Unforgiven 4K UHD (1992)

[jh901]

Originally Posted by philochs

I think the UHD copy of Unforgiven is going to be better than the new 1080p version overall still. As people point out, flagship tvs and UHD players can probably be successfully calibrated to account for the UHD transfer being a bit darker than the new 1080p version, better than many projectors can account for anyway.

What panel display (or is it a projector?) do you have and has it been calibrated by a reputable pro?

[Poya]

Originally Posted by philochs

Well 20th Century Fox studios helped Samsung develop "HDR10 PLUS" of course, and so that's a pretty good sign they'll likely support that format as soon as they can author UHD disks with it, especially since it's free and would be a new base layer HDR format on an updated BDA spec.

While neither Fox, nor Paramount have announced any Dolby Vision titles yet, every other major Hollywood studio has now committed to releasing some Dolby Vision titles on disk, and I am confident both remaining studios will eventually announce some Dolby Vision disks. Even if they wait an extra year, they have theatrical Dolby Vision and also support on VUDU. I don't see them going through 2018 with zero support for DV on disk, could happen, but seems unlikely. Dolby Vision has successfully snowballed, and it's still going.

Technically, Disney also hasn't formally committed to Dolby Vision on disk yet, but that's because they haven't shared their plans for UHD publicly yet. Only high level Disney executives are likely to know when they'll release their first UHD disks. If James Gunn has anything to say about it though, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 will be the first Disney UHD disk Q3 2017 and it will have Dolby Vision. If that does happen, it would be my pick for the top tech story of 2017. Fingers are crossed.

I think as for as creative intent, he was just using that phrase to denote that extra tweaks content creators can do with the different formats. Not to say that we can't have creator's intent in a UHD or even a DVD, we can. I think he's talking about if the creator could give you his ideal 100% vision that wasn't at all limited by any technology, that would be the 'ideal creative intent' now, and how close can we get to that? He's saying it'll get us a bit closer to what they want, past HDR10 even.

Creative intent is different technically depending on the director, and seemingly what year it is. Part of James Cameron's intent currently is to almost always add teal tints to new color grades