iTunes extras finally on Apple TV

[Rik1138]

Originally Posted by sonnyness

FYI if you open a Disneymoviesanywhere.com account all your SD Disney movies are upgraded to HD for free, when you link with iTunes account (very simple) im just sayin... get on it

Okay, you are awesome... I had no idea you could do this. Just upgraded all of my Pixar films and the new Extras are working for all of them... (And Tron Legacy as well...)

Disney is certainly being incredibly cool about how they are handling all of this...

[Rik1138]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I'm happy for you that you find it equally entertaining to enjoy poor quality, decades-old versions of movies, but you're probably fairly unique in that opinion. Even if I still had a working VCR and my copy of Star Trek II, I'm never, ever, ever going to watch it again. I'm going to watch an HD version through Netflix or my own collection. (And the iTunes copy is on a hard drive, backed up, and able to be delivered to any device I own because I stripped the DRM.)

Cool, I'm glad you are happy for me...

Although that has nothing to do with this, and wasn't my intent...

Of course I watch movies on the best available format... And for some movies (likely ones no one else has ever heard of), that format is VHS (or laserdisc, etc). I also like to collect technology, and the history of it (which is why I'd like to have a working DIVX setup somehow... And why I've taken the time to learn how to repair laserdisc and CED players.)

My point was, that you seem to keep ignoring, is that THE CONSUMER has control over whether or not they will play. With digital copies, that control is held by the STUDIO. (Which, to be honest, I suspect is one of the main reasons they love it so much.)

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

You don't always need to be connected to the Internet to watch a movie unless you're using a service like Netflix. iTunes and UV both permit downloading of your movies, although UV's implementation is currently different for each retailer. That will likely change by the end of the year.

iTunes may not be allowing downloading of the content for long. It appears that their end goal is a streaming ONLY format, on all devices... Internet connection will be required at all times.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

You're the one you brought up that consumer electronics disaster. You conveniently keep ignoring the fact that DIVX was for rentals - purchasing was an option that rarely occurred. DIVX discs didn't have extras and DVD, which was kicking its butt, did.

I just mentioned that one because it was the most obvious example I could think of at the time. And again, the amount it was used is irrelevant. People _DID_ buy copies (wasn't it called Silver and Gold versions or something?), and they can't play those now. At this time, I'm sure no one cares as they've moved on, but they weren't given a choice. That's where my problem lies with buying something you don't have any control over...

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

DIVX did not use a needle, it used a laser. I think you're confusing DIVX with something else.

I never said DIVX used a needle... I said CEDs used a needle... Completely different technology, and used as an example of showing off old tech to people. Nothing really to do with the conversation here, just kind of threw it out there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacit...lectronic_Disc
Still shocks people to think that they actually put movies on records...

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I'll tell you the reason: accounting. It's the same reason gift cards (used to) expire. Each code is technically a liability, and you have to keep track of that liability until you don't. So firms put expiration dates so that they can eventually stop keeping track of that liability. And really, if a person hasn't redeemed a code a decade after purchase, what's the likelihood they will? Why should that continue to be an ongoing liability on their books?

Nah, that's just bad data management. It costs nothing to keep a list of codes on a server (especially on an existing server that will _always_ have codes on it for some title or another... I know the server itself costs money to run). As with the Movie Cash example someone else used, gift cards are an actual expense. When I use a gift card, they have to pay out the money, so they have to keep track of it.

I've already _paid_ for the digital copy, there's no liability there, they just have to NOT remove the code from their server. (Hell, it probably costs them more to pay someone to manage the codes than if they just left them alone until they got used...) And not being able to give you straight answer of when (or even IF) the codes will expire just doesn't make sense... Either you have an end date, or you don't...

Again, it just doesn't make sense. But I have to admit, internal corporate financial matters frequently don't make sense to me... Especially when studios are concerned...

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Rik1138

My point was, that you seem to keep ignoring, is that THE CONSUMER has control over whether or not they will play. With digital copies, that control is held by the STUDIO.

I didn't ignore it. The practical difference for nearly everybody is no difference at all. Whether equipment breaks on the consumer and they can't buy new, or it's obsoleted, etc., the consumer still has to move to the Next Big Thing eventually. At least electronic sales holds the hope of breaking that cycle even a little bit.

iTunes may not be allowing downloading of the content for long.

