Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

But that assumes that every title will be available on all the latest formats.

I'd like every title to have the highest quality video it possibly can but I'm not going to ignore older titles just because they can't reach the video quality of newer titles. Is a Blu-ray better than a DVD of the same title? Absolutely. But is a movie or TV show bad because it's only available on DVD? Absolutely not.

Originally Posted by whipnet

A good example of this would be the movie by James Cameron "The Abyss" Find a Blu-ray or digital copy of that!

DVD is your only option that I can find. (I think you can watch on Starz, but not to own)

I know what you guys mean, but do you watch old DVD Movies that much anymore? I have about a hundred old DVD Movies that I have watched maybe one time, I just don't have the time or energy to watch them again. These old Movies when they upgrade them to a new Format I will watch again. I love Aviation Movies, and Blue Max is one of my favorites. When it went DVD I watched it, Blu-ray the same, then it went Digital HD and I watched it again. If it goes UHD I'm sure I will watch it several times, but I won't go back to watch it in DVD. It's nice to keep an old Collection, but does anyone have the time or will to watch these Old Movies in Obsolete Formats.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

...
VUDU (the source is Jake from VUDU but I can't find the post)
720p = 4.5Mbps
1080p = 9Mbps
UHD = 15Mbps

....

Here is the post.

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

There are absolutely not the same. From VUDU Engineering:

Blu-ray far exceeds 9Mbps, with rates that target between 15-25Mbps and peak at 40Mbps. UHD discs peak at 108Mbps.

....

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I know what you guys mean, but do you watch old DVD Movies that much anymore?

Absolutely. I have some favorites that are only available on DVD. I'm not going to give them up just because they haven't (and probably never will) come out on a later format.

Originally Posted by alchav21

I have about a hundred old DVD Movies that I have watched maybe one time, I just don't have the time or energy to watch them again. These old Movies when they upgrade them to a new Format I will watch again. I love Aviation Movies, and Blue Max is one of my favorites. When it went DVD I watched it, Blu-ray the same, then it went Digital HD and I watched it again. If it goes UHD I'm sure I will watch it several times, but I won't go back to watch it in DVD.

Where's the cut off point? When 4K is common are you going to stop watching everything that is only HD? When 8K is common are you going to stop watching everything that is only 4K?

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's nice to keep an old Collection, but does anyone have the time or will to watch these Old Movies in Obsolete Formats.

The formats may be obsolete but the movies aren't. If specific movies don't make it to later formats than the old formats are still worth something.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's nice to keep an old Collection, but does anyone have the time or will to watch these Old Movies in Obsolete Formats.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Absolutely. I have some favorites that are only available on DVD. I'm not going to give them up just because they haven't (and probably never will) come out on a later format.

Where's the cut off point? When 4K is common are you going to stop watching everything that is only HD? When 8K is common are you going to stop watching everything that is only 4K?

The formats may be obsolete but the movies aren't. If specific movies don't make it to later formats than the old formats are still worth something.

It's one thing to keep a Collection, I'm talking about watching them. New Movies and Programming come out everyday there just not enough time to watch them all, let alone old Movies. Yes these old Movies are worth something, but no time to watch them. Most of the time they look nice just sitting on a shelf. The cut off point is time, there is only so much time to watch something, so I'll watch it in the latest Format and I think that goes for most. I had a lot of DVD's still in the Shrink Wrap, but I made it priority to watch my Blu-rays at least once. Digital is easier I can watch them in parts, or just my favorite parts and come back to them anytime with ease.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

It's one thing to keep a Collection, I'm talking about watching them. New Movies and Programming come out everyday there just not enough time to watch them all, let alone old Movies. Yes these old Movies are worth something, but no time to watch them.

I'm sorry if I was unclear: I frequently watch my DVDs. I've watched 6 of my old DVDs in the last week. When I said value I meant personal value not monetary value. Though the monetary value is what ensures they remain available on the used market.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Digital is easier I can watch them in parts, or just my favorite parts and come back to them anytime with ease.

The very fact that you have "favorite parts" confirms that you are rewatching movies. If some of those movies are only available digitally then there will be a time when you won't be able to watch them. Those "favorite parts" will be completely inaccessible. And future generations will never even get to experience your favorites in the first place because they won't be available.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Digital is easier I can watch them in parts, or just my favorite parts and come back to them anytime with ease.

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

The very fact that you have "favorite parts" confirms that you are rewatching movies. If some of those movies are only available digitally then there will be a time when you won't be able to watch them. Those "favorite parts" will be completely inaccessible. And future generations will never even get to experience your favorites in the first place because they won't be available.

