Upgrading To Better Speakers!

[richteer]

Originally Posted by mdabb

With talk about two subwoofers - got me thinking.

It is rumored or thought that bass is non-directional (mono) however some recordings use stereo bass. In order to even hear bass in stereo wouldn't it require your receiver or preamp to have left and right subwoofer outputs?

Sure you can use two subwoofer on a single output but wouldn't it null and void the idea of stereo bass? Being that it only represents one channel.

Having two subwoofers would only reinforce that mono channel and still wouldn't sonically benefit bass in stereo. The bass wouldn't match up and was artificially put there. What would be the point of having the same bass signal on two different channels?

Having one great sounding well placed subwoofer, wouldn't it sound sonically sound the same with just less bass?


Can anyone clarify and care to add to this and are there preamps that have L/R sub outputs???

Correct: for stereo bass, you either need a pair of full range speakers, or a pair of subs. Most receivers have only one sub output, for the LFE (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1), so connectiong two subs would be beneficial, but still only mono.

There are a few pre/pros with dual sub outputs, but I think they have the same signal. The only proper ".2" amp that comes to mind is Yamaha's 11.2 channel monster.

All of the preceding assumes that you use the LFE (sub) output. If you connect your subs up to the same way you connect your speakers, then yes, you can have proper stereo bass from them.

[mdabb]

For those who are interested I added another piece to the puzzle today. The Helicon center channel is big and beautiful and full of amazing sound. I can't recommend the Dali Helicon series enough it is great sounding and like owning an instrument. I am very happy to say the least!!!

For the surround channels I might be picking up the Helicon 400s. Crazy I know but you only live once. After that I am turning to two channel upgrades I want an awesome sounding setup for music. So I will be looking into preamps, amps, and CD/SACD player.

I don't want to forget about a subwoofer but I am still researching. Got to find one that blends well with what I have or will be getting. Not really looking for overkill but solid. Musical as well. Most people really love their subwoofer and I do as well but don't want the "Andre The Giant" of subs!!! I may end up getting the Helicon sub but not totally sure though.

As always thanks for the help and conversation.

[mdabb]

Picked up a pair of Helicon 300s for rear channels. I was going to go with the 400s but they are big and require a fair amount of breathing room which at this time I can't give them. The 300s are more than capable though. So I am very happy with the choice.

I guess all that's left now is a subwoofer. I have been in contact with Jim Salk of Salk Sound and have been thinking about two different models of subs from him. (Links below) I think either of them will be great choices and are quite sure that I will pick up one of them. There are a lot of other manufacturers out there but the Salks will blend in nicely with the Dali's. Plus whichever model I chose will be customized to my liking and needs and not to forget about matching up the cherry finish.

http://www.salksound.com/hts.shtml

http://www.salksound.com/SongSub.shtml


So that's what I've accomplished so far. Hopefully it will inspire others when selecting speakers. I live in an area where selection is at a minimum but I am very glad I didn't settle for the usual offerings at big box stores. If I did I am sure it would have been wasted money and I would still have been desiring more.

Piecing it together hasn't been so bad and it actually took less time than I thought. The results well you would have to hear it for yourself. It's hard to describe what I now get to hear.

I am not done with my system yet either and just like everyone else I will now focus on other equipment and the room itself.

Thanks for all the help too it is very much appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!

[prerich]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Picked up a pair of Helicon 300s for rear channels. I was going to go with the 400s but they are big and require a fair amount of breathing room which at this time I can't give them. The 300s are more than capable though. So I am very happy with the choice.

