet check here. What I'm wondering is, will a complete repurchase of HDMI 1.4 compliant hardware cause you any kind of problem?

you don't need new cables. As for "problems" it will take what it takes $ wise. Will I be buying a 3D projector and 3D BD player next week? no, none are even out yet, when the equipment comes out I will see what it costs and what I can afford. If it is not this year, it will be next year, and if, God forbid, bad luck means it is not this year then maybe the next or the one after that.

If it does cause a problem, it's a mystery to me why you're so gung-ho on handing this gear to some homeless person.

I am gung-ho for two reasons
1) without it I can't watch in real 3D movies shot n 3D, I can't see the movie the way it is
2) sooner or later it will make it to home users, the earlier the better.

I won't hand my old stuff to some unknown, when I upgrade something, it either goes to a less important room or I give it to my siblings and they use it in their room.

If it doesn't cause you a problem, and you have disdain for those who do have a problem with it, it speaks volumes about your view of your fellow Blu enthusiasts.

I don't have an issue with someone that does not post in 3D threads because he is legitimately not interested in it. I don't have an issue with someone that
decides just to say once, "I am not interested in it for now because I can't afford the upgrade". I have an issue with hypocrites that post BS because of sour grapes

My friend - I have never seen evil or greed that wasn't fueled, ultimately, by stupidity. Mandating a whole new HDMI format, orphaning a base of 17,500,000 players, and 71,000,000 television sets, was based on shortsighted stupidity on someone's part. Call it evil; call it greed; call it bad planning; call it whatever you like. It's a bad idea.

so in other words because HDMI 1.3 (or 1.3.1) can't do the job right a3D standard for homes should not exist? How would screwing up 3D help me (and most people) that need new equipment anyways when more then 90% of TVs and 100% of players don't do 3D right now so they will need to upgrade them anyways.

In any case, I don't consider HDMI 1.4 an "upgrade". It's a correction for an engineering screwup, funded by the great unwashed public, specifically Blu owners who got hustled into buying gear a bit too soon to be called a wise purchase.

how is 1.3 or even 1.3.1 a screw up? it did the job it was meant to do, it did everything it had to 4 years ago when it was created how where they supposed to have added capabilities for something that did not exist yet?

[rkolinski]

This is my FIRST comment ever regarding 3D in the home and it is coming from a 60 year old early adopter of all things high tech since 1970. For just background information, I've gone from an Empire turntable, Sansui 5000 receiver & Teac 10 inch reel to reel w/an outboard DNR unit to my current system. I've owned 8 track, cassette, RCA CED Video, LD, Beta, VHS, SuperBeta, Super VHS, DVD, DVD-A & SACD (these last 2 formats have definitely been adopted by the masses ), THX, 10 foot C-Band dish w/a receiver to pickup the earliest HD broadcast for a component input equipped 55 inch Panasonic Projection HDTV. [This doesn't even include various game machines and computers.] Now I own what is listed below. Not a bad system and I'm generally pleased with how things work. And I've gone through the pain in the butt of having to continuously update firmware from Anchor Bay/DVDO, Onkyo, Panasonic and Sony. [Don't even bother to ask me what I really think about HDMI & firmware updates but I think most of the population will quite a number of years before the majority adopts Blu-ray - not one of my neighbors & I know all of them, have gone beyond an HDTV hooked up to a satellite receiver via HDMI, if even that). Generally speaking, I'm pretty happy with how Blu-ray is going as a format (even though I still experience handshake issues and have to grab my Harmony One to shut off and then turn on a particular component to resolve one of those handshake issues). And let's see, we've gone from HDMI v. 1.1, 1.2. 1.3a, 1.3b and now they are introducing 1.4! Like I mentioned above, I'm not only for video and/or audio advancement but I clearly embrace it.

