Question About Blu-Ray Security

[brianwestermann]

Hello,

I am curious as to the specs that Blu_Ray can detect legal or pirated discs.
As it can, I have heard that games that will be made with this proponent have a security code on them that will be read once and then are no good.

Basing this question on the above info, does that mean I would no longer be able to buy used legal copies of games and movies in my DVD/Game console because the used game's code would be gone?

If so, this is very disheartening news.
Please confirm or clearly explain the blu-ray disc detection to me.
Thanx ahead of time.

[Sony1]

I am also concerned about this copy protection. Hi everyone, I have been following this forum sense 2003, and now finally decided to join in the conversations. This DRM copy protection in the music is bad because I think people will stay away from something that could crash there computers. If they use this with Blue-ray it could be trouble. Maybe this is the reason some of the Movie companies jumped ship from HD-DVD to Blue-Ray? Opine's welcome.

[Marwin]

I think this rumor comes from someone seeing a patent filed for something similar to this idea, but that definitely doesn't mean that they have any plans to use it.

I just don't see this type of security "feature" ever being used as it would do more harm than good (the bad PR would be a nightmare). For example, there would be no way to offer a rental market for games/movies if they were somehow tied to the console/player when they were first used. Also, it would piss off legitimate customers that couldn't use their own games/movies at a friends house or in another console/player in their own home(!)

What has been proposed for Blu-ray Disc is a technology called ROM Mark, which pre-recorded discs can come "tagged" with (I think it's optional). If you were to copy the content from such a disc to a recordable/rewriteable disc an unmodified player would be able to detect the Mark encoded in the playback stream and if a matching ROM Mark isn't present physically on the actual disc the disc won't play. However, this shouldn't affect legitimate uses of the disc.

[brianwestermann]

Thanks for the info. The Rom Mark thing sounds more reasonable, although I heard talk Sony may use that imprint technology I mentioned in Japan to encourage purchase of new games for the PS3 there.

I know if they did that here in the US, since I buy many games used and take stuff to other machines, I know it would be infuriating.

Thanks for clearing this issue, I can rest easier.
And an official word about this on PS3's games soon will help too. Much appreciated.

[thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Marwin

What has been proposed for Blu-ray Disc is a technology called ROM Mark, which pre-recorded discs can come "tagged" with (I think it's optional). If you were to copy the content from such a disc to a recordable/rewriteable disc an unmodified player would be able to detect the Mark encoded in the playback stream and if a matching ROM Mark isn't present physically on the actual disc the disc won't play. However, this shouldn't affect legitimate uses of the disc.

But what if you gain another player in time?
By law, if you use the disc in that player, it would still be a legal copy, but the player will refuse to play the disc.

My idea about copy protection is some kind of a fingerprint-like protection.
Its a code embedded inside the player and the discs. When you buy a disc, you should get a code, with the meaning of the location. This means, you buy a player with that code and then you play the legally bought disc on it. Now that disc gets the code too and when you copy the disc, the fingerprint goes on that disc too. If you buy another player, you should be able to get the fingerprint code on that player too, so you can play all your discs on that player too. If you would like to copy the disc and spead it over the internet or share it with someone else, it wouldn't be possible because the codes don't match. This is my copy protection idea.
Fingerprint-free movies will probably be released but shouldn't play on players.
My idea looks like the 'region codes' used in DVDs, only this is effective and with meaning, the region codes aren't from my point of view.

Any comments?

[Marwin]

I just heard that this patent was filed back in 1999 and still nothing similar has ever been used anywhere. Also, there's not really anything to suggest what they actually intended to use the technology for, but one possibility is some type of promotional discs that couldn't be shared or re-distributed.

[Marwin]

"I would like to clarify that this is false speculation and that PlayStation 3 software will not be copy protected to a single machine but will be playable on any PlayStation 3 console," said a Sony Computer Entertainment Europe spokesperson.

Source: Guardian

Sony debunks PS3 single-machine DRM

[thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Marwin

I just heard that this patent was filed back in 1999 and still nothing similar has ever been used anywhere.

How come its patented? And by what company? Why don't they buy the patent? My god, this whole copyprotection situation already costed billions to the companies...

[Marwin]

This is the patent as filed by Ken Kutaragi:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...RS=IN/Kutaragi

Who knows why they patented it, but they've never used it and have recently stated that they don't have any plans to use it for the PS3.