I guess all that's left now is a subwoofer. I have been in contact with Jim Salk of Salk Sound and have been thinking about two different models of subs from him. (Links below) I think either of them will be great choices and are quite sure that I will pick up one of them. There are a lot of other manufacturers out there but the Salks will blend in nicely with the Dali's. Plus whichever model I chose will be customized to my liking and needs and not to forget about matching up the cherry finish.

http://www.salksound.com/hts.shtml

http://www.salksound.com/SongSub.shtml


So that's what I've accomplished so far. Hopefully it will inspire others when selecting speakers. I live in an area where selection is at a minimum but I am very glad I didn't settle for the usual offerings at big box stores. If I did I am sure it would have been wasted money and I would still have been desiring more.

Piecing it together hasn't been so bad and it actually took less time than I thought. The results well you would have to hear it for yourself. It's hard to describe what I now get to hear.

I am not done with my system yet either and just like everyone else I will now focus on other equipment and the room itself.

Thanks for all the help too it is very much appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should have no problem making beautiful music with this setup!!!! Good job - quality gear - enjoy!!!!

[RUR]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Picked up a pair of Helicon 300s for rear channels.....

Cool deal on the 300's. You've now got 5.0 Dali's, yes? How does it sound?

In re: the sub.... Are you planning one sub for HT-duty only or two subs to supplement the 800's for HT and music? I shouldn't think the latter would be necessary with the 800's.

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by RUR

Cool deal on the 300's. You've now got 5.0 Dali's, yes? How does it sound?

In re: the sub.... Are you planning one sub for HT-duty only or two subs to supplement the 800's for HT and music? I shouldn't think the latter would be necessary with the 800's.

Yes I now have a 5.0 Dali Helicon setup. The sound is really "really" nice for home theater listening. For music the 800s are begging for a proper two channel setup (soon I hope). It still sounds great and all with the Onkyo TX-SR875 in stereo mode but the Onkyo struggles.

I am not completely sure what I'm gonna do about a sub. I "think" and "hope" the output on the Salk subs will be rewarding and completely capable of home theater duty but will lend a hand to the 800s when it's time for music.

The 800s do produce a nice low end but I do not want them to work OT. I have nothing but time to find a proper sub. I don't think I need a "king of the jungle" sub just something that is overall great. I would and have considered a sub from SVS but the finish on the cabinet is lacking. It looks like a vinyl laminate and is an ugly duckling compared to the Dali's. I'll have to look for a "real" wood veneer cabinet sub or a high gloss black.

Note to SVS fans: I really like SVS and appreciate their work and would take any of their subs anytime but......... I gotta find what's right for me. Please do not think I am bashing SVS by calling their cabinets an "ugly duckling". I have spoke with them on the phone and have even been invited to their facilities. Their factory is about a half an hour away from me. They can only do so much when it comes to the finish so I have to go with something else.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by richteer

Correct: for stereo bass, you either need a pair of full range speakers, or a pair of subs. Most receivers have only one sub output, for the LFE (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1), so connectiong two subs would be beneficial, but still only mono.

There are a few pre/pros with dual sub outputs, but I think they have the same signal. The only proper ".2" amp that comes to mind is Yamaha's 11.2 channel monster.

All of the preceding assumes that you use the LFE (sub) output. If you connect your subs up to the same way you connect your speakers, then yes, you can have proper stereo bass from them.

The old Fosgate Model 3A THX prepro was a true .2 system also - had true stereo sub inputs.

[Driver_King]

If you've got the money, this is your sub. It's not pretty, granted. Is it the best sub under $5000? Probably. eD is supposed to be getting new finishes for their subs soon too.

[Intamin]

Mdabb, I'd love to hear your system, as it looks like an amazing system, and I can only imagine how great those Dali's must sound. Throw in the Salk subs, or any sub you end up choosing and you've got one helluva system.

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

If you've got the money, this is your sub. It's not pretty, granted. Is it the best sub under $5000? Probably. eD is supposed to be getting new finishes for their subs soon too.

Thanks for the recommendation but............

That's a lot of subwoofer to keep up with. Dual 18s are a little too much physically. I am limited on space for a sub and it's also kind of important to me to match up the finish but also deliver the goods. I have also thought that a high-gloss black would look pleasing but I am going to look for a wood vernier cabinet first. I don't think the Salks will let me down when it comes to SQ or output.