With this being said, 3D is the first new technological innovation which I do not intend to embrace for many years, if ever. I simply have no desire to see Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago nor other classic films in the new format. That doesn't mean I won't go to see Avatar in 3D. However, right now I have no desire to continue the upgraditis when it comes to the new format. There are more important things in life like seeing more of the world and getting a decent digital camera (because 35mm has clearly gone almost extinct like the dinosaurs). Personally, I have this FEAR that 3D will be like DVD-A & SACD! I remember we were promised great things with those upgrades in audio and where have they gone. Personally, I think 3D will have a niche of the market but will very much be similar to DVD-A & SACD. Just MHO for what it is worth!

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by rkolinski

With this being said, 3D is the first new technological innovation which I do not intend to embrace for many years, if ever. I simply have no desire to see Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago nor other classic films in the new format. That doesn't mean I won't go to see Avatar in 3D. However, right now I have no desire to continue the upgraditis when it comes to the new format.

This sentiment is being repeated frequently in AV forums through out the net. New formats have always depended heavily upon the early adopters to get off the ground, and it seems that a majority of early adopters are just not that excited for this.

I do happen to have a 3D ready TV, although that was not a consideration at all when I purchased it. IF my BD player can be updated to display 3D in SD, I will in all likelihood spring for the approximately $300 shutter glass kit so I can check this out. If not.... I'll be waiting until 3D blu-ray players are well under $200 to give it a go. If I were in the same boat with the majority of HT enthusiasts and had to purchase a new screen too to have 3D in the home... well I don't think I'd find it very cost vs. return efficient at all and I wouldn't get into 3D for some years.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

they match it exactly. trolling all the 3D threads crying that it is evil because you bought your 1080p TV which is not 3D capable and the evil BDA added this standard and many are interested in it.

Two terms I won't use in civil discussion: "Fanboy", and "troll".

Anyone who can see more than one side of an issue, is not a "fanboy". I see no fanboys here. Not one. Everyone has issues with some facet of this thing, including you.

I also don't see that deep interest in discussing different facets of a topic, even if they differ from the views of others, is "trolling". I certainly see the real antagonism towards this new 3D standard in more than one forum - it's in virtually every forum on the Internet. The usual response is, what is this nonsence about my gear being obsolete, which is a good question.

Use your own powers of persuasion to discuss this issue. It's not a crime to concede a point, or look at the whole issue. At this time, it appears that proponents of the 3D format, in this particular forum, are dismissive of anyone who doesn't jump on the bandwagon. Insults follow, with terms like "ignorant", "troll", and so on tossed around.

I'm persistent, but at least I try to be courteous. Care to join me?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by rkolinski

This is my FIRST comment ever regarding 3D in the home and it is coming from a 60 year old early adopter of all things high tech since 1970. For just background information, I've gone from an Empire turntable, Sansui 5000 receiver & Teac 10 inch reel to reel w/an outboard DNR unit to my current system. I've owned 8 track, cassette, RCA CED Video, LD, Beta, VHS, SuperBeta, Super VHS, DVD, DVD-A & SACD (these last 2 formats have definitely been adopted by the masses ), THX, 10 foot C-Band dish w/a receiver to pickup the earliest HD broadcast for a component input equipped 55 inch Panasonic Projection HDTV. [This doesn't even include various game machines and computers.] Now I own what is listed below. Not a bad system and I'm generally pleased with how things work. And I've gone through the pain in the butt of having to continuously update firmware from Anchor Bay/DVDO, Onkyo, Panasonic and Sony. [Don't even bother to ask me what I really think about HDMI & firmware updates but I think most of the population will quite a number of years before the majority adopts Blu-ray - not one of my neighbors & I know all of them, have gone beyond an HDTV hooked up to a satellite receiver via HDMI, if even that). Generally speaking, I'm pretty happy with how Blu-ray is going as a format (even though I still experience handshake issues and have to grab my Harmony One to shut off and then turn on a particular component to resolve one of those handshake issues). And let's see, we've gone from HDMI v. 1.1, 1.2. 1.3a, 1.3b and now they are introducing 1.4! Like I mentioned above, I'm not only for video and/or audio advancement but I clearly embrace it.

