HD DVD Advantages?

[Blaumann]

Originally Posted by sparksj

Here is what I'm talking about.

The two pictures are form the same source, but one has been compressed more (as the picture above has). Notice the block grouping on the bottom picture and how it causes the edge of the building to have jagged edges.

Again, I would love to see a close-up comparison of 1080i vs. 1080p, but the file you posted is not apples to apples.

sparksj, the first picture is a screenshot from a MPEG2 1080i HDTV television broadcast on HDNet. It´s not from a HD DVD or a Blu-ray.

Normally i want to stay out of HD DVD <-> Blu-ray threads here on this forum, but posting these kind of screenshots in a thread about HD DVD, well.....

(And yes, i realize the purpose was to show the effects of improper deinterlacing. But these screenshots can easily be mistaken as a comparison between "1080i" HD DVD and "1080p" Blu-ray, which they are not, not even close.)

[glenn22]

Originally Posted by sparksj

I realize that, But I'm pointing out that the two pictures you posted do not have the same file compression. You can see this in my closeup shot of them. The 1080i picture has the same blocking effect that you see in my example which proves that it was not saved with the same quality setting at the 1080P example. Based on this we do not know whether the jaggies were cause by the compression difference or if they are truly due to 1080i vs. 1080p. It does provide a compeling argument, but for it to prove anything, you would have to compare two files in the same format, with the same file compression. Only then could you truly say the difference was due to the interlacing.

You're right, there is something screwy with the file compression, whoever took the images didn't save them at the same quality level. The blade images for instance at nearly 1MB different in size...

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by Blaumann

(And yes, i realize the purpose was to show the effects of improper deinterlacing. But these screenshots can easily be mistaken as a comparison between "1080i" HD DVD and "1080p" Blu-ray, which they are not, not even close.)

Which is exactly why I repeatedly say that 1080i = 1080p if your tv properly de-interlaces. If is does not, well....

So the fact that the onus is now on the consumer to know this about their current tv which they plan on hooking up to that cheap 1080i player. It is only giving partial facts and misleads customers to believe that these cheap players are equal to the more expensive BR counterpart that are outputting 1080p. Outputting 1080p removing the burden of finding a tv that properly de-interlaces 1080i from the consumer.

[sparksj]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Which is exactly why I repeatedly say that 1080i = 1080p if your tv properly de-interlaces. If is does not, well....

So the fact that the onus is now on the consumer to know this about their current tv which they plan on hooking up to that cheap 1080i player. It is only giving partial facts and misleads customers to believe that these cheap players are equal to the more expensive BR counterpart that are outputting 1080p. Outputting 1080p removing the burden of finding a tv that properly de-interlaces 1080i from the consumer.

So then are you saying that a 1080i player would be as good as a 1080p player assuming that your TV was good at deinterlacing?

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by sparksj

So then are you saying that a 1080i player would be as good as a 1080p player assuming that your TV was good at deinterlacing?

I'm saying that a 1080i player is not as good as a 1080p player assuming you have no idea what your tv does with interlacing (which is what the majority of people don't know imo)...

Also if we were to look at good in the context of this thread being related to HD DVD players, then the answer is no. A 1080p HD DVD player is not as good as a 1080p BR player as the HD DVD version is limited by bandwidth.

Nice try though....

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

I'm saying that a 1080i player is not as good as a 1080p player assuming you have no idea what your tv does with interlacing (which is what the majority of people don't know imo)...

Also if we were to look at good in the context of this thread being related to HD DVD players, then the answer is no. A 1080p HD DVD player is not as good as a 1080p BR player as the HD DVD version is limited by bandwidth.

Nice try though....

Well not only that, and I truly don't mean this as an HD-DVD put down, but I read in quite a few spots that the 2nd and 3rd Gen 1080p HD DVD players have problems of their own. Including some weird high pitched sound that's output over HDMI and they also don't have 24fps (and there's only 1 with 7.1 sound capabilities). Am I wrong on any of this or was I right at one point but it was fixed now or something?

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by sparksj

So then are you saying that a 1080i player would be as good as a 1080p player assuming that your TV was good at deinterlacing?