I have read you are picking up a sub from ED but it's still being built. I bet you can't wait until your new toy arrives!!!!!!!!! Hope you enjoy it.... and look forward to your thoughts. Any future plans to upgrade your speakers???

[mdabb]

Prerich and Intamin,

Thanks for the compliments I can't wait to finish bringing together the rest of the system.

Intamin, I hope you enjoy putting together your system as much as I have. I can't wait to see some pics of your Salks. Do you plan on getting anything else from him???

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Prerich and Intamin,

Thanks for the compliments I can't wait to finish bringing together the rest of the system.

Intamin, I hope you enjoy putting together your system as much as I have. I can't wait to see some pics of your Salks. Do you plan on getting anything else from him???

Well, right now I'm trying to put together the two channel first, including all the components. My apartment on campus is incredibly tiny, and my system is in my bedroom, so surround sound in there isn't really an option at the moment. Jim said the STs should be done around the end of the month, so I should have pics up sometime in September. I definitely plan on finishing the surrounds and centers from Jim, and assuming I like these speakers, once I get my own place, I'd like to add either the HT3's or HT2's for a movie room (some day )

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by Intamin

Well, right now I'm trying to put together the two channel first, including all the components. My apartment on campus is incredibly tiny, and my system is in my bedroom, so surround sound in there isn't really an option at the moment. Jim said the STs should be done around the end of the month, so I should have pics up sometime in September. I definitely plan on finishing the surrounds and centers from Jim, and assuming I like these speakers, once I get my own place, I'd like to add either the HT3's or HT2's for a movie room (some day )

I have been reading about your dilemma on your preamp thread. Two channel is important to me as well. No way around it huh? The only good way is a preamp with HT bypass. I'm sure it will work out in the end just give it a little extra time.

I think I read that you picked up an 805 and a Parasound pre. Just checking because if you are only going 2.0 for now maybe the 805 can wait. Unless you have other speakers to use for movies. I know I was so glad when I got the matching center channel. I'll have to check out your thread again to make sure I am current.

[Driver_King]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Thanks for the recommendation but............

That's a lot of subwoofer to keep up with. Dual 18s are a little too much physically. I am limited on space for a sub and it's also kind of important to me to match up the finish but also deliver the goods. I have also thought that a high-gloss black would look pleasing but I am going to look for a wood vernier cabinet first. I don't think the Salks will let me down when it comes to SQ or output.

I have read you are picking up a sub from ED but it's still being built. I bet you can't wait until your new toy arrives!!!!!!!!! Hope you enjoy it.... and look forward to your thoughts. Any future plans to upgrade your speakers???

It's okay. It's a recommendation. It's your choice. Have you looked into SVS or AV123? They have finishes that would probably please you and deliver a bit more than the Salks. And yeah, I'm still waiting for my eD sub and am anxious to get my hands on it. I might upgrade my speakers eventually. Yesterday, I decided I was going to be Mr. Detective and went searching for pics of my Technics SB-4500A's. I've had recurring problems with certain movie sequences that make my speakers sound like they are hitting something. I know the physical woofers are alright (I hope) so I decided to take a good look at the pics of the woofers to see if I noticed something I hadn't before. Then it hit me, I looked at the surround part of the woofer and compared it to the surrounds on my Technics. I laughed at myself and felt like an idiot. The surrounds of my Technics were completely pushed in. I got my allen wrench out and popped the surround out. That's only part of my problem though right now. After I did that, I went to the test tone sequence of my 805 and noticed that both speakers sounded completely different. I was starting to get pissed. I fixed one problem and another comes up. So, I spent well over five minutes screwing around with the settings, trying to make them sound more alike. Well, I got them to a similar volume level, but they still sound completely off. I left the test tone on and went to put the grill back on the left speaker. Guess what? It starts making this scratching sound and flickers on and off. So I hit the top of the speaker and it went away.




