4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[saprano]

Nothing said about 4KBD at CES because reasons? I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed. I know how this industry works. Keep pushing that digital distribution though.


*yawn*

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

...What is your view Penton?

Just to get through this evening without protesters blocking the freeway.

I’m optimistic for 4K Blu-ray establishing its niche both as a viable new entertainment source to consumers and also as a worthwhile revenue source to BDA member companies….unlike what many A/V bloggers in their postings and *journalistic* articles pronounced about a year ago about 4K in general being either dead on arrival or being a looooooooooong time in coming, it’s not working out according to their predictions…. http://www.twice.com/news/statistics...year-npd/54818 Of course, what else is new? Many of them chose/promoted the wrong format during the Blu-ray/HD DVD skirmish….until the writing was on the wall.

Unless things next year progress more expeditiously than expected in the production community, I don’t foresee a precise mechanism for extended dynamic range being elucidated in the basic 4K BD spec…which is a primary reason why I brought up the notion that what is announced next year isn’t necessarily non-upgradable (by using 3D Blu-ray as an analogy).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

...Keep pushing that digital distribution though.

*yawn*

Sap, something for you to be thankful for this Thanksgiving… http://welcometotwinpeaks.com/news/d...-2016-on-film/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Tok

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

Perhaps because every single player to date wouldn't be able to take advantage of that? Not to mention this extra color information isn't on any current disc except for Sony's Mi4K releases.


If you think people aren't going to buy new players for 4K you can bet even less would upgrade their player for highter color depth.


At least when they buy a 4K player they know they are getting something.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Unless things next year progress more expeditiously than expected in the production community, I don’t foresee a precise mechanism for extended dynamic range being elucidated in the basic 4K BD spec…which is a primary reason why I brought up the notion that what is announced next year isn’t necessarily non-upgradable (by using 3D Blu-ray as an analogy).

I consider myself a moderate supporter of HDR (400 nits sound nice while 10,000 nits sounds like fantasy) but I did wonder how they were going to do Dolby HDR with 10-bit video. I guess the answer was that it couldn't be done and I hope they don't go too far with the cost cutting.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Perhaps because every single player to date wouldn't be able to take advantage of that? Not to mention this extra color information isn't on any current disc except for Sony's Mi4K releases.

xvYCC is a proprietary feature that is supported by few companies and is technically limited since it had to be compatible with 8-bit video. In my opinion if 4K resolution is the only feature supported by 4K Blu-ray than the studios will have a tough time selling movies that were finished in 2K resolution.

[Geoff D]

10-bit 4:2:0 with scalable Rec.2020/.709 output will do me just fine to start off with. If HDR has be implemented a la 3D BD (requiring new players and displays, with discs that are *technically* backwards compatible with legacy 4K gear) then so be it.

BUT that may be a bridge too far, as even someone who's been "brainwashed" by the 4K hype - like myself - can appreciate that another round of upgrades just a few years into 4K's life cycle won't be warmly received.

[Kirsty_Mc]

Originally Posted by Tok

So why can't some of the improvements be used to create a better BD spec without the resolution increase.

Originally Posted by saprano

Anyone not brainwashed by 4K has been wanting the same thing. I think you know the answer to that already.

If you want some of the improvements, buy a 4 K player and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to set the output to 1080P*, then you can sit back and enjoy the improvements along with those of us that have been brainwashed. Of course we will also have the improvements, but 4x clearer.

I can't quite figure it out. This is supposed to be a largely home cinema based forum. We are being offered displays of a resolution that a few years would have been thought impractical, yet they are here. We can now create with these larger screens that immersive experience that would otherwise not have been possible without obvious pixel structure..... And some folk can't stop whinging about it!!!

Someone could do a psychology Ph.D on all this whinging
* that is if the 1080p display could make full use of the signal.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by saprano

Anyone not brainwashed by 4K has been wanting the same thing. I think you know the answer to that already.

A new BD spec would still require new players. Why should they create a new spec just to upgrade the color when they can instead upgrade both the resolution and the color?

If all you care about is the improved color I'm sure you'll be able to hook up a 4K player to your 1080p TV and you'll still get the improved color.

[kristoffer]

I wonder if version 1.0 of the new 4K spec will have things like Rec 2020 and Dolby Dynamic Range. I am guessing we won't see those till a later version of the spec.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

A new BD spec would still require new players. Why should they create a new spec just to upgrade the color when they can instead upgrade both the resolution and the color?

If all you care about is the improved color I'm sure you'll be able to hook up a 4K player to your 1080p TV and you'll still get the improved color.

Its not solely down to the player in this case.

The content encoded on the disc has to be 10-bit.

Some BD players already have support for Deep Colour which will output more than 8-bit colour, but the content on the disc is still only 8-bit.