[marcvh]

Originally Posted by Marwin

If you were to copy the content from such a disc to a recordable/rewriteable disc an unmodified player would be able to detect the Mark encoded in the playback stream and if a matching ROM Mark isn't present physically on the actual disc the disc won't play. However, this shouldn't affect legitimate uses of the disc.

Just out of curiousity, what constitutes "legitimate uses" and who gets to decide that? Is fair use a "legitimate use" or not?

[thunderhawk]

Then I get the question; what is 'fair use'?

[marcvh]

Originally Posted by thunderhawk

Then I get the question; what is 'fair use'?

It's a legal concept; one source that may get you started is http://www.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php.

"Legitimate uses," on the other hand, seems to be more a matter of opinion; I know that Jack Valenti would define the term differently than I would.

[Marwin]

Originally Posted by marcvh

Just out of curiousity, what constitutes "legitimate uses" and who gets to decide that? Is fair use a "legitimate use" or not?

Let me just clarify that I don't know a whole lot about AACS specifics and what policies they will have, I get my information from press releases and news articles. Anyway, if I'm not mistaken the policy decisions for content/protection/outputs/etc will be decided by AACS and the companies that participate there, so it should be the same for both Blu-ray and HD-DVD as they've both adopted AACS. The final specification for AACS is expected to be finished later this year, so I guess we'll know more then.

My comment about "legitimate uses" was simply referring to the fact that with Mandatory Managed Copy (MMC) you will finally have a legal way to make a digital copy of the movie that you can transfer over your home network, which wasn't possible with DVDs. If we assume that consumers will be allowed to make a private copy of the movie and that region coding isn't part of the format, then I'm not sure what other legitimate reasons there would be to "hack" the player or the discs.

[marcvh]

Originally Posted by Marwin

If we assume that consumers will be allowed to make a private copy of the movie and that region coding isn't part of the format, then I'm not sure what other legitimate reasons there would be to "hack" the player or the discs.

It arguably constitutes an improvement in some ways over the current legal status of DVDs. Never the less, just off the top of my head, suppose I wanted to do various things with discs I own and exclusively for my own personal use:

• Making 5 copies of the disc (on other discs, not hard drives) -- one for the living room, one for the media room, one for my PC, one for my car, and one kept in my safe deposit box
  
• Making a "mix disc" for my own use, compiled together out of chapters on various discs I own
  
• Watching and copying the disc for my own use on any computer I own, no matter what kind of hardware and operating system it uses
  
• Watching the disc on any HDTV I own (even a set that doesn't support HDCP or 5C or the like)
  
• Disabling UOP (User Operation Prohibition, e.g. forced trailers and FBI warnings)
  
• Making a derivative work (e.g. a copy with my own commentary track added, a copy with the profanity and nudity removed)
  
• When holographic disc technology comes out, combining the contents of 20 BDs onto a single HVD for convenience
  

I would submit that all of these uses seem "legitimate" to me, but some of them may require a hacked player or other modifications in order to accomplish.

[Marwin]

If you expect that much freedom to do what you want with the content then I guess you will be disappointed with any format that isn't completely free of copy protection.

I don't see how they could allow disc to disc copies without making commercial piracy far too easy. When it comes to digital copies you should be able to make more than one copy, but the studios will set the price per copy. The digital copies should be possible to play as long as you run them on a system that implements AACS fully.

When it comes to unprotected outputs, I think they will allow analog output for the first few years and then gradually down rez it and move to requiring HDMI/DVI/etc for full HD as these connections become more common.

[marcvh]

Originally Posted by Marwin

If you expect that much freedom to do what you want with the content then I guess you will be disappointed with any format that isn't completely free of copy protection.

Well, yes, and I don't realistically expect that to happen. But that's not really the point; the point is that those are all "legitimate" uses. They do not constitute piracy or copyright infringement or even poor ethics.

Therefore if a copy protection system prevents customers from being able to perform these legitimate uses, then that means there are legitimate reasons for wanting to work around it. That's all. Fair enough?

I don't see how they could allow disc to disc copies without making commercial piracy far too easy.

Given how many pirated DVDs come out while the movie is still in theaters, I'm not sure disc-to-disc copying is the biggest risk vector for commercial piracy. Casual copying among friends, maybe.

[Marwin]

I see your point regarding my usage of the term "legitimate use", I just meant they have tried to fix the most common/obvious reasons to hack the player/media, but not everything. They have to weigh the risks vs rewards.

[thunderhawk]

Idd... Risks are becoming higher and higher, while the rewards go down...