You keep saying I'm going to lose my Digital Movies, and I'm going on three years now without losing any of them. Like I said, the Studios want you to have Ownership of your Digital Movies. So I have full confidence that my "Favorite Parts" will be there for a long time to come. As for future generations, I won't be around but I'm sure they will be on a Server somewhere.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You keep saying I'm going to lose my Digital Movies, and I'm going on three years now without losing any of them. Like I said, the Studios want you to have Ownership of your Digital Movies. So I have full confidence that my "Favorite Parts" will be there for a long time to come.

Three years without them being taken away is not a good indication that they'll be available for decades. If I had bought downloadable content for the original Xbox, in 2010 I could have stated "I've gone 7 years without losing any content". You keep acting like 3 years is a long time... it isn't.

Since you're so sure they will never be taken away: If some of your movies are taken away at some point in the future will you give up on digital at that point?

Originally Posted by alchav21

As for future generations, I won't be around but I'm sure they will be on a Server somewhere.

I'm not worried that someone, somewhere will have access to the movies. I'm sure someone has high quality transfers of the unaltered Star Wars trilogy but it isn't available to the public. I'm sure Disney has a copy Song of the South in their vaults (probably even with digital backups) but they haven't made it available. I'm sure Human Target Season 2 (which was available digitally when it aired and then removed) is on a server somewhere.

I'm sure there are thousands of movies and TV shows that the studios have on their internal servers that aren't accessible to the public. Having a copy somewhere and making a copy accessible to the public are two very different things.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

You keep saying I'm going to lose my Digital Movies, and I'm going on three years now without losing any of them. Like I said, the Studios want you to have Ownership of your Digital Movies. So I have full confidence that my "Favorite Parts" will be there for a long time to come. As for future generations, I won't be around but I'm sure they will be on a Server somewhere.

The first 3 years are a very bad example because due to the terms of the license they are required to maintain your access to your digital copys for 2 to 3 years after you purchased them (after that they are not required to maintain the servers or even allow you to stream your content free of charge). Its like saying my tv will last forever since it lasted 3 years and the warranty was for 3 years.

The servers may keep running they may not charge you to let you stream your videos but the safety is only just starting to come off and the future for any particular digital service is still uncertain. Every year it seems one or two digital providers has gone out of business or been bought out. They may not help with transferring titles when a company goes out of business once they aren't financially required to by the licenses.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Like I said, the Studios want you to have Ownership of your Digital Movies.

We keep telling you digital is a license not ownership. The studios want to lease you movies and remove third party sellers/ second hand sellers. The whole reason studios are pushing digital is because they dont want people to own copies of movies (that grants to many rights) they want people to license movies so they maintain a much larger degree of control.

You say you own your digital movies yet vudu can literally charge you to stream/download them if they want (once 2 years is up as per uv terms and and conditions).

[Steedeel]

I don't see how EST can succeed at this point. They tried early release, it hasn't really provided the boost that studios desire. The sales of Digital HD will be sending shockwaves in the industry. DVD sales are falling rapidly but Bluray is proving stubborn and digging its heels in.

As I have said many times before, Subscription is the big winner. I think we will see exclusives tied to each company in years to come. Similar to the recent TW, AT&T merger, several other mergers will happen and we will need seperate subscriptions to access different studios content. I see this as a lose lose for all of us. Even more so if all these services are pushed towards mobile due to unlimited data caps offers (as discussion in another thread). Where that leaves Netflix, Amazon I don't know. I'm sure they will carve out their own path though.

Finally, I feel confident that Digital HD will continue to flatline (experts were predicting years and years of growth lol) unless another Ultraviolet style format is introduced very soon that can save EST. They will need to act fast though.

In the meantime, I'm loving the cult Bluray releases this year, it's been a joy. I'm sick and tired of all this depressing future crap, I only see problems and the slow death of my beloved hobby. Greed, Obsession with targeted ads, swallowing of innovative options and the continuing obsession with mobile is putting a stake in the heart of movies, oh along with the slowly vanishing creative individuals that bring us the movies, replaced by IMO, clueless suits. But that is a discussion for another time.

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by veritas

The first 3 years are a very bad example because due to the terms of the license they are required to maintain your access to your digital copys for 2 to 3 years after you purchased them (after that they are not required to maintain the servers or even allow you to stream your content free of charge). Its like saying my tv will last forever since it lasted 3 years and the warranty was for 3 years.

The servers may keep running they may not charge you to let you stream your videos but the safety is only just starting to come off and the future for any particular digital service is still uncertain. Every year it seems one or two digital providers has gone out of business or been bought out. They may not help with transferring titles when a company goes out of business once they aren't financially required to by the licenses.



We keep telling you digital is a license not ownership. The studios want to lease you movies and remove third party sellers/ second hand sellers. The whole reason studios are pushing digital is because they dont want people to own copies of movies (that grants to many rights) they want people to license movies so they maintain a much larger degree of control.

