Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[78deluxe]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Very few of their titles sold out quickly at full price. But once they started offering sales, titles such as Rains of Rachipur, Swamp Water, Bonjour Tristesse sold out all 3000 copies. Hence, my assertion that there is a market for releases such as those but only at the right price. People will buy those titles at $10-$15, just not $30.



Yeah, but they do. And they trumpet it quite loudly, playing on the fact that many people will panic buy if they think they're going to miss out. But more importantly, they play up the fact that if a title sells out, it's gone for good particularly as they have stated they will no longer offer encore editions. A Kino title may sell only 500 copies for all I know and that's fine. Nobody is the wiser. But some Kino titles may sell like hotcakes and if so, they print more copies and sell to meet that demand so that everyone who wants a copy can get one and without having to pay $30 for the privilege.

Hey, if Twilight Time feel that it's necessary to drop down to 1500 runs in order to sustain themselves, then that's fine. BUT, doing that AND playing up the whole "if it's sold out, it's gone for good" is NOT okay with me. There are too many other players on the scene proving that sort of business model is not necessary for them to keep feeding us that line.

Exactly - I've bought a number of titles at the $30 price point. But with the $10-15 sales I bought a ton of them that I'd never pay $30+ for, but gladly pay the $10-15.

[klauswhereareyou]

I'm going to guess a title like The Roots of Heaven didn't even sell 1,000 copies until they started discounting it.

[Cutter_]

For me it's just that TT hasn't been putting out titles that I want recently. Christine and Vampires are John Carpenter films, The Sinbad films, Night of the Living Dead, Mysterious Island. These were titles I lined up for. But I was never happy buying the movies because of the price. $30.00 plus $5 shipping. Yes I was extremely happy to get the blu-ray, but never happy with the price. The only title that I want now is The 3 worlds of Gulliver, but I'm waiting on the next sale, because $35, including shipping, is way too high for a blu-ray. I do the same with Criterion, I buy when there are sales, as full price is too much for even Criterion titles. In my opinion, this model does do better with the sales. It got me to buy two titles this week, that I would have not bought at full price.

[Cutter_]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Very few of their titles sold out quickly at full price. But once they started offering sales, titles such as Rains of Rachipur, Swamp Water, Bonjour Tristesse sold out all 3000 copies. Hence, my assertion that there is a market for releases such as those but only at the right price. People will buy those titles at $10-$15, just not $30.

agreed!

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Hey, if Twilight Time feel that it's necessary to drop down to 1500 runs in order to sustain themselves, then that's fine. BUT, doing that AND playing up the whole "if it's sold out, it's gone for good" is NOT okay with me. There are too many other players on the scene proving that sort of business model is not necessary for them to keep feeding us that line.

They already said they're not doing reissues. Whether the limit is 1500 or 3000 is irrelevant. A title that would warrant 3000 copies several years ago is only worth a 1500 print now because the market is that bad.

It's like you still haven't accepted the concept of their business model yet. They themselves have stated that collectors are their target market. Limited edition is not 3000 copies selling out and repeating the process over and over until there's no demand left. That's Kino and the other label's business model. Only they don't reveal how many copies were printed.

Selling out doesn't mean the title won't be back from other labels and many if not most of them are available in other markets as well. I would much rather have them offer 1500 copies at full price (although it wouldn't hurt to drop that full price by $5 or so), never have sales, then the alternative. Nothing at all. If they only have 1500 to sell, then they need to have a higher average selling price and that would mean few if any sales.

[klauswhereareyou]

A way they could cut costs and maybe pass them along to the consumer:

*If the isolated scores cost some kind of licensing fee drop those.

*Drop the booklets. Add an extra feature to the discs that includes any set pictures that would've been used for the booklets.

*Drop the in house special features.

*Drop the number of units produced on titles that will struggle to sell out at 3,000.

I'd say they should do this if this shaves the price down by 5-10 bucks.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by bruceames

They already said they're not doing reissues. Whether the limit is 1500 or 3000 is irrelevant. A title that would warrant 3000 copies several years ago is only worth a 1500 print now because the market is that bad.

They said they weren't doing reissues back when they were doing runs of 3000 titles. But if they're dropping their runs down to 1500, they really need to re-evaluate that. If a title struggles to sell out at even 1500 copies, fair enough, but if a title sells really well at those numbers? Frankly, it would be stupid not to. What's worth more to them? Satisfying a few "collector's" whining about the scalp value of their blu-ray or the ability to shift more copies of a popular title via a re-issue?

Originally Posted by bruceames

It's like you still haven't accepted the concept of their business model yet. They themselves have stated that collectors are their target market. Limited edition is not 3000 copies selling out and repeating the process over and over until there's no demand left. That's Kino and the other label's business model. Only they don't reveal how many copies were printed.