If 10-bit was to be encoded on current Blu-ray's, they would have to use the High 10 Profile of AVC, this will require the AVC decoder within the player to be updated, whether a firmware update could provide this, or it would require new silicon, I do not know. As long as the player supports Deep Colour, that information could be passed to the display.

Not all panels are truly 10-bit, they may convert what is received down to 8-bit or just ignore the additional data, but at least more colour information is there actually on the disc.

We may see double packs, in which case you get a 4K Blu-ray and a separate Blu-ray. I doubt that a 4K Blu-ray could be played back if attached to a 1080p display, unless the player can convert the content to Blu-ray specifications.

I don't think anything has been established in terms of backwards compatibility.

[GenPion]

By backwards compatibility you mean display-wise, right? The 4K Blu-ray players should have no problem playing regular Blu-ray's.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by GenPion

By backwards compatibility you mean display-wise, right? The 4K Blu-ray players should have no problem playing regular Blu-ray's.

Of course, but I am talking about 4K Blu-ray's. If they will be 10-bit, and cannot be played back on 1080p display's, then that answers PenguinMaster's question, in which you will not be able to benefit from 10-bit colour depth, as currently Blu-ray are only 8-bit, no Deep Colour or upsampling, is going to change the fact that the content is 8-bit on disc.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by saprano

brainwashed by 4K...

Sap, you call it “brainwashing”, others term it “because shoppers better understand the improved image quality the sets deliver” , and of course, declining prices ….http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/p...ains/70098598/

Originally Posted by Geoff D

10-bit 4:2:0 with scalable Rec.2020/.709 output will do me just fine to start off with. If HDR has be implemented a la 3D BD (requiring new players and displays, with discs that are *technically* backwards compatible with legacy 4K gear) then so be it.

BUT that may be a bridge too far, as even someone who's been "brainwashed" by the 4K hype - like myself - can appreciate that another round of upgrades just a few years into 4K's life cycle won't be warmly received.

On a bandwidth throughput note, 10-bit 4:2:2 with scalable wide color gamut for movie content (traditional frame rate) is actually doable even with early HDMI 2.0 (10.2 Gbps) interface.

I try to be patient with Sap as one has to understand that he is currently dealing with two simultaneous tragedies in his life….
1. The near death of film acquisition, printer lights (rather than DI) and
2. The death of plasma TV production.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

10-bit 4:2:0 with scalable Rec.2020/.709 output will do me just fine to start off with. If HDR has be implemented a la 3D BD (requiring new players and displays, with discs that are *technically* backwards compatible with legacy 4K gear) then so be it.

BUT that may be a bridge too far, as even someone who's been "brainwashed" by the 4K hype - like myself - can appreciate that another round of upgrades just a few years into 4K's life cycle won't be warmly received.

The HDR standard for UHDTV is still being discussed and 12-bit consumer HEVC decoders won't be released for a good while so I can understand why they would wait on HDR. I do wonder though how much will get cut from 4K Blu-ray before they finalize the specs. While 4K resolution is a great feature the majority of movies are finished in 2K resolution so I am hoping that the CE companies don't focus only on the next fiscal year.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sap, you call it “brainwashing”, others term it “because shoppers better understand the improved image quality the sets deliver” , and of course, declining prices ….http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/p...ains/70098598/



On a bandwidth throughput note, 10-bit 4:2:2 with scalable wide color gamut for movie content (traditional frame rate) is actually doable even with early HDMI 2.0 (10.2 Gbps) interface.

I try to be patient with Sap as one has to understand that he is currently dealing with two simultaneous tragedies in his life….
1. The near death of film acquisition, printer lights (rather than DI) and
2. The death of plasma TV production.

Film ain't dead yet!

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

Of course, but I am talking about 4K Blu-ray's. If they will be 10-bit, and cannot be played back on 1080p display's, then that answers PenguinMaster's question, in which you will not be able to benefit from 10-bit colour depth, as currently Blu-ray are only 8-bit, no Deep Colour or upsampling, is going to change the fact that the content is 8-bit on disc.

I was talking about using a 4K player and a 4K disc on a 1080p TV. It's ridiculous to think that 4K players won't work on 1080p displays, they just won't look as good as when hooked up to a 4K TV. You can hook up a Blu-ray player to a 480i TV and it works just fine.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

I was talking about using a 4K player and a 4K disc on a 1080p TV. It's ridiculous to think that 4K players won't work on 1080p displays, they just won't look as good as when hooked up to a 4K TV. You can hook up a Blu-ray player to a 480i TV and it works just fine.

I wouldn't call it 'just fine', it works, but not exactly adequate.

That's using analog connections which have been disallowed on players now.

As I said its still unknown whether 4K content can be played back on HD displays.