You say you own your digital movies yet vudu can literally charge you to stream/download them if they want (once 2 years is up as per uv terms and and conditions).

I have been buying UV since day one....6 years? give or take. 1400+ movies/TV. Maybe I'm supposed to be worried but, I'm really not. And if they decide to charge me for access, I wouldn't have a problem with a reasonable fee, because the ease of use is worth it. I do feel like I own them even if it is just a license but, that is true of my discs also, I only own the plastic, not the content but, yes, it's true it would be easier for them to take my digital than my discs, I just don't think they will.

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I don't see how EST can succeed at this point. They tried early release, it hasn't really provided the boost that studios desire. The sales of Digital HD will be sending shockwaves in the industry. DVD sales are falling rapidly but Bluray is proving stubborn and digging its heels in.

As I have said many times before, Subscription is the big winner. I think we will see exclusives tied to each company in years to come. Similar to the recent TW, AT&T merger, several other mergers will happen and we will need seperate subscriptions to access different studios content. I see this as a lose lose for all of us. Even more so if all these services are pushed towards mobile due to unlimited data caps offers (as discussion in another thread). Where that leaves Netflix, Amazon I don't know. I'm sure they will carve out their own path though.

Finally, I feel confident that Digital HD will continue to flatline (experts were predicting years and years of growth lol) unless another Ultraviolet style format is introduced very soon that can save EST. They will need to act fast though.

In the meantime, I'm loving the cult Bluray releases this year, it's been a joy. I'm sick and tired of all this depressing future crap, I only see problems and the slow death of my beloved hobby. Greed, Obsession with targeted ads, swallowing of innovative options and the continuing obsession with mobile is putting a stake in the heart of movies, oh along with the slowly vanishing creative individuals that bring us the movies, replaced by IMO, clueless suits. But that is a discussion for another time.

EST will slowly replace discs imo......... Most people don't care about owning/collecting. These are the people who use to rent at brick and mortar video stores but now just use the subscription services (Netflix) this will always be the way most people do it.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by huskerbear

I do feel like I own them even if it is just a license but, that is true of my discs also, I only own the plastic, not the content but, yes, it's true it would be easier for them to take my digital than my discs, I just don't think they will.

To be clear: the disc is the license. You're not allowed to separate the content from the disc. But you can do whatever you want with them as a pair and the studios have absolutely no legal right to take them away.

The reason digital can become unavailable is because they aren't technically taking anything away, they're just not providing access anymore. They aren't required to keep providing support, nor should they be. But their support isn't needed for physical media.

Originally Posted by huskerbear

EST will slowly replace discs imo......... Most people don't care about owning/collecting. These are the people who use to rent at brick and mortar video stores but now just use the subscription services (Netflix) this will always be the way most people do it.

It's true that most people don't care about owning or collecting, but the people who do aren't buying digital in high numbers. Therefore I don't expect EST to take off either. Most people will be happy with subscription services and digital rentals. But the collectors will stick with physical media.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by huskerbear

EST will slowly replace discs imo......... Most people don't care about owning/collecting. These are the people who use to rent at brick and mortar video stores but now just use the subscription services (Netflix) this will always be the way most people do it.

If most people down care about owning, why buy through EST? That makes zero sense. How will EST thrive, if most people are already in the mindset of watching the odd movie on Netflix/Amazon combined with binge watching the latest series. As I have said before, the all you can eat method has killed any chance Digital HD ever had. Digital should be taking off now, the truth is, only Netflix and Amazon etc.. are seeing any real benefits.

Those thought patterns are present in the industry right now, so much so that they are desperate to try to find a new system to replace UV IMO. It may happen this year, but they have to get it right this time or it's goodnight EST.

[whipnet]

Here is some real world data pertaining to streaming bitrates.
I tested a HD movie across 5 different services for comparison.
I chose a Disney movie so there wouldn’t be any confusion with 4K or UHD.
Iron Man was chosen because it was offered across the most of my services.

Equipment
Cisco DPC3008 cable modem
Cisco ASA 5505 [ASA 9.2(4)5] [ASDM 7.6(2)]
Comcast Internet 150mb down
ROKU 2 connected to Ethernet port and its own VLAN on the router.

I am aware that different platforms and different apps may perform entirely different. These are the results I got using the same equipment for the same movie.

Notes: DMA uses a multiple server environment to stream your movie. They seem to have a startup server that gets the movie started and them dumps it off to multiple servers to carry the load throughout the movie. The other services tested all used a single server setup for your personal stream. (Meaning that the services all have hundreds of servers, but you’ll only connect to one of them for the entirety of the stream.)

