The Fifth Element 4K UHD (1997) (20th Anniversary Edition)

[aetherhole]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Those with OLEDs, or really and HDR display with lackluster tone mapping will see benefits to DV right off the bat. LG's OLEDs especially. The tone mapping on these TVs go from really bad (models prior to this year) to okay (this year). With DV the tone mapping is nearly perfect. So that will show benefits immediately. With 12 bit there is less chance of banding in the image or with the display. Otherwise I don't expect large differences. If anything DV just provides a MUCH better chance of having a trouble free presentation of the movie as intended or to the best possible quality with a given display.

That's exactly what we need... a more standardized HDR experience overall.

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The Oppo will have DV soon, it is already added in beta (which I have). So probably sooner than later for that.

Great to know Kris.

Side note: It's always great to see your name pop up across message boards and reviews and such. I've been a fan since the days of Home Theater SPoT! We even played a few games together on Xbox 360 back in the day...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Does the slider add anything on the UB900 for HDR vs the Oppo?

I dunno about the OPPO but I've done some fiddlin' with it (hey, it's me!) on the Panny and what's interesting is that it enables the ZD9 to fully resolve the 10,000-nit ramp on the Sony discs if I push it to +5, however this then has the effect of lowering luminance at about 60% brightness and above, so instead of getting that steep EOTF curve it becomes a more relaxed incline, still plenty bright but nowhere near the brightness that it should be.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I dunno about the OPPO but I've done some fiddlin' with it (hey, it's me!) on the Panny and what's interesting is that it enables the ZD9 to fully resolve the 10,000-nit ramp on the Sony discs if I push it to +5, however this then has the effect of lowering luminance at about 60% brightness and above, so instead of getting that steep EOTF curve it becomes a more relaxed incline, still plenty bright but nowhere near the brightness that it should be.

Thanks because I was thinking of selling off the UB900 if I go to an HDR projector and just keep the Oppo. However, if the slider gives me a benefit I might consider keeping it.

Kris, any thoughts on this as I am considering moving to an RS400 to get custom curves, thanks.

[grodd]

I'd be curious to know where the Dolby Vision VS. HDR performance will fall on the 65ZD9 considering where it falls on the HDR graph here vs a reference monitor.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-conten...image39-lg.jpg

http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...urrent-issues/

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

If anything DV just provides a MUCH better chance of having a trouble free presentation of the movie as intended or to the best possible quality with a given display.

I could not say it better and I tried. Everyone would benefit if Dolby Vison becomes the de facto standard for 4K Blu-rays.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by grodd

I'd be curious to know where the Dolby Vision VS. HDR performance will fall on the 65ZD9 considering where it falls on the HDR graph here vs a reference monitor.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-conten...image39-lg.jpg

http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...urrent-issues/

Fascinating stuff! It's no surprise that the ZD9 struggles with those small 1% area measurements as the FALD only has so many zones, e.g. things like starfields and sparks flying about will always 'pollute' their backgrounds with light because they can't be fully isolated to such a small degree. But the slight irony is that even with this <10% roll-off the 1% and 5% readings on the ZD9 are still comfortably brighter than any other TV in that comparison, they're just not as bright in reference to what the ZD9's peak is as it tracks the reference monitor.

People sometimes say that a 4K OLED has 8 million 'zones' i.e. pixels that can be turned on and off at will and it's pleasing to see that the OLEDs track the performance of the 1000-nit reference so well, but then they generally would given that it's an OLED too! But it's the OLED's mapping of >1000 nit highlights that's the bigger issue, and seeing as three studios routinely put out >1000-nit UHD discs it would be interesting to see such a graph plotted against the 4000-nit Dolby Pulsar with those displays and some 2017 models too.

[Kris Deering]

The Z9D is one of the best out there for tone mapping, so any improvement from DV will be slight at best.

[grodd]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

and seeing as three studios routinely put out >1000-nit UHD discs it would be interesting to see such a graph plotted against the 4000-nit Dolby Pulsar with those displays and some 2017 models too.and seeing as three studios routinely put out >1000-nit UHD discs it would be interesting to see such a graph plotted against the 4000-nit Dolby Pulsar with those displays and some 2017 models too.

I agree when I saw the graphic I've been more curious about what the differences would be.

Personally for me my favorite looking TV's are the LG Oled's and the 65ZD9.

[grodd]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

The Z9D is one of the best out there for tone mapping, so any improvement from DV will be slight at best.

Thanks! Always enjoy your reading your comments.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by aetherhole

That's exactly what we need... a more standardized HDR experience overall.

Which, as Geoff has said, they should have launched the format with. I maintain that those with a good "HDR Premium" set don't need to drool too much over dynamic metadata, but considering the flood of various other displays on the market it's crazy there was no standardized method of dealing with that on day one.

[HeavyHitter]

And not only with manufacturers, just crazy one studio is mastering to 1000 nits and another at 4000 nits.

I guess one could say, well BDs were mastered at various gammas which is true - but that is something that should have been learned from when releasing a new format.