With this being said, 3D is the first new technological innovation which I do not intend to embrace for many years, if ever. I simply have no desire to see Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Zhivago nor other classic films in the new format. That doesn't mean I won't go to see Avatar in 3D. However, right now I have no desire to continue the upgraditis when it comes to the new format. There are more important things in life like seeing more of the world and getting a decent digital camera (because 35mm has clearly gone almost extinct like the dinosaurs). Personally, I have this FEAR that 3D will be like DVD-A & SACD! I remember we were promised great things with those upgrades in audio and where have they gone. Personally, I think 3D will have a niche of the market but will very much be similar to DVD-A & SACD. Just MHO for what it is worth!

I was inconsolable when my Revox died. No way I could have afforded it as new. I had inherited it...but it went to a good home, got repaired by somebody who could afford to have it done right (this was sometime in the late Eighties), and last I heard (about six years ago) it's still going strong.

My experiences are similar to yours, with the exception of Betamax...never went down that road, for the same reasons I didn't go with HD-DVD - limited capacity spelled doom for that format.

Thanks for your comments, I have very similar sentiments.

[Blu-Dog]

I'll just cut to the chase.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

how is 1.3 or even 1.3.1 a screw up? it did the job it was meant to do, it did everything it had to 4 years ago when it was created how where they supposed to have added capabilities for something that did not exist yet?

It doesn't have the bandwidth to handle 3D, a pretty obvious thing. And it's not a modular change-out, either - entire devices need to be scrapped.

I have a serious problem with it. I actually am intrigued by the idea of 3D, which I think is currently impractical - the glasses will be the death of this particular phase, I think.

I also think that conflicting broadcast standards for 3D are really going to heave a brick. While you and other 3D proponents are pretty dismissive the 71 million TV's out there that can't use this thing, advertisers pay very close attention to those viewers. So let's keep this out of the world of trolls and crybabies, and stay closer to the real world.

Someone needed to manage and control the connectivity formats for all devices, early on. They didn't. They blew stuff out to the pipeline, and now we're going to see an awful lot of it sit there, while breathless advocates tout how dazzling this all looks, once you discard all of your current gear.

And all because it requires HDMI 1.4 - it's not making a lot of sense.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

The ridiculous idea is that folks who don't have 3d should stop paying for it, since it's not a tax.

Don't buy 3D titles that you can't use, and don't buy titles if you don't like the price. It is as simple as that. The notion that you are somehow "paying" for someone else's 3D blu-ray is about as ridiculous as if DVD consumers started complaining that they are being forced to "pay for" your blu-rays. You are no more "paying for someone else's 3D blu-ray" than you are paying for the cars, meals, etc. for everybody who draws an income from the home-video industry. You will make yourself crazy, worrying about such selective resentments over what happens to your money after you've spent it. You just have no point with that one.
They're offering you their products on a take-it-or-leave-it proposition, either you find the price acceptable or not, and how they cover their expenses is their problem, not yours.

Are you also raw about Disney's decision to bundle DVD's with their blu-rays? I'd hate to see them "forcing" you to buy something you don't want.

"So what" is not a question.

Yes it is: as in "so, what's your point?", or more explicitly, "how does that support your case? Because from my point of view, it doesn't".

"Revenue streams" flow downhill from the wallets of the user base, my friend.

No kidding, I believe I pointed that out. How they choose to invest that revenue is really not your concern, unless you're a shareholder. Either you want their product and you buy it, or you don't. I guess I should just start up a petition right now, complaining to the studios that some of the revenue from the titles that I buy goes toward the production of titles that I don't want to buy. That is not an analogy, that is exactly what you are arguing for.

If you accept that rationale, yes. I don't; it's your rationale, not mine.

That certainly seems to be your "rationale" from where I'm sitting; and it most certainly is not mine. That's why we call it a disagreement.

X-Box doesn't have two teirs of games.