I don’t know what’s up with Google, but their service on ROKU is abysmal. I tested it multiple times on multiple days and got pretty much the same result. I don’t remember Google Play being so bad, but they recently updated their app (you have to set it up on your phone now.. for Roku!) so maybe it’s just the new app. The thing is, the test movie was purchased from Google! Lol.

I understand that there is compression and they all use it, but movies only compress so far and no one out there has a miracle compression system. They’re all within a stone’s throw of one another.

I’ve included burst rates and streaming averages, but the true number is seen in the total data downloaded.

Movie:
Iron Man (2008) HD
I took the same 16 minute slice of the movie across all services. All data recorded started at the press of the play button at the beginning of the movie and stopped at the moment of the Jericho demonstration explosion.

Test:
DMA
Time to start movie – 27secs
Max burst rate – 35000kbs (35mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 5166kbs (5.1mb)
Streaming rate – 3500kbs (3.5mb)
Total data downloaded – 496mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 2.0
Port – 80
Server(s) - 23.216.55.35 | 23.205.120.56 & 23.205.12.34 - Akamai Technologies

VUDU
Time to start movie – 7 secs
Max burst rate – 52000kbs (52mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 12281kbs (12.2mb)
Streaming rate – 9100kbs (9.1mb)
Total data downloaded – 1179mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 80
Server(s) – 72.21.81.254 - MCI Communications Services

Google
Time to start movie – 33secs
Max burst rate – 3200kbs (3.2mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 1072kbs (1.1mb)
Streaming rate – 900kbs (0.9mb)
Total data downloaded – 103mb
Video – 1080 (?)
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 443
Server(s) – 173.194.24.250 - Google Inc.

Amazon
Time to start movie – 16secs
Max burst rate – 20000kbs (20mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 13395kbs (13.4mb)
Streaming rate – 9300kbs (9.3mb)
Total data downloaded – 1286mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 5.1
Port – 80
Server(s) – 54.182.205.33 - Amazon Technologies Inc.

Hulu
Time to start movie – 36secs
Max burst rate – 27000kbs (27mb)
Average rate w/ burst – 8114kbs (8.1mb)
Streaming rate – 6100kbs (6.1mb)
Total data downloaded – 779mb
Video – 1080
Audio – DD 2.0
Port – 80
Server(s) – 152.195.3.40 - ANS Communications, Inc

Eventually I'll do a full movie test, but that's time consuming and will show results close to this anyway.

[flyry]

I'd like to see some Netflix or Amazon UHD vs BD.

I'm going from 50mb/s to 300 soon so I can't wait to see the difference

[billygreen23]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Here is some real world data pertaining to streaming bitrates.

Thanks for doing that. That's awesome. I'd also be really curious about how iTunes on an Apple TV compares.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by billygreen23

Thanks for doing that. That's awesome. I'd also be really curious about how iTunes on an Apple TV compares.

Thanks. I knew that would be one of the first questions, but I don't do Apple. And no Roku app for this test. Sorry .

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

If most people down care about owning, why buy through EST? That makes zero sense. How will EST thrive, if most people are already in the mindset of watching the odd movie on Netflix/Amazon combined with binge watching the latest series. As I have said before, the all you can eat method has killed any chance Digital HD ever had. Digital should be taking off now, the truth is, only Netflix and Amazon etc.. are seeing any real benefits.

Those thought patterns are present in the industry right now, so much so that they are desperate to try to find a new system to replace UV IMO. It may happen this year, but they have to get it right this time or it's goodnight EST.

There is nothing with UV that needs replaced, polished maybe some say, but the concept is exactly what was needed. The issue some have are with their preferred store fronts not joining (although many still continue to scream for an itunes code instead of asking for them to simply join). Nobody knows why they haven't but would replacing it or changing the name help that....no clue but, in the mean time millions are not suffering with Vudu, including me

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by flyry

I'd like to see some Netflix or Amazon UHD vs BD.

That would be misleading, since the UHD services use the H.265 codec, which is significantly more efficient than the H.264 that is used on BD. Amazon may be using H.265 even for HD (they announced that they would a while ago, but I don't know if they have already started).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by whipnet

Thanks. I knew that would be one of the first questions, but I don't do Apple. And no Roku app for this test. Sorry .

I did a quick test on the Apple TV 4 with the same movie (Iron Man (2008)) on my pfSense router using NtopNG.

Total data downloaded during the first 16 minutes was 1.27GB (which would be equivalent to an average rate of 13,229 kb/s), but I think this is misleading, since the ATV4 pre-buffers quite far in advance (it's really more like progressive downloading), so that amount includes more than just the first 16 minutes of the movie. How did you exclude pre-buffering in your tests without measuring the whole movie?