Star Wars: The Original Trilogy (1977-1983)

[segagamer12]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

Is that what I said?

And it is clear cut in the OT - they're clearly not clones. Not one of them has Boba's voice, nor do any of them share the same voice with another trooper. They also have different body sizes and types. We've been over this.

To quote myself from a couple of post up, "So what we're left with is a nod or two to a mistake that was left in the OT and some comments made on BTS materials, vs what's actually shown in the movies. Again, it is what it is. "

To put it another way, outside of the head bumping, there's really nothing in the PT that would even suggest that the storm troopers from the OT are clone troopers. Conversely, there's plenty of evidence in the OT films that show that they are not clones.

I didn't say that, re-read my previous posts, I provided ample evidence that in the OT they were NOT clones. I was just saying that your stance that ignoring everything BUT the OT was what he, the guy you quoted, was saying was weird.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by segagamer12

I didn't say that, re-read my previous posts, I provided ample evidence that in the OT they were NOT clones. I was just saying that your stance that ignoring everything BUT the OT was what he, the guy you quoted, was saying was weird.

I'm not ignoring everything but the OT. I specifically mentioned the novelization of Star Wars and I've acknowledged the "head bumping" in the PT. It's just that the characters we're discussing (storm troopers) only show up in the OT - not the PT - and there's nothing outside of the head bump in the prequel films that would suggest that the storm troopers in the OT are clones. As you've acknowledged, there's plenty of evidence in the films that actually feature those characters to suggest that the storm troopers are not clones.

[StingingVelvet]

All I ever said was that Lucas intended the clones in AotC to be the future Stormtroopers. That is a factual statement, from his own mouth.

I never argued the continuity beyond that, which is why you guys' responses have been totally weird. I said in my very first post on the subject that it's no longer canon from my understanding. You're arguing with a phantom that never existed about words he never said, over and over again.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

All I ever said was that Lucas intended the clones in AotC to be the future Stormtroopers. That is a factual statement, from his own mouth.

I never argued the continuity beyond that, which is why you guys' responses have been totally weird. I said in my very first post on the subject that it's no longer canon from my understanding. You're arguing with a phantom that never existed about words he never said, over and over again.

Except that's not all that you ever said, which is why there are replies to your posts that directly respond to what you've said. You can continue to backtrack if you want, but your arguments are there for all to see.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

Except that's not all that you ever said, which is why there are replies to your posts that directly respond to what you've said. You can continue to backtrack if you want, but your arguments are there for all to see.

I said I think the movie backs that up, which it frankly does. Jango hitting his head, their uniforms, the imperial march playing as they march into star destroyers. Lucas even comments on these things directly and says they are direct ties. I guess you want a clone trooper to look toward camera and say "hey guys we're gonna be stormtroopers!" though, for the intent to be made clear? I dunno.

I do know I said in my very first post on the subject that I realize continuity has changed (again), so I don't know how much clearer on that I could be. You keep yelling at me about what the original trilogy shows or what some spinoff material shows and that has nothing to do with anything.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

All I ever said was that Lucas intended the clones in AotC to be the future Stormtroopers. That is a factual statement, from his own mouth.

I never argued the continuity beyond that, which is why you guys' responses have been totally weird. I said in my very first post on the subject that it's no longer canon from my understanding. You're arguing with a phantom that never existed about words he never said, over and over again.

So Mr. Lucas intended to do something and never followed through on it...well, that makes sense, because that's the whole midichlorian controversy in a nutshell. He only created that as a trail of breadcrumbs leading to Palpatine, demonstrating to Anakin that the Sith could create and sustain life and Anakin was living proof. Anakin learning the Dark Side had this power was supposed to be the cornerstone of his turn and loyalty to the Emperor...but Lucas ultimately only hinted at it, didn't twist the dagger. Sadly, I suspect the bashing he took about the Prequels made him walk back from what he intended to do, and was afraid that Palpatine having a "I am your father" or "Plagueis is your father" moment would piss people off in his very vocal fan base.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

I said I think the movie backs that up, which it frankly does.

Actually, you said:

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Lucas says in the commentaries and BTS materials that the Stormtroopers in the original trilogy are clones. He couldn't have made this more obvious in Attack of the Clones. This was supposedly retconned in some books or cartoons I never read/watched, but they were intended and written to be Stormtroopers in Attack of the Clones.

My own personal opinion: they're both, clones and human conscripts as the clones die off.

and

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

The SE updates are hardly proof of anything. He did those updates before he made Attack of the Clones, a movie which absolutely confirms the stormtroopers were clones, both in its narrative and in his comments on intent in the special features.

It was a decision AFTER that, supposedly shown in the spin-off material, that changed it (again, supposedly).

As I already said, it makes sense to me it would be BOTH. As the clones die off and such, the Emperor brought in human conscripts.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Jango hitting his head, their uniforms, the imperial march playing as they march into star destroyers. Lucas even comments on these things directly and says they are direct ties. I guess you want a clone trooper to look toward camera and say "hey guys we're gonna be stormtroopers!" though, for the intent to be made clear? I dunno.

With the exception of Jango hitting his head, all of the rest can be explained by other reasoning - the clone troopers were the precursor of the storm troopers, with the Republic under Palpatine quickly changing into the Galactic Empire. It's all just more of the "it's like poetry - it rhymes" crap.

Nothing in the film definitively states that the storm troopers in the OT are clones and there is plenty of evidence from the OT that they are not.