FUD. UV is in the process of permitting widespread downloading, and iTunes is on the verge of eliminating it? Doubtful. Extras are one thing. The movie itself is another kettle of fish.

Having said that, it could happen a decade from now. A lot of things can change in that amount of time. But it wouldn't happen unless the number of people impacted is minimal (for varying definitions of minimal). Studios and retailers want to maximize their profits. They usually do this by expanding availability of their product, not dramatically cutting back on it.

I never said DIVX used a needle... I said CEDs used a needle...

I thought you meant Consumer Electronics Device, not that you were introducing a new term without context. My bad!

Nah, that's just bad data management. [...] It costs nothing to keep a list of codes on a server (especially on an existing server that will _always_ have codes on it for some title or another... I know the server itself costs money to run).

There is always a cost, even for the smallest of things, and especially in aggregate. There's even a whole field to deal with it. It's called accounting.

I've already _paid_ for the digital copy, there's no liability there, they just have to NOT remove the code from their server.

That digital code is actually promotional, not a sale. It's an expense to the studio and one they'd like to close the loop on. (EST is a different matter.)

The fact that they can't seem to tell you when a code will expire is evidence that there is an effort involved in keeping track of it, one has an expense. Who knows how many people's salaries are partly paid to maintain that data, account for it, report it, etc.? You may scoff and stamp your feet saying that it's small and badly implemented, but face it, you don't know. Given that promotional items generally have expiration dates, it doesn't seem out of line regardless of the size of the expense.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I'll quit commenting and let it get back to it's intended purpose.

[Rik1138]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

FUD. UV is in the process of permitting widespread downloading, and iTunes is on the verge of eliminating it? Doubtful. Extras are one thing. The movie itself is another kettle of fish.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see...
If they did make it streaming only (even the movie), what would be your response to that? (Honest question, I'm really curious how well that would be received...)

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I thought you meant Consumer Electronics Device, not that you were introducing a new term without context. My bad!

Wasn't out of context, I mentioned it originally in a list along with VHS, Betamax, laserdisc, DVD, 8-track tapes, 78 RPM records and phonograph cylinders... Long list of old technology for video/audio recording.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

That digital code is actually promotional, not a sale. It's an expense to the studio and one they'd like to close the loop on. (EST is a different matter.)

But it's not listed that way on the packaging... Movie Cash (for example) is listed as being a limited time offer. Most other promotional items are _clearly_ listed as such.

Blu-ray packaging simply says:
BLURAY + DVD + DIGITAL COPY
With no indication that one (or more) of these is promotional or expires (especially when it's a set that CHARGES you for the digital copy at the time of purchase).

If it said:
BLURAY + DVD + DIGITAL COPY (for a limited time)
or something, then it would make more sense...

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Who knows how many people's salaries are partly paid to maintain that data, account for it, report it, etc.?

And again my problem with this. Why does it have to be 'maintained, accounted for and reported'? And why would there even be several people's salaries involved? And those are honest questions (that I doubt anyone outside the studio could answer), I would really be interested in seeing what goes on behind-the-scenes with maintaining and managing the digital copy world... I still think they sometimes just way over-think some of this stuff... And of course, marketing is an even weirder science than accounting... You get the two working together and it's amazing that anything happens at all.

[Andysol]

Originally Posted by Rik1138

No, that's different. When you get a 'free movie ticket', you are getting a check made by the company that can be used to buy a ticket. They have to PAY the theater/studio the amount of the check when it's used. All checks expire, that's a requirement of the banking industry... If the cereal box contained $10 cash 'to use at a theater', I guarantee you it would be perfectly usable 20 years from now.

And that's a free 'gift' for buying the cereal, not something you are out-right paying for.

When you buy a Blu-ray that includes a digital copy, you are _buying_ a copy of the digital film as well (there have been titles where the only additional 'bonus' was the digital copy, and they cost $5 more than the version without. You are PAYING for the digital copy. If it expires, I want my $5 back.) It doesn't cost the studios anything to activate the code, and it's not a 'promotional gift' for buying the movie, it's part of the package. It'd be like having the second disc of a two-disc set suddenly stop working after a year... The outside of the packaging doesn't magically remove the big ' + DIGITAL COPY' at the top when the code isn't any good...