A few seconds later...



It cuts out completely. I tried messing with the solder on top of the speaker wire and tried to get all of the strands under the solder. That didn't make any difference. I did a horrible job soldering the wire there and yesterday, I found you're supposed to heat the wire and then put the solder on top of the wire and not just melt the solder on top of it hoping it will work. I didn't ever have problems with the left speaker until yesterday. So now, I have even more problems than I had before. I'm thinking I need to get new binding posts for the Technics because they don't even have any at this point. Any questions, suggestions, or comments are welcome after this long post.

[Beta Man]

I have this sub....

http://www.definitivetech.com/review...ef_DVD1103.pdf

but it's too much sub for my space.... I'm "dealing with it" rather than replacing it, but if you've got the space, it's a very accurate sounding sub.

If you were in the area, I'd work something out.... but there's no way I'd ship it

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

It's okay. It's a recommendation. It's your choice. Have you looked into SVS or AV123? They have finishes that would probably please you and deliver a bit more than the Salks. And yeah, I'm still waiting for my eD sub and am anxious to get my hands on it. I might upgrade my speakers eventually. Yesterday, I decided I was going to be Mr. Detective and went searching for pics of my Technics SB-4500A's. I've had recurring problems with certain movie sequences that make my speakers sound like they are hitting something. I know the physical woofers are alright (I hope) so I decided to take a good look at the pics of the woofers to see if I noticed something I hadn't before. Then it hit me, I looked at the surround part of the woofer and compared it to the surrounds on my Technics. I laughed at myself and felt like an idiot. The surrounds of my Technics were completely pushed in. I got my allen wrench out and popped the surround out. That's only part of my problem though right now. After I did that, I went to the test tone sequence of my 805 and noticed that both speakers sounded completely different. I was starting to get pissed. I fixed one problem and another comes up. So, I spent well over five minutes screwing around with the settings, trying to make them sound more alike. Well, I got them to a similar volume level, but they still sound completely off. I left the test tone on and went to put the grill back on the left speaker. Guess what? It starts making this scratching sound and flickers on and off. So I hit the top of the speaker and it went away.




A few seconds later...



It cuts out completely. I tried messing with the solder on top of the speaker wire and tried to get all of the strands under the solder. That didn't make any difference. I did a horrible job soldering the wire there and yesterday, I found you're supposed to heat the wire and then put the solder on top of the wire and not just melt the solder on top of it hoping it will work. I didn't ever have problems with the left speaker until yesterday. So now, I have even more problems than I had before. I'm thinking I need to get new binding posts for the Technics because they don't even have any at this point. Any questions, suggestions, or comments are welcome after this long post.

Good luck with the repair. The only thing I can recommend is you might want to replace the internal wiring and maybe the x-over's while your at it. Especially if they have seen a few B-DAYS. I have read from quite a few post at "Audio Karma's" website about a sort of "fountain of youth" effect by replacing the guts. They also have a lot of DIY info there as well that may be of interest to you.

[Driver_King]

Originally Posted by mdabb

Good luck with the repair. The only thing I can recommend is you might want to replace the internal wiring and maybe the x-over's while your at it. Especially if they have seen a few B-DAYS. I have read from quite a few post at "Audio Karma's" website about a sort of "fountain of youth" effect by replacing the guts. They also have a lot of DIY info there as well that may be of interest to you.

Well guess what. Yesterday (I know my last post said yesterday too) I unscrewed the back (where the broken binding post is) and found the wiring on both speakers were loose. I got out a few washers to stick below the nut and screwed it down nice and tight. The left speaker works just as good or better and the right speaker has been rejuvenated SQ wise. It's probably all the vibrations that made them come loose. The connections were touchy and made terrible contacts. Good thing I fixed it! I just saved myself a trip to a repair shop and possibly money.