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

You keep yelling at me about what the original trilogy shows or what some spinoff material shows and that has nothing to do with anything.

I haven't yelled at you once in this thread - a stark contrast to your own behavior:

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Oh my god.

This is irrelevant! Books and special edition changes are irrelevant! All I ever said was he intended them to be the same when he made AotC, which HE SAYS HIMSELF. What the f*ck else do you want for f*ck's sake? You're going to make me break a keyboard.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

With the exception of Jango hitting his head, all of the rest can be explained by other reasoning - ...

I'll bet if we put out minds to it we could even come up with an explanation for two people hitting their heads thirty years apart that doesn't require them to be genetic duplicates.

[stvn1974]

The Stormtroopers weren't clones. Also Boba Fett wasn't a clone, Anakin wasn't a spoiled brat and Luke and Leia's mother didn't orphan them because she lost the will to live. The prequels never happened.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

Actually, you said:

I said all that from the perspective of that movie, which again was written and designed for them to be the future Stormtroopers, as confirmed by Lucas himself. In that movie, that is what they are. I also said continuity has changed (again) since then. I really don't know why you can't grasp this, but I'm not replying again.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

The Stormtroopers weren't clones. Also Boba Fett wasn't a clone, Anakin wasn't a spoiled brat and Luke and Leia's mother didn't orphan them because she lost the will to live. The prequels never happened.

Well spoken and I completely agree with you.

[segagamer12]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

Well spoken and I completely agree with you.

And Vader never came back to the light, Luke never had a sister, the teddy bears never defeated the Empire because Return of the Jedi never happened either.


Why stop there, Star Wars never happened either, looks like we are all figments of George Lucas's imagination no wonder the guy went nuts with all these conflicting voices inside his head.

[stvn1974]

I just received the three faces laserdiscs for the OT. Going to hit some pawn shops this weekend looking for a player.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by segagamer12

And Vader never came back to the light, Luke never had a sister, the teddy bears never defeated the Empire because Return of the Jedi never happened either.

Awesome. Count me in.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by segagamer12

And Vader never came back to the light, Luke never had a sister, the teddy bears never defeated the Empire because Return of the Jedi never happened either.


Why stop there, Star Wars never happened either, looks like we are all figments of George Lucas's imagination no wonder the guy went nuts with all these conflicting voices inside his head.

Apparently George Lucas made major changes to the story of Return of the Jedi after Raiders of the Lost Ark was released. He was convinced that people cared more about action than the actual story. Apparently in the original outline there was no new Death Star, there were no Ewoks, Han Solo died, and Luke sets off on his own after defeating Darth Vader.

It got to the point where Gary Kurtz & George Lucas had some disagreements and the result was Gary Kurtz leaving the project.
Here is some good info on it.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5611489/origi...e-strikes-back

I am also currently reading this book called How Star Wars Conquered the Universe The Past, Present, and Future of A Multibillion Dollar Franchise. There is so much interesting information in it.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

I just received the three faces laserdiscs for the OT. Going to hit some pawn shops this weekend looking for a player.

If you don't mind me asking how much did those LaserDiscs cost?

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

If you don't mind me asking how much did those LaserDiscs cost?

The owner of a bar my brother frequents gave them to him for free and then he gave them to me. They are in perfect shape. Gave me a bunch of vinyl records for artist that I am a huge fan of like Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath too.

[segagamer12]

I have the Special Editions on LaserDisc, but my player I have no idea what happened to it must have lost it in a move or something.

[dgoswald]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

Apparently George Lucas made major changes to the story of Return of the Jedi after Raiders of the Lost Ark was released. He was convinced that people cared more about action than the actual story. Apparently in the original outline there was no new Death Star, there were no Ewoks, Han Solo died, and Luke sets off on his own after defeating Darth Vader.

That's what I hoped they'd do after ESB. What could've been!

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

Apparently George Lucas made major changes to the story of Return of the Jedi after Raiders of the Lost Ark was released. He was convinced that people cared more about action than the actual story. Apparently in the original outline there was no new Death Star, there were no Ewoks, Han Solo died, and Luke sets off on his own after defeating Darth Vader.

Not that my opinion means anything, but aside from the opening, the action scenes in Raiders were my least favorite parts of the film. I think Raiders worked because of the overall production values, because the opening was so spectacular and we had never seen anything like it before, because of the humor, because Indy's character was very compelling, his relationship with Marion worked (and Karen Allen's smile would win over anyone) and because the story was indeed interesting and somewhat mysterious. The fist fight in the truck, the fight in front of the moving plane and the fight on the tank were the least interesting parts of the film, IMO.

And IMO, the 3rd Indy film worked because of the relationship between Indy and Sean Connery's character, not because of any action, which I can't even recall.

I don't know that Solo needed to die in ROTJ, but it certainly would have been a better film without the second Death Star and without the Ewoks, although the Ewoks at least served a purpose - to show how sometimes the best way to beat advanced technology is without it. And VII would have been better without the planet destroyer or whatever they called it.

Star Trek always seems to have another Enterprise waiting in the wings when the previous one is destroyed on almost every mission Kirk takes with it. (Does anyone think about who pays to build those ships?) Star Wars always seems to have another Death Star equivalent. I realize this all takes place in some advanced future (even if that future was "a long time ago") and we're really only about 135 years into the electrical age and it's been only about 40 years since the invention of the microprocessor, but unless they have self-replicating machines, I don't see how these ships and weapons get built so quickly.