And my biggest complaint is the ones that didn't tell you they expire, or they say things like 'may not work after this date'. _MAY NOT_? Really? The studios themselves don't even know... (Even better: 'Code subject to expiration' with no additional information. How is that helpful? )

I suppose it's possible they are paying a third-party company to manage all of this, and that company might charge by movie title annually, so that might be the logistical reason for having them expire. But just having a check-list of codes on a server that just goes 'Yep, that one is good' shouldn't have to disable them after some time... It just never made any sense to me why they couldn't work for as long as the service (i.e., iTunes or UV) is available.

I can't have a discussion with you because you don't understand how it works.

Here's where you are completely wrong:

1- What if the movie ticket says "Expires 7/31/2014"- yet you want to use it 9/13/2014? Well- sorry- you don't get to use it. Thats no different than a digital copy saying "expires 12/31/2013" and you wanting to use it sometime this year. A promotion is a promotion. Same with "Buy this movie, get a movie ticket". Or "buy this disney movie, get this soundtrack as free download- expires x/x/xx"

2- You've never paid more for a movie that includes only a digital copy as the only extra feature. Ever. Tell ya what- I will paypal you $50 if you can give me a single example. I'll put my 100% 380+ feedback on the line here. So don't just make up stuff to try to prove your point. If your point was valid- then you wouldn't have to fabricate.

3- It says on the back of the blu ray either: "Blu-Ray may expire- visit https://twitter.com/xyz for complete info"- or- as they do with every Vudu movie- they full blown put an exact expiration date on a sticker on the slipcover or packaging! Also- giving a "may expire on x/x/xx" is because often times studios extend the expiration date just because they are being nice. It's not "false advertisement" like you claim in the post above this.

[midgat0]

Is there going to be a thread that lists movies on iTunes where the extras show up on apple tv?

[Rik1138]

Originally Posted by Andysol

1- What if the movie ticket says "Expires 7/31/2014"- yet you want to use it 9/13/2014? Well- sorry- you don't get to use it. Thats no different than a digital copy saying "expires 12/31/2013" and you wanting to use it sometime this year. A promotion is a promotion. Same with "Buy this movie, get a movie ticket". Or "buy this disney movie, get this soundtrack as free download- expires x/x/xx"

First of all, this movie ticket cash thing has nothing to do with this.
If you want to throw out examples of other promotions, include one that's not listed as a promotion on the packaging, and that doesn't cost the studio money when it's used... Digital copies aren't listed as promotions, they are just listed as something included with the purchase. You have to go digging around in tiny fine-print on the back to even know they could possibly expire... If you've never had any experience with them, you'd have no way of knowing it has a limited lifespan by casually looking over the packaging.

Something I did just think of though... With regards to cost to the studios, it is entirely possible they they still have to pay a small fee to Apple (or whoever runs UV) when the code is used... So maybe there is a payout from the studio on them... That would certainly add more justification to them disabling codes... Maybe they allocate a certain amount of money per title for that, and when that is reached (if it's not before a printed date), they kill the remaining codes. So if it's redeemed slowly, it might last years past the expiration... I almost don't see Apple (or whoever) serving this up for free, so that may actually be the best argument for justifying the expirations, if that's the case.

Originally Posted by Andysol

2- You've never paid more for a movie that includes only a digital copy as the only extra feature. Ever. Tell ya what- I will paypal you $50 if you can give me a single example. I'll put my 100% 380+ feedback on the line here. So don't just make up stuff to try to prove your point. If your point was valid- then you wouldn't have to fabricate.

I most certainly HAVE paid more for a movie with just a digital copy as the only extra feature: Wall-e (see below).
I don't need to make stuff up... I haven't been in this industry since it started without noticing a few things...

Here's a few examples:

Wall-e, 2 Disc Blu-ray set, $35.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/WALL-E-Blu-ray/1190/
Wall-e, 2 Disc Blu-ray set + Digital Copy, $40.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/WALL-E-Blu-ray/1225/

Only difference between them was the inclusion of the digital copy, at a $5 markup. This was the first (and only) one I personally experienced. I thought paying a little more for some extra content would be worth it, only to find out all I got for my extra $5 was a digital copy that I really wasn't interested in... (Yeah, should have read the packaging more, but I was just foolishly assuming the more expensive '3-disc set' one had more content. Haven't forgotten that lesson.)

