Game developers developing backwards

[greekjgg]

http://www.product-reviews.net/2007/.../#comment-4401


So 2 of the most popular games this year are being developed at 60 fps only on 360, and just 30 fps on Ps3 which is the far superior machine.

They are developing on 360 then porting to ps3 which is posing a problem. If they did this process by developing on ps3 then porting to 360, it would be much easier.

2k sports is also doing this with all pro football. This is a major problem!!

[WickyWoo]

So 2 of the most popular games this year are being developed at 60 fps only on 360, and just 30 fps on Ps3 which is the far superior machine.

Yes and no. The PS3 has horrible developer kits, and getting 7 cores to cooperate and work equally is very difficult. Not to mention that they're not all of equal power, and require seperate programming languages for each type of core. Sony ALWAYS drastically overstates the power of their CPUs when used for real world applications. Remember when they said that they could render the ballroom scene form FF8 in real time on the emotion engine? Or when Killzone was also "real time" (if you condsider 5fps played back at 60 real time)

On the 360, there are 3 cores of equal power, that take the same code. Much easier. Microsoft's developer tools are also lightyears ahead of Sony's

And with the current what, 4:1 install base of PS3 vs 360, which one are you going to spend your time on?

Sony needs to get their act together if they expect to become the primary development platform again, and making what is already expensive and difficult process harder is not helping.

So no, it'd be far harder right now to do PS3>360, because you're spending all your time fighting the hardware to get it to do what you want it to do, rather than solving the problem and then handing it to a port team, so you can spend your time making the game rather than worrying about cross compatibility.

[NARMAK]

First off, i'm gonna come out and say i think you don't have a clue what your chatting about WickyWoo, i've seen articles where senior games developers are even quoted as saying that it is easier to develop first on the PS3 and then port over to the 360.

Yes, the installed base of the PS3 is lower than the 360 but that doesn't mean the games not able to be developed on the PS3 as the lead platform and then a porting process send it to the 360.

If Install base was the case, why aren't all multi platform games made for the PS2 as the lead platform with an install base of 100+ million and then ported over to other consoles if install base is what makes you decided to work on a console.

Haze has the PS3 as it's lead platform, from what is rumored, it will be making it's way to the 360 and PC as well, so why is it you think THAT developer decided that the PS3 would be the lead platform for it's development when it's install base is lower. Go read the articles linked into the main Haze thread and you'll see why

[BluManta]

Originally Posted by NARMAK

First off, i'm gonna come out and say i think you don't have a clue what your chatting about WickyWoo, i've seen articles where senior games developers are even quoted as saying that it is easier to develop first on the PS3 and then port over to the 360.

Yes, the installed base of the PS3 is lower than the 360 but that doesn't mean the games not able to be developed on the PS3 as the lead platform and then a porting process send it to the 360.

If Install base was the case, why aren't all multi platform games made for the PS2 as the lead platform with an install base of 100+ million and then ported over to other consoles if install base is what makes you decided to work on a console.

Haze has the PS3 as it's lead platform, from what is rumored, it will be making it's way to the 360 and PC as well, so why is it you think THAT developer decided that the PS3 would be the lead platform for it's development when it's install base is lower. Go read the articles linked into the main Haze thread and you'll see why

It is true that its super hard to develop for the ps3 tho. Developers are lazy and what to do whats easyer. They dont get paid anymore for working on a ps3 which is harder. These people are making games for money not for costomers or the better game. It is stupid but thats the way it is. Sony do have to do something about this.
I understand sony are always trying to help developers etc. and I'm sure they are still making tools to make developers life easyer. But a the moment the 360 is very easy to work on and the ps3 is very hard.
Just remember, the ps3 is a future console. In the future it will change. All developers will be working on the ps3. At the moment the 360 is now.

The Developers at Haze are good to there customers, they always have been. But more then that they want the best game, thats why they chose the ps3. It is still hard to work on but its worth it to get the best game.

Other Developers that go for the easy 360 will never yes never get the best game.

[greekjgg]

I agree that 360 is the dominant console, and frankly that is where the money is right now. However, there are ways to solve this problem.

Many people waited to purchase madden when it came out with ps3. They could simply delay the launch of Madden 08 versus cutting corners to ship with the 360 version. As excited as I am to play madden, I could wait another few months for them to get this right.

[KingDeezie]

I don't think the problem is that developers are lazy and just want the easier way out, they want the cheaper way out...

The ps3 is a complicated system to develop for, especially with a port, and the extra cost it would take to develop the game to perform at the same level won't be regain in sales because the PS3 has limited market penetration right now compared to 360 and Wii.

Patience in this case will pay off when we see the PS3 eventually have the larger growing room.

[WickyWoo]

Many people waited to purchase madden when it came out with ps3. They could simply delay the launch of Madden 08 versus cutting corners to ship with the 360 version. As excited as I am to play madden, I could wait another few months for them to get this right.

And that will never happen. All versions drop the same day assuming that the console is in existance at the time. They spend millions marketing the game, and 50% of purchases are made in the first 6 days of a game/movie's life.