Yes they do... not that it matters, the point was that money that I spent (which is no longer mine, since I spent it) was used to "subsidize" a product that I don't want. This is apparently an outrageous concept to you. May as well be outraged by all R&D and all technological progress, because most everything out there is developed with revenue from some other product.

We're talking about an industry standard, not one company. I'd prefer to leave analogies out of this thing. It's a pretty clear stand-alone issue...
That's the problem with analogies. I don't see a clear analogy from your examples.

... Yes, let's leave analogies out of this, they're just too darn effective at illustrating the absurdity of your argument. Awwww, the NERVE! Using good, relevant examples to explain my viewpoint. How dreadful of me.

Way to go, chief: when all else fails, resort to passive-aggressive forms of "shut up!" I think you have a future in politics.

This is about 71 million televisions, and 17.5 million Blu players (including every one on the shelf waiting to be sold), being left out of a new standard.

Which is the eventual fate of every single electronics product line ever sold.
And it's not as if they don't work anymore, they just won't do 3D.
Oh no! 17.5 million blu-ray players lack a feature (that doesn't even really exist yet) that most people have no interest in ever using! Will our suffering never end? That's almost as horrible as those millions of blu-ray players that weren't BD-live compatible! How can we go on living? Blu-ray is doomed, DOOOOOOOOMED!!!
There's millions of DVD players on the shelves that won't play blu-rays... should we be outraged over that, as well?

My concern isn't about whether or not I personally buy into it. My concern is that wider adoption of the entire Blu standard will be delayed, based on the confusion between broadcast standards and recorded standards, and the announcement of obsolescence with the core standard tying in all devices in the Blu stream - televisions, players, cables, and in many cases, receivers.

God forbid that after 4 years, HDMI 1.3 should be superceded by a better technology. If we were talking computer components (which, really, we are), then HDMI 1.3 is a dinosaur ripe for an update.

It's bigger than my wallet or yours.

Most things ARE bigger than my wallet. Yet, broke as I am, I see no need to be shrill and resentful towards the luxuries I can't afford.

The individual decisions people make, are of course, their own. As a Blu advocate, I've discussed the format with users in detail, and in good faith - over issues like how to handle firmware updates (via burned disc, or getting a player with internet connection, BD-Live capability, audio formats, and so on).

This is a whole new level - maybe, it seems that there is huge pushback on this standard - but something is rotten, and this glib "if you don't want to replace all your gear, I don't care" sounds like a pretty dismissive, let them eat cake thing.

It isn't that I don't care if you don't want to replace your gear, the fact is you do not have to. You don't have to have 3D. Your blu-ray player works just fine, and probably will for many years. So there's a new niche-product that most people will never buy, and that didn't hit the market exactly the way that you wanted it to... big effing deal, how does that ruin your blu-ray player? You are no worse-off now than you were before 3D blu-ray showed at CES. It's not dismissive of anything other than the dubious validity of your argument. We can't all have everything that we want all the time, and having the coolest stuff is expensive. That is a fact, not sanguine elitism. It in no way relates to an eighteenth-century French monarch dismissing the suffering of her people with cake and holidays. If you hate analogies so much, why have you chosen to repeat (several times) an analogy that is not even applicable to this discussion?

Now I'm going to watch sales plunge based on people who have always been hesitant to accept this standard, saying "I told you so, it will never last."

A good response is not to blow them off with dismissive comments.

I wouldn't blow them off with dismissive comments. I'd either explain to them why they are wrong, or (since I'm not an electronics salesman and really don't care what other people buy), I'll just say nothing and assume that they have arbirtrarily made up their mind not to support the standard. Anybody who equates the progressive development of the format as proof that "it will never last" is probably a hopeless case who will latch onto any conceivable reason not to adopt blu-ray. Sales won't plunge on their account, those people weren't buying anyway, and probably never would.

1. Let me know in what post I claimed this will kill the format.

OK, this one, post #22:

This format will be torpedoed based on the manufacturer's decision to roll out HDMI formats with a greater eye to security, than to bandwidth. While making sure that piracy was stamped out, they overlooked the real need for high speed data transfer, and now announce this huge "oops, you have to buy all new stuff" even as the introduce obsolete equipment.