Real Steel, 2 disc set (Blu-ray + DVD), $27.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Real-...Blu-ray/34260/
Real Steel, 2 disc set (Blu-ray + DVD) + Digtial Copy, $35.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Real-...Blu-ray/30775/

Only difference between these is the inclusion of the digital copy, at an $8 markup.

The Help, 2 disc set (Blu-ray + DVD), $29.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Help-Blu-ray/28873/
The Help, 2 disc set (Blu-ray + DVD) + Digital copy, $44.99 original list
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/The-Help-Blu-ray/28872/

Only difference between these is the inclusion of the digital copy, at a $15 markup. (I still can't believe that one... Haven't seen this one personally though.)

I could keep going, but you get the point. Disney was the worst with it, they only titles that weren't marked up _just_ for a digital copy were 3D titles where you got a 3D Blu-ray + Digital Copy for some increased price.

Originally Posted by Andysol

3- It says on the back of the blu ray either: "Blu-Ray may expire- visit https://twitter.com/xyz for complete info"- or- as they do with every Vudu movie- they full blown put an exact expiration date on a sticker on the slipcover or packaging! Also- giving a "may expire on x/x/xx" is because often times studios extend the expiration date just because they are being nice. It's not "false advertisement" like you claim in the post above this.

They don't always say that (they do NOW, sure, but not in the beginning). I have several that just state, in the tiniest font known to man, buried a paragraph of stuff, 'digital copy subject to expiration'. No weblink for more info, no date or even an expected time frame. Some of the earliest ones didn't even say that much. Some made no mention of the digital copy at all except that it was included (Speed Racer comes to mind, but I'd have to look at the packaging to confirm 100%). I think on the card with the code inside the package there was mention of an expiration, but you had no way of seeing (or even knowing) that was there until you bought the disc...

They've certainly fixed that now of course. Dates, or at least best guesses, are usually listed on the box somewhere... But it wasn't always like that....

And, in the defense of the studios, I have tried several digital copy codes that were supposed to be years past expiration, and they still worked... (And I have some that don't, so they really do kill them...)

[Rik1138]

Originally Posted by midgat0

Is there going to be a thread that lists movies on iTunes where the extras show up on apple tv?

When you go to 'Movies' on your Apple TV, select 'Top Movies', and the first large icon in the top row should be an 'iTunes Extras' icon with 'The Perfect Movie Companion' written on it.

Click that icon. It'll take you to a huge list of movies that have the new Apple TV iTunes Extras available for them.

I'm not sure if that lists _every_ movie or not, but it's certainly a lot to dig into...

[Andysol]

I stand corrected on the prices. Sorry!

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Rik1138

If they did make it streaming only (even the movie), what would be your response to that?

My personal experience has little bearing on what makes sense for the market as a whole.

But it's not listed that way on the packaging... Movie Cash (for example) is listed as being a limited time offer. Most other promotional items are _clearly_ listed as such.

Some feel that fine print isn't clear print, but we live in a world of fine print. In this case the fine print is on the outside of the packaging so it's hard to muster much sympathy. (And if it's inside the packaging and you refuse to agree, I'd say you have a valid case for returning it to the merchant.)

Why does it have to be 'maintained, accounted for and reported'? And why would there even be several people's salaries involved?

We're not talking about an Excel spreadsheet on a Flash drive somewhere. Every one of those codes has to be stored, tracked, and coordinated with external companies (such as Apple) to control their consumption. They have to have customer support when there are misprints, missing codes, duplicates, and user errors. Systems and databases must be maintained, upgraded, and replaced, and someone, somewhere has to do it. Even if they used all the same equipment as every other piece of data they have, there's a marginal cost to keep those codes, and someone accounts for that. Hand-waving simply won't suffice unless the costs involved are de minimis.

If they didn't account for and report the expenditures, as public companies they'd be subject to legal repercussions as well as negative feedback from shareholders. Every business needs to know how much they owe to whom and for how long. An indefinite financial obligation is hardly reasonable.

Now, really, I must be going...