No, I've quietly tolerated it because it seemed to be chugging along just fine, but I've never accepted it. And many other people haven't either. And I consider myself to be a fan and a regular customer of this label. Many consumers flat out refuse to buy from them simply based on their business model, which is something they have to consider when they wonder why their titles aren't selling all that well. It's not like they're selling a Rolex product while everyone else is selling a Timex. Their collector's editions aren't all that special and it's only the scarcity that is creating this "value".

Originally Posted by bruceames

Selling out doesn't mean the title won't be back from other labels and many if not most of them are available in other markets as well. I would much rather have them offer 1500 copies at full price (although it wouldn't hurt to drop that full price by $5 or so), never have sales, then the alternative. Nothing at all. If they only have 1500 to sell, then they need to have a higher average selling price and that would mean few if any sales.

Well, c'mon, it kind of does. In a market where physical media is on the wane, do you think a label like Kino would want to release a blu-ray of a title that 3000 potential consumers already own? Like I said earlier, a few years ago I would have said that, yeah, the Twilight Time model is necessary because major studios are getting out of the game and there's very few indy labels filling the void. But now, several indy labels ARE filling the void and quite frankly doing a better job of it. At least Shout Factory is putting in some semblance of an effort when it comes to creating a valuable overall package.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

A way they could cut costs and maybe pass them along to the consumer:

*If the isolated scores cost some kind of licensing fee drop those.

*Drop the booklets. Add an extra feature to the discs that includes any set pictures that would've been used for the booklets.

*Drop the in house special features.

*Drop the number of units produced on titles that will struggle to sell out at 3,000.

I'd say they should do this if this shaves the price down by 5-10 bucks.

That would never happen. They are doing this because they are passionate about movies and part of that is doing the booklets, exclusive commentaries and isolated scores (actually they've been in the isolated score business long before they introduced TT). Anyway those expenses are fairly minor.

[baheidstu]

Anyway, switching from all this talk about business models, etc. I just got a shipping notification for the five titles I purchased in the sale.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Very few of their titles sold out quickly at full price. But once they started offering sales, titles such as Rains of Rachipur, Swamp Water, Bonjour Tristesse sold out all 3000 copies. Hence, my assertion that there is a market for releases such as those but only at the right price. People will buy those titles at $10-$15, just not $30.



Yeah, but they do. And they trumpet it quite loudly, playing on the fact that many people will panic buy if they think they're going to miss out. But more importantly, they play up the fact that if a title sells out, it's gone for good particularly as they have stated they will no longer offer encore editions. A Kino title may sell only 500 copies for all I know and that's fine. Nobody is the wiser. But some Kino titles may sell like hotcakes and if so, they print more copies and sell to meet that demand so that everyone who wants a copy can get one and without having to pay $30 for the privilege.

Hey, if Twilight Time feel that it's necessary to drop down to 1500 runs in order to sustain themselves, then that's fine. BUT, doing that AND playing up the whole "if it's sold out, it's gone for good" is NOT okay with me. There are too many other players on the scene proving that sort of business model is not necessary for them to keep feeding us that line.

I understand where you're coming from, and whether you agree with it or not, that's been their business model, and I think up till now they've had great success with it. But sometimes business models need tweaking, and it's high time for that. As Brad stated, they don't have the resources like Kino or Criterion has, and so a standard business model would probably not be a good fit. Only they would know that of course.

And I wouldn't be so negative on those who enjoy buying media with more of a collector's mentality than you do. The format needs all the support it can get and they are a large part of it still being as big as it is now, thus making many releases possible that otherwise would not be.

[baheidstu]

Originally Posted by bruceames

I understand where you're coming from, and whether you agree with it or not, that's been their business model, and I think up till now they've had great success with it. But sometimes business models need tweaking, and it's high time for that. As Brad stated, they don't have the resources like Kino or Criterion has, and so a standard business model would probably not be a good fit. Only they would know that of course.

Yes, their business model definitely needs tweaking, I just don't think that making less product available to consumers is the answer. Their titles seem to sell pretty decently at sale prices, I don't think it's their numbers that are the problem it's their pricing.

Originally Posted by bruceames

And I wouldn't be so negative on those who enjoy buying media with more of a collector's mentality than you do. The format needs all the support it can get and they are a large part of it still being as big as it is now, thus making many releases possible that otherwise would not be.

Fair enough point with regards to collectors, but I thought they had addressed that by making their re-releases a little different. They're already being undermined by the fact that you can get many of their sold-out titles from other places now so I would have thought it would be to their benefit to attract more customers by offering further production runs on their more popular titles.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

The new label, ClassicFlix, is also tapping into the MGM/UA library for their initial releases and so far I don't believe have indicated they will be limited editions, which makes TT's model look even more like an outmoded gimmick.

The thing is, we know that TT presses a limited number of discs only because they say so up front. As does Arrow (at least for some of their titles) and a few others, like Scorpion and Code Red. But we don't know what the press runs are for most of the other boutique labels. I wouldn't be surprised if they are also in the 3000-5000 range, and just don't make a point of that being the case. Of course, outfits like Kino and Shout and whoever can just go back to press more if their stocks are low, but if something like Kino's Witness for the Prosecution is still available now, 2½ years after release, how do we know if they've gone back to press (and if so, how many times) or are still selling stock from their initial press run?