The best thing to do is to nag Sony to get their developer kits up to par. It has nothing to do with developers being lazy. It has to do with efficiency. Microsoft shipped a mature devkit with the 360, full of tools to make tools. Working the bugs out of your code, and trying new things is simplyfar less time consuming on the 360 than it is anywhere else, and therefore faster and cheaper for the same end result.

Just like with the emotion engine, 5 years from now those 7 cores aren't going to look like the huge thing they are now. With Sega Saturn hardly anyone but AM2 hit the 2nd processor because it was too hard to get them to work together. Getting multithreaded code to work is hard, and what makes it far harder is when you have to program cores in completely seperate languages.

John Carmack is one of the best 3D engine programmers in the world, a metal assembly language programmer, and he has a long talk about the capabilities of the 2 systems from last year's QuakeCon on google video. Check it out. His conclusion? Both are roughly equally powerful in the end, but that the 360 is far easier to get your code up and running on due to both the devkit and the fact you have those 3 equal cores.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by greekjgg

I agree that 360 is the dominant console, and frankly that is where the money is right now..

Actually, the PS2 is where the money is right now. Far and away the most userbase and still has plenty of gamer interest.

[Captain Wiggles]

Can you please site the article that states that each SPE requires a different and specific programming language? From a programming/hardware stand-point it it does not make sense.

[WickyWoo]

Can you please site the article that states that each SPE requires a different and specific programming language? From a programming/hardware stand-point it it does not make sense.

The main core and the satellite cores are 2 different languages. Not each individual core.

He talked about it in greater detail inthe QuakeCon video, but here he talks about a lot of what I've been saying. I don't have time right now to watch 2 hours of video to find the timecode

What I get the impression of is that it is a similar situation to the Saturn, where they found out late in the game(and by late in the game, that's as much as 2-3 years before product launch) that their single, very powerful CPU wasn't going to cut it, and grafted on a lot more cores.

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Sto...034.htm?Page=3

I'm not saying that PS3 is a bad system at all, I'm just trying to help people understand, especially at this point in the game, why they're developing on 360 and then porting.

[Captain Wiggles]

From reading that article, I think you may be slightly confused as it does not mention anything regarding the SPE and PPE. The PPE and SPEs (as far as I have read on the net) support multiple programming languges and the same can be used for both. The part where they differ is that the code to be run on the SPEs must be written seperate from the main PPE programming. The PPE isn't capable of dividing up the code into seperate functions for each SPE, the developers are given that responsibility and all of the load balancing and resource management that accompanies it. Giving the devs a much more bare-bones access to the system and near total control over it's functions.

[BluManta]

Originally Posted by KingDeezie

I don't think the problem is that developers are lazy and just want the easier way out, they want the cheaper way out...

The ps3 is a complicated system to develop for, especially with a port, and the extra cost it would take to develop the game to perform at the same level won't be regain in sales because the PS3 has limited market penetration right now compared to 360 and Wii.

Patience in this case will pay off when we see the PS3 eventually have the larger growing room.

Yeah, Thats what I ment, I kinda miss wrote it lol.
I got the PS3 knowing that now is not its time. Its a machine for the future and waiting is what you have to do.
If you got the PS3 expecting it to have its potential in the box with it, you were so wrong. The PS3 isn't really a PS3 till a year or so. Or maybe months. Remeber the PS2. Took its time but when it got good, it got really good. The PS3 is the new improved, more advanced PS2 with alot of advanced extras. And advanced stuff is hard to make. So advanced games will have to wait as we have to wait for the 360 to be used to the extream, like gears of war, and Developers need more room. Thats where the PS3 comes in.

[Sylin]

Coming from someone who used to work in the gaming industry--and has friends who work for Tiburon Studios (makes of Madden NFL), id, Activision, Blizzard and Maxis--I can tell you that WickyWoo isn't completely off the mark here.

From a performance standpoint, X360 and PS3 are about equal. Same for graphics (go read the Gamespot article about how the X360 trumps the PS3 visuals). But this is a combination of factors here, because how a game looks or performs depends as much on hardware as it does on programming and optimization. I'm sure PS3, due to the hardware, might be able to best the X360 in many categories, but the developer interest isn't there. And quite honestly, until Sony flushes the bugs out of, and drastically improves, their online services, it'll remain that way. Multiplayer MAKES a game these days, and there just isn't a Halo or Gears of War or C&C3 equivalent for PS3... yet.

Personally I think there's only room in the American economy for 2 of the 3 consoles, so someone will have to give. I wouldn't mind if the Wii is Nintendo's last console and they license their properties out for cross-platform development in the future, because they've fallen so far behind in terms of quality, selection and innovation. Sony and MS can share the market, but Sony needs to be careful because, as I stated, MS has a HUGELY popular online appeal that'll only get strong with PC integration on Xbox Live.

Just my $0.02, from a former insiders perspective.

[BluManta]

Originally Posted by ikcizokm

Coming from someone who used to work in the gaming industry--and has friends who work for Tiburon Studios (makes of Madden NFL), id, Activision, Blizzard and Maxis--I can tell you that WickyWoo isn't completely off the mark here.