[Dunk the Lunk]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

I'll tell you the reason: accounting. It's the same reason gift cards (used to) expire. Each code is technically a liability, and you have to keep track of that liability until you don't. So firms put expiration dates so that they can eventually stop keeping track of that liability. And really, if a person hasn't redeemed a code a decade after purchase, what's the likelihood they will? Why should that continue to be an ongoing liability on their books?

Originally Posted by Rik1138

Nah, that's just bad data management. It costs nothing to keep a list of codes on a server (especially on an existing server that will _always_ have codes on it for some title or another... I know the server itself costs money to run). As with the Movie Cash example someone else used, gift cards are an actual expense. When I use a gift card, they have to pay out the money, so they have to keep track of it.

I've already _paid_ for the digital copy, there's no liability there, they just have to NOT remove the code from their server. (Hell, it probably costs them more to pay someone to manage the codes than if they just left them alone until they got used...) And not being able to give you straight answer of when (or even IF) the codes will expire just doesn't make sense... Either you have an end date, or you don't...

Although I don't think its ever been publicised I think we can safely guarantee that Apple will be taking a 30% cut of any digital copy code redeemed on iTunes (like they do with everything else). Otherwise Apple might as well be giving the movie away. This is why there is an accounting issue and a time limit.

[manutd123]

Can someone help please:

I tried to play my copy of "Planes" today via Apple TV.

I went to the movie icon and clicked it, on the next page clicked on the Play button and it took me to a new screen which should say:

PLAY . EXTRAS . FEATURED EXTRAS . RELATED

The only problem is there was no PLAY button to watch the movie, I can only watch the extras.

Help?

[Andysol]

Originally Posted by Dunk the Lunk

Although I don't think its ever been publicised I think we can safely guarantee that Apple will be taking a 30% cut of any digital copy code redeemed on iTunes (like they do with everything else). Otherwise Apple might as well be giving the movie away. This is why there is an accounting issue and a time limit.

It's also been speculated that the large music studios get a significant discount off the ~30% apple charges to sell your music.
I'd bet that number is significantly less than 30%- but we can absolutely agree it is something. And even if it were 25%- that ain't chump change.

[Zu Nim]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Ted (theatrical, unrated already had them) and I, Frankenstein both got the new extras today. I hope that's a trend.

I've noticed that some of my movies haven't gotten the new extras even though they show as available in the store. When I right-click on those movies and select Show in iTunes Store, they take me to the main Movies page instead of the specific movie. I believe that means the copy of the movie I own has a different identifier than the one that's displayed in the store. It's happened for me with 3 Disney movies and The Dark Knight (which I purchased as part of the trilogy).

[Andregk]

Whoever said the studios or Apple still has power over our digital movies is kinda correct. But us as consumers have legal recourse if they ever decide to strip us of the movie somehow. Everywhere it states we OWN the digital movie...so where the hells the problem? Is Apple going under? Are the studios? Enjoy the movies and relax! Has any digital song you bought... ever skipped or broke or was taken away from you? Now what about your DVD or bluray? I'm sticking to digital...

[shamus]

Originally Posted by Andregk

Whoever said the studios or Apple still has power over our digital movies is kinda correct. But us as consumers have legal recourse if they ever decide to strip us of the movie somehow. Everywhere it states we OWN the digital movie...so where the hells the problem? Is Apple going under? Are the studios? Enjoy the movies and relax! Has any digital song you bought... ever skipped or broke or was taken away from you? Now what about your DVD or bluray? I'm sticking to digital...

but they do remove movies occasionally.

[Andregk]

Then we will occasionally sue them.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by shamus

but they do remove movies occasionally.

ITunes made a mistake in removing Lion King and a few other Movies a few years back, and then promptly restored them. Are there any other examples?

[shamus]

Originally Posted by Greyman

ITunes made a mistake in removing Lion King and a few other Movies a few years back, and then promptly restored them. Are there any other examples?

I was under the impression that there are numerous movies being pulled and put back at the whims of the studios.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by shamus

I was under the impression that there are numerous movies being pulled and put back at the whims of the studios.

Movies that are available for sale or rent, sure that happens occasionally, but that is different from movies that you own which are taken out of your account, which I would imagine is rare, but not sure how rare.