[worldchmps]

I have the mastered in 4k version. I previously had the not mastered in 4k version. I feel like I want the 4k but don't need it as the current version is so sharp. I think the only improvement will be HDR. If I can get it for the right price I can sell the old version and get the new on for a few dollars more but at $23 it's too much. I got both Ghostbusters movies for $14.99 on Amazon when they matched BB. I want this to be $14.99. That's the sweet spot for a rerelease of a rerelease. If it gets to within a dollar two of that I'll jump. If not, I'll wait. Anyone think it'll drop in price soon? How much better do you think the new version will be versus the previous one?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

And not only with manufacturers, just crazy one studio is mastering to 1000 nits and another at 4000 nits.

I guess one could say, well BDs were mastered at various gammas which is true - but that is something that should have been learned from when releasing a new format.

Yeah, and while the different gammas for BD weren't that hard to deal with when adjusting at the display end, the >1000-nit HDR discs most definitely are. In some ways I can't even blame the tech manufacturers for having such a cack-handed approach to static HDR mapping because the content itself is a moving target. If everything was either 1000 or 4000 nit then the mapping could've been nailed down from the start but some folks like LG seemed to optimise for 1000 nit content (and why not, seeing as the frickin' reference Sony monitor was also a 1000-nit OLED) and were really caught on the hop by 4000-nit static content.

[PS3_Kiwi]

I have the old remastered US BD (not the mastered in 4K), and decided to have a look at it on my UHD Premium set up.

The PQ was excellent, and the Dolby True HD 5.1 audio upmix, was reference quality.

The 4K disc of TFE, should be an absolute stunner. Right up there with the best catalog titles, such as Pacific Rim and Lucy.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, and while the different gammas for BD weren't that hard to deal with when adjusting at the display end, the >1000-nit HDR discs most definitely are. In some ways I can't even blame the tech manufacturers for having such a cack-handed approach to static HDR mapping because the content itself is a moving target. If everything was either 1000 or 4000 nit then the mapping could've been nailed down from the start but some folks like LG seemed to optimise for 1000 nit content (and why not, seeing as the frickin' reference Sony monitor was also a 1000-nit OLED) and were really caught on the hop by 4000-nit static content.

But dealing with 4000 nit content compared to 1000 nit content should be pretty easy. It is all in the tone map, which is where they drop the ball. Their clip point is wrong. I've done A LOT of experimenting with tone mapping on the projection side and there is no tougher case of having to implement a tone map than on a display thats peak white is closer to 100 nits than 1000. But with a proper tone map you'd be blown away with the results. And I can use the EXACT same EOTF curve with both 1000 and 4000 nit titles with no issues. When I do comparisons to the same HDR material playing on my C7 OLED, the difference subjectively is slight at best. The OLED has a bit more punch to the image, but it is also massively brighter and has infinite contrast. But the qualities of the image look nearly identical. The truth is there just isn't a ton of information past standard peak white (100 nits) in HDR content, so you can do a lot of compression without a lot of damage to the highlights.

[Geoff D]

But that's exactly my point Kris: it's the mapping OF the 4000-nit content in particular that's letting the side down. You say it should be pretty easy but it's a damned shame that people like yourself weren't involved with the display manufacturers from the start so that projectors, low-nit LCDs and OLEDs weren't hamstrung by their 'out of the box' HDR performance.

Vincentric mentioned all the tweaking I did with the Panny SDR conversion over the past year but that's NOTHING compared to all the stuff done by the projector cognoscenti in creating all these custom curves and whatnot, which for me begs the question as to WHY some of the manufacturers were so ill-equipped to deal with it.

[Kris Deering]

I think they were ill equipped to deal with it because most manufacturers are spending their time building the displays and what not and aren't used to the idea of having to create some way of making the video look good. Video playback is typically defined by standards that show you how to deal with video. You can then extrapolate other ways (make it brighter, bigger color gamut) to make it look "different" which some like or dislike, but it wasn't big science. With tone mapping there is literally no standard to do it. So some just went the easy way and clipped at their peak output, others decided to use a roll off. But creating that roll off involves testing and trial and error, and most display manufacturers had HDR displays on the market before there was even content to look at, so then they had to figure it out with real content all the while supporting the current product and developing the next. You'll get the companies that will say it looks good enough and the companies that will actually put the effort in. LG is really disappointing because they support DV but don't use the DV tone mapping for HDR10 content, which would completely solve their tone mapping issues. Vizio has this option. But LG said they didn't want to do what other companies are doing, which is ridiculous as the only way anything should be done is the RIGHT way, and it would be right with the DV tone map. Hopefully Sony will continue to get it right and go that route if and when they update their sets to DV, but their current tone map is already fantastic. I've heard Panasonic's is good too, but that display is not available here in the states.

[Geoff D]

Right, which is why I've said before that even some kind of generic industry-approved tone map (which could map the content to set increments of nits, say) would've been better than nothing, instead it became the wild HDR west as they all set out to do their own thing.

[skipfreely]

I broke down and pre-ordered the steelbook from Best Buy.

[grodd]

Here is a good Tone mapping comparison
I've heard Panasonic is one of the best. Judging from this video I agree.

HDR Tone-Mapping Explained: Sony A1, LG C7 vs Panasonic OLED TV - YouTube