From a performance standpoint, X360 and PS3 are about equal. Same for graphics (go read the Gamespot article about how the X360 trumps the PS3 visuals). But this is a combination of factors here, because how a game looks or performs depends as much on hardware as it does on programming and optimization. I'm sure PS3, due to the hardware, might be able to best the X360 in many categories, but the developer interest isn't there. And quite honestly, until Sony flushes the bugs out of, and drastically improves, their online services, it'll remain that way. Multiplayer MAKES a game these days, and there just isn't a Halo or Gears of War or C&C3 equivalent for PS3... yet.

Personally I think there's only room in the American economy for 2 of the 3 consoles, so someone will have to give. I wouldn't mind if the Wii is Nintendo's last console and they license their properties out for cross-platform development in the future, because they've fallen so far behind in terms of quality, selection and innovation. Sony and MS can share the market, but Sony needs to be careful because, as I stated, MS has a HUGELY popular online appeal that'll only get strong with PC integration on Xbox Live.

Just my $0.02, from a former insiders perspective.

I do agree with you and its kinda what i'm trying to say. The ps3 can beat the 360 but its very hard to make it do that. where as the 360 is easy to make a good game for. PS3 developers have to try alot harder to make a game equal to a game that was easy to make on a 360. But a game that would beat the 360 will be extreamly hard.
Multiplayer online is the future of gameing. Its fun and make consoles extreamly social. You dont have to go out to make friends. Also everybody loves to play with/against a real person and not a computer. Its really fun.
No doubt Xbox live kicks PSN's ass at the moment. Mostly because you can join chats anytime you like. You dont have to quit the game. And you can look at messages or send new ones without exiting a game. I know resistance have gone halfway but it would be great if you could do it from the ps button anytime.
I remember hearing that its up to the developers to make this possible. Its not. Its up to sony. Developers cant develop for the PS button or XMB. It has to be done in an update.

Anyhoo, Sony have some work to do aswell as developers. And I am sure it will be fixed in the future.

[WickyWoo]

From reading that article, I think you may be slightly confused as it does not mention anything regarding the SPE and PPE. The PPE and SPEs (as far as I have read on the net) support multiple programming languges and the same can be used for both. The part where they differ is that the code to be run on the SPEs must be written seperate from the main PPE programming

You're probably right that that's what I'm misremembering

In either case, I still highly recommend the Carmack video. It's fascinating

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...plindex=5sMdBA

[Ender]

Originally Posted by BluManta

Multiplayer online is the future of gameing.

I hope not, that will be the end of gaming for me. I would much rather immerse myself in a Final Fantasy or Resident Evil than listen to little kids screaming obscenities in whatever generic FPS is popular at the moment.

[shido]

Originally Posted by greekjgg

http://www.product-reviews.net/2007/.../#comment-4401


So 2 of the most popular games this year are being developed at 60 fps only on 360, and just 30 fps on Ps3 which is the far superior machine.

They are developing on 360 then porting to ps3 which is posing a problem. If they did this process by developing on ps3 then porting to 360, it would be much easier.

2k sports is also doing this with all pro football. This is a major problem!!

New PS3 development tools just came out for the PS3, so I'm guessing the devs didn't get them in time to use them for these games. Also, I've read on another forum that devs have said it's much more difficult to port to PS3 from 360 than it is vice versa. In other words, it'd be easier for them if they had the PS3 as the lead dev platform instead of the 360, but they aren't doing that right now because the 360 has a larger install base. In time though, the PS3 will catch up to the 360 in terms of development ease. Remember, the last two Madden games on the 360 ran at only 30fps. Only on their third try did they get it running at 60fps. This would only be their 2nd Madden title on the PS3, so they're still learning the nuances of the platform.

[Azza]

Originally Posted by ikcizokm

Multiplayer MAKES a game these days, and there just isn't a Halo or Gears of War or C&C3 equivalent for PS3... yet

Im guessing you aint played ROFM online then.

[Shin-Ra]

Originally Posted by Ender

I hope not, that will be the end of gaming for me. I would much rather immerse myself in a Final Fantasy or Resident Evil than listen to little kids screaming obscenities in whatever generic FPS is popular at the moment.

Yup, online games haven't matured nearly as much as the best single player experiences. However great your internet connection may be.. other people can still have or even cause connection problems and spoil your enjoyment.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

And with the current what, 4:1 install base of PS3 vs 360, which one are you going to spend your time on?

10:3.5 or 2.86:1

Assuming the 10 million doesn't have the upwards of 30% failures included.

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Sony needs to get their act together if they expect to become the primary development platform again, and making what is already expensive and difficult process harder is not helping.

That I would agree with. But, the Cell is a new paradigm and it will take time for compilers and programmers to exploit. Unless someone took the chance, like Sony, such a thing would be generally next impossible to launch.

How much of the capability of the PS/3 is being left unexploited, and how do the games match up right now? If the PS/3 is reasonably close now, it means it could be well ahead later in the life cycle.

Gary