2. Hysterics are for people who are looking at pie in the sky, and throw a fit when someone says they won't pay for a slice. Think about it.

I don't have to think about it, your passive-aggressive candor is quite obvious: you are implying that I am the one being hysterical.
Make up your mind. Am I being hysterical, or dismissive? Can't really be both on the same topic. You are "throwing a fit" about 3D blu-ray, and I'm telling you I think you are totally over-reacting over something that really does not matter. You're the one who's angry and disgruntled, "hysterics" is not applicable to my side of this disagreement. "Throw a fit when someone says they won't pay for a slice"? C'mon, that's exactly what I've said: if you don't want this "pie in the sky", then don't pay for a slice, nobody is making you do it. We had a 3D blu-ray niche-product about two years ago (from Samsung), that wouldn't work with every setup, and there weren't a lot of angry cranks then, in a dither about how it would somehow inexplicably doom the format, and only because two years ago there weren't millions of people emailing the studios asking "when can I get 'Avatar 3D' on blu-ray?"

Further, I must disabuse you of this notion that 3D blu-ray is responsible for the new HDMI 1.4 standard... 1.4 is old news, it has been on the slate, that I know of, for at least the past year. It's just a cable, man. Component Video and S-video weren't exactly a threat to DVD, and it's exactly the same story: you needed to upgrade to the new output standard if you wanted upconverted DVD and better audio, and eight years ago, upgrading to component video cables and getting a new player (and probably also a new TV) was an expensive proposition. It's just not a big deal. What really cracks me up is, in the context of this discussion, thinking of all the people over the past two years who raved about how high-bandwidth HDMI cables are stupid, how nobody will ever need anything better than HDMI 1.2, how the 1.3 standard was a bogus overkill con-job that had five-times the bandwidth that anybody would ever need.

It is clear now that it is really you who are not discussing this matter seriously. You're not making a considered, reasoned case, you're rationalizing a knee-jerk emotional response, and not doing very well. In this rare case, I think AnthonyP is completely 100% correct, (...I kid, Anthony, I kid... I'm sure I agree with you on something at least once a month).

I know you hate my analogy, but it really is just like D-Box: if you want it, shell out for it; if you don't, your blu-rays will work just fine without it, and you'll never need to know what you are missing.

I agree to a great extent with Rkolinski: there's a good chance that it won't really get off the ground, at least in this particular iteration, it's only going to be useful to a small handful of titles, and if you don't want it the solution is to just not buy it and wait for a better option. It is not a threat to the format, no one is harmed, if it flops, then it flops, it doesn't take blu-ray down with it.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Way to go, chief: when all else fails, resort to passive-aggressive forms of "shut up!" I think you have a future in politics.

Too much ad hominem going on. Let's get back to whether or not 3D will be generally accepted, and not who's a turkey for feeling one way or another about it.

[ehaser]

Movies really only have one logical direction to go, and that is from 2D to 3D. The only reason why it's a problem and causing a raucous in the forums is because 3D is happening too soon and isn't compatible with the format almost everyone purchased into just a few years ago. If 3D happened two to three years from now it would be received much better.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ehaser

Movies really only have one logical direction to go, and that is from 2D to 3D. The only reason why it's a problem and causing a raucous in the forums is because 3D is happening too soon and isn't compatible with the format almost everyone purchased into just a few years ago. If 3D happened two to three years from now it would be received much better.

Agreed.

This looks like a reactive rollout - Avatar is a big hit, and the industry found out about it early last year. This was a fast ramp-up, and advertising and hype machines were running full blast.

If this were a truly generational change, with broadcast, recorded media, and hardware standards agreed on with a larger rollout window, it wouldn't be getting as much criticism as it's getting.

We'll see how it goes, but there doesn't appear to be any wholesale "the water's fine" mood going on with the current user base.