On the other hand, I'm not sure if ClassicFlix have confirmed that their releases will be pressed-or have they?

I recall someone in the ClassicFlix thread mentioning that some at the company said that they would be pressed.

Whatever the consequences of their actions, I'll be sorry to see a player bite the dust, but the news has not dissuaded me in the least toward buying physical media and building a collection that allows me as much free choice and free will in how I spend my media leisure time.

Here, here.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by bruceames

That would never happen. They are doing this because they are passionate about movies and part of that is doing the booklets, exclusive commentaries and isolated scores (actually they've been in the isolated score business long before they introduced TT). Anyway those expenses are fairly minor.

How much would it save though..are we talking 2 bucks a disc maybe? If that's the case than I wouldn't want them to do away with that, but if its 5-10 bucks, honestly I think as a collector I'd much rather have them still be in business.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by baheidstu

I wouldn't be for it. Making things even more limited for people? They may struggle to sell 1500 of a certain title, but then again some of those 1500 releases may sell out quickly and if they stick by the limited edition, no re-releases thing then more people would lose out and then we'd be back to square one with the whole thing of people feeling obligated to buy right now for fear of losing out. What kind of way is that to engender good customer relations? Maybe we should let this company die and allow the other companies that don't stick by such a restrictive model step in and take over. Just because the studios themselves are not interested doesn't mean that companies like Shout or Kino aren't doing an awesome job of putting out great releases using the more traditional sales model.

I was late to the party when it came to Twilight Time, and I missed out on a few titles that I would've loved to have because of that. In a couple of cases -- Mysterious Island and Journey to the Center of the Earth -- I lucked out that TT decided to do encore editions. So, there's that.

But most of the sell-outs that I didn't manage to get in time are titles that, quite honestly, I'm OK with not having. In some cases, like The Blue Lagoon, I really did not want to own a copy. Right now, I'm not scrambling for a copy of 10 to Midnight because it's not a film I'm jonesing to have.

Currently, there are 70 OOP TT releases (sold-out encore editions counting as separate titles). Of those, there are 21 I don't have. Of those 21, there are only 3 that I would really like to have, and maybe another 5 that I wouldn't mine owning, but I'm OK with not having. TT getting more limited with their press runs probably wouldn't bother me overmuch.

[bruceames]

Wow didn't know there are so many sold-out titles.

[Page14]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Funny, when I think of Twilight Time, I think of classic American film of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I think of talent like Bogart, Sinatra, Nicholson, Allen, both Hepburns, Poitier, Stewart, Wayne and the list goes on. Say what you will, but Twilight Time puts out a higher percentage of movies I want than just about any other label, with the possible exception of WAC. I would miss them if they closed shop and I'm not confident that there would be another label to pick up the slack.

... and even Harryhausen.

[Reddington]

Blimey! Home from work to 4-5 pages on the future of TT.

Not going to comment on the "2020" scenario or speculate on how it might be avoided. I will say that I love physical media, collecting BDs, blind-buying, sales, bargains, and even paying full price - as I've just done with Our Man in Havana, which is worth every cent of $29.95 to me to own, watch, and enjoy as soon as it is released.

Just grateful that TT exist and I've been able to pick up many great titles over the past couple of years since becoming aware of them.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by belcherman

Funny, when I think of Twilight Time, I think of classic American film of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I think of talent like Bogart, Sinatra, Nicholson, Allen, both Hepburns, Poitier, Stewart, Wayne and the list goes on. Say what you will, but Twilight Time puts out a higher percentage of movies I want than just about any other label, with the possible exception of WAC. I would miss them if they closed shop and I'm not confident that there would be another label to pick up the slack.

When I think about Twilight Time, I think about movies that were shot in CinemaScope.

Anastasia
The Blue Max
Broken Lance
Desiree
Edge of Eternity
Fate is the Hunter
Flaming Star
Garden of Evil
Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison
House of Bamboo
Our Man Flint
In Like Flint
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Love is a Many-Splendored Thing
The Man from Laramie
Mr. Hobbs Takes a Vacation
Peyton Place
Picnic
The Rains of Ranchipur
The Roots of Heaven
The Sound and the Fury
Violent Saturday
The Wayward Bus
The Young Lions

...and those are just the ones in my collection.
I'm missing Beloved Infidel, Demetrius and the Gladiators, High Time, and a couple of others.

Twilight Time does not corner the market on CinemaScope films, of course, but they consistently rock out with wonderful Blu-ray transfers of these picturesque movies.

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Wow didn't know there are so many sold-out titles.

In my sig, there's a link to a list (and one that you've "thanked")

[kaseaver]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Wow didn't know there are so many sold-out titles.

Imo a real sellout is something that sells out in a short period of time at full price. I count 18 of these. The rest sell out price reduced during sales.