Yes, a 4K player will/should work connected to a 1080p display, but the majority of HD displays only have HDMI 1.4 chips max, and thus might become problematic when playing back actual 4K Blu-ray's, HDMI 2.0 is needed to support HDCP 2.2 I believe, but in terms of video specification, the player will need to do some processing, downscaling/downsampling (depending on the display's HDMI chipset and supported features), to output an image that can be viewed on a 1080p display in terms of 4K Blu-ray playback.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

I wouldn't call it 'just fine', it works, but not exactly adequate.

That's using analog connections which have been disallowed on players now.

As I said its still unknown whether 4K content can be played back on HD displays.

Yes, a 4K player will/should work connected to a 1080p display, but the majority of HD displays only have HDMI 1.4 chips max, and thus might become problematic when playing back actual 4K Blu-ray's, HDMI 2.0 is needed to support HDCP 2.2 I believe, but in terms of video specification, the player will need to do some processing, downscaling/downsampling (depending on the display's HDMI chipset and supported features), to output an image that can be viewed on a 1080p display in terms of 4K Blu-ray playback.

Firstly, there's a still a Blu-ray player in production that can play Blu-ray using an analog connection (Playstation 3, though it only plays in SD). Secondly, all Blu-ray players can scale to 480p, 720p, and 1080p. Obviously the content looks better at higher resolutions but the picture isn't messed up when downscaled. Watching a native 720p video on a 720p TV won't look better than a native 1080p Blu-ray on a 720p TV. The same will undoubtedly be true with 4K. 4K players will be able to scale 4K discs down to 1080p (and lower) and I doubt they will look worse on a 1080p TV than 1080p Blu-ray does on a 1080p TV.

My original response was to soprano's comment about being "brainwashed by 4K" saying we should just get 1080p with an increased color gamut instead. If current 1080p TVs don't support the increased color gamut then you'd have to upgrade your TV in either case. If current 1080p TVs do support the increased color gamut then you wouldn't have to upgrade your TV in either case if all you care about is the increased color gamut. Both scenarios would always require a new player and new discs.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Firstly, there's a still a Blu-ray player in production that can play Blu-ray using an analog connection (Playstation 3, though it only plays in SD). Secondly, all Blu-ray players can scale to 480p, 720p, and 1080p. Obviously the content looks better at higher resolutions but the picture isn't messed up when downscaled. Watching a native 720p video on a 720p TV won't look better than a native 1080p Blu-ray on a 720p TV. The same will undoubtedly be true with 4K. 4K players will be able to scale 4K discs down to 1080p (and lower) and I doubt they will look worse on a 1080p TV than 1080p Blu-ray does on a 1080p TV.

My original response was to soprano's comment about being "brainwashed by 4K" saying we should just get 1080p with an increased color gamut instead. If current 1080p TVs don't support the increased color gamut then you'd have to upgrade your player, TV, and discs in either case. If current 1080p TVs do support the increased color gamut then you wouldn't have to upgrade your TV in either case if all you care about is the increased color gamut.

I am not discussing resolution changes, which has been required to happen, but all the content has still only been 8-bit, in your original post you said:

If all you care about is the improved color I'm sure you'll be able to hook up a 4K player to your 1080p TV and you'll still get the improved color.

You are talking about 10-bit colour depth, of which Blu-ray doesn't use, 4K Blu-ray will hopefully adopt it, but this requires backwards compatibility and at the same time, providing something that is only available in the new technology to get 10-bit from a 4K disc to a HD display, yes all the player has to do is downscale the content to HD in terms of resolution, but being able to send 10-bit content to a display is slightly different.

As I said, both player and display will have to support Deep Colour, and the player will have to have the ability to downscale the resolution and frame rate to meet the display capabilities, and at the same time send 10-bit either as Y'CC 4:4:4 or RGB, Y'CC 4:2:2 does not support Deep Colour (I don't know if this has changed for HDMI 2.0).

Deep Colour is only supported on HDMI chipsets of 1.3 or above and it is an optional spec, and thus a display may have a 1.3 chipset, but not support Deep Colour, so any display using anything below 1.3 will not be able to benefit from 10-bit colour depth.

I understand entirely where you are coming from in terms of resolution and how that is applied, and it will hopefully apply the same to 4K Blu-ray, but until actual 4K Blu-ray and players come out, we can only speculate as to what will happen, unless someone who knows more about this, can chip in.

[RAILERSWIM]

Here is how I will upgrade my collection.

I will hopefully have the equipment by then haha.

Make my first purchase at Walmart(Easier return policy and I don't have a Best Buy nearby), buy a title on BD4k that I already own on standard BD and compare the two.

If the BD4k version is lackluster, return it to Walmart.

If the BD4K version is beneficial enough, trade the standard version to Hastings (book/media store) for store credit to put towards new BD4k release (new film)

Granted when BD4K hits I have to haul all the DVD's at my parents house up to my place to trade in at Hastings and get them the Bluray releases of whatever they had on DVD that they don't already have on BD.