For a 1080p24 source, if the signal was sent as 1080i and the other end (TV or processor) put things back together properly, you would not be able to figure out from the output whether the signal was sent as 1080i or 1080p. Just like with data coming back from one of the Mars landers. If NASA or JPL assembled the final picture and asked you what order the data was sent from Mars to Earth, could you do it? Not if it was done right and you didn't have some other knowledge of what order they use. They could send it by quadrants, interlaced, etc., but if all the information eventually gets to them for the final picture, they just need to reconstruct it.

For another analogy, a 1080i signal from a 1080p source is like a waitress opening up a sandwich before taking it to your table, so you have to put it together, instead of putting it completely together herself before taking it to your table.

1080i sources are a whole different discussion, because there is no proper way to convert a 1080i original (where even and odd fields are from different points in time) to 1080p. Just better and worse ways. With 1080p originals sent as 1080i, getting the original 1080p back should be possible (assuming there aren't bit depth issues or things like that).

--Darin

[sparksj]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Also if we were to look at good in the context of this thread being related to HD DVD players, then the answer is no. A 1080p HD DVD player is not as good as a 1080p BR player as the HD DVD version is limited by bandwidth.

Nice try though....

Hey... You got to give me credit for trying.

[canerzi]

Originally Posted by sj001

This is commonly used rhetoric that Ken Graffeo of Universal Studios, the co-chairman of the HD-DVD PG has said, "we aren't worried about the PS3, because gamers don't buy movies". Also, HD-DVD PG's insistence in NOT counting PS3's towards total sales of players.

This is the most absurd area of the whole format war... Not counting PS3's as players.

Now people who are into HD Movies and people who are willing to buy next-gen consoles to play games are not exactly mutually exclusive. So how to evaluate the PS3 users who are also potential blu-ray player consumers? Would you expect them to buy a stand-alone player too? They already have a player. And mind you, when talking about PS3 owners, you are talking about a large group interested in HD media.

This fault logic only makes sense if PS3 owners would never buy a standalone player in the absence of PS3. If PS3 did not exist, then many of them WOULD buy blu-ray players.

[sparksj]

Okay... Those of you who have been reading my posts know that I am an HD DVD owner. But I think I'm pretty open minded about it. I had some bad information up front and I'll admit that. But I'm reformed now...

But... To give credit where credit is due... I saw "Cars" on BR yesterday and it looked freakin great. They really went all out to make sure it looked good on disc and they succeeded. I have read that when Disney viewed it, they said it was almost indistinguishable from the master copy.

I wish all movie studios would put that much effort in to producing quality encoding on discs.

I may have to run out and get a PS3 for Christmas... My Xbox may hate me for it...

Does anyone know if the PS3 will be upgradable to the 2.0 Br format?

[sj001]

Originally Posted by canerzi

This is the most absurd area of the whole format war... Not counting PS3's as players.

Now people who are into HD Movies and people who are willing to buy next-gen consoles to play games are not exactly mutually exclusive. So how to evaluate the PS3 users who are also potential blu-ray player consumers? Would you expect them to buy a stand-alone player too? They already have a player. And mind you, when talking about PS3 owners, you are talking about a large group interested in HD media.

This fault logic only makes sense if PS3 owners would never buy a standalone player in the absence of PS3. If PS3 did not exist, then many of them WOULD buy blu-ray players.

Right. The same example would apply to the HD-DVD drive add-on, if it didn't exist, they might sell more standalones...but wait, maybe they would anyone, because I hear the add-on is a POS.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by sparksj

Does anyone know if the PS3 will be upgradable to the 2.0 Br format?

Not confirmed but many suspect it will be capable.

Do you know if your HD DVD player will be able to play TL51 disks?

[sparksj]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

Not confirmed but many suspect it will be capable.

Do you know if your HD DVD player will be able to play TL51 disks?

I'd like to say it's very likely... But the analyst in me says it will not work on the older HD DVD players. Here's why.

According to the reports, they started testing the new 51CB disk on lder players in August 2007. When I google it today, I can find no information on the results of those tests. If the tests had proven successful, don't you think HD DVD would be brodcasting that out in every way they could.

End result:
If I want to be sure that I'm getting a 51GB capable HD DVD player, I'll have to wait to make for final results and may have to buy a new player. But, If I want a 2.0 capable BR player, I'll also have to wait to make sure the player I get will be compatible. Either way, I'll have to wait, and either way, I may I'll have to get a new player (don't have BR yet). So no big loss .

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by sparksj

I'd like to say it's very likely... But the analyst in me says it will not work on the older HD DVD players. Here's why.

According to the reports, they started testing the new 51CB disk on lder players in August 2007. When I google it today, I can find no information on the results of those tests. If the tests had proven successful, don't you think HD DVD would be brodcasting that out in every way they could.

End result:
If I want to be sure that I'm getting a 51GB capable HD DVD player, I'll have to wait to make for final results and may have to buy a new player. But, If I want a 2.0 capable BR player, I'll also have to wait to make sure the player I get will be compatible. Either way, I'll have to wait, and either way, I may I'll have to get a new player (don't have BR yet). So no big loss .

So much for the "finalized" spec HD DVD throws around as truth...

Your last paragraph is not quite true.

Carrying your thought that a current HD DVD player won't be able to play a TL51 disk, then yes, your out of luck. Go and buy a new player if you want to watch the movie on that TL51 disk.

With BR, a disk with 2.0 content (IME) will not affect the main content - the movie. The movie will be playable by all current BR players but only players meeting the 2.0 spec will be able to access the 2.0 content. Big difference as most people don't care about IME but everyone buying HDM cares about the movie.

End result BR profile 2.0 is not a big deal.

[sj001]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

So much for the "finalized" spec HD DVD throws around as truth...

Your last paragraph is not quite true.

Carrying your thought that a current HD DVD player won't be able to play a TL51 disk, then yes, your out of luck. Go and buy a new player if you want to watch the movie on that TL51 disk.

With BR, a disk with 2.0 content (IME) will not affect the main content - the movie. The movie will be playable by all current BR players but only players meeting the 2.0 spec will be able to access the 2.0 content. Big difference as most people don't care about IME but everyone buying HDM cares about the movie.

End result BR profile 2.0 is not a big deal.

Too me, the IME stuff is kind of gimmicky, I still struggle to understand why someone actually cares about the stuff.

[canerzi]

Originally Posted by sj001

Right. The same example would apply to the HD-DVD drive add-on, if it didn't exist, they might sell more standalones...but wait, maybe they would anyone, because I hear the add-on is a POS.

Well actually what I mean is that PS3 owners are also people interested in HD movies. Toshiba's claim is that they are just gamers and should not be considered as a target market for movies.

So I'm trying to say that ps3 owners could buy a hd-dvd player or a blu-ray player in the absence of ps3. But still, they are both potential customers for hd movies. The same goes for Xbox hd-dvd add-on too. Most gamers are also movie freaks.

[sj001]

Originally Posted by canerzi

Well actually what I mean is that PS3 owners are also people interested in HD movies. Toshiba's claim is that they are just gamers and should not be considered as a target market for movies.

So I'm trying to say that ps3 owners could buy a hd-dvd player or a blu-ray player in the absence of ps3. But still, they are both potential customers for hd movies. The same goes for Xbox hd-dvd add-on too. Most gamers are also movie freaks.

Exactly, I don't know a single gamer that is totally NOT into movies at all.

[sparksj]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

So much for the "finalized" spec HD DVD throws around as truth...

With BR, a disk with 2.0 content (IME) will not affect the main content - the movie. The movie will be playable by all current BR players but only players meeting the 2.0 spec will be able to access the 2.0 content. Big difference as most people don't care about IME but everyone buying HDM cares about the movie.

End result BR profile 2.0 is not a big deal.

True, but since I don't currently have a BR player, I would still need to buy one. Whether I got it now with 1.1 or later with 2.0.

[sparksj]

Originally Posted by sparksj

I'd like to say it's very likely... But the analyst in me says it will not work on the older HD DVD players. Here's why.

According to the reports, they started testing the new 51GB disk on older players in August 2007. When I google it today, I can find no information on the results of those tests. If the tests had proven successful, don't you think HD DVD would be brodcasting that out in every way they could.

Hey. I think I deserve some credirt here... How many HD DVD fans do you know that can admit downfalls of their own system....

You guys might actually slowly be converting me......

[sparksj]

I agree. I don't care about all the extra content stuff. I got bored with the Transformers content after about 10 minutes. I just want the ethernet connection (which I could get now with PS3). But, since I don't currently have a BR player, I figured it would be worth waiting for the final version. You never know if down the road they might include an extra I would actually use that would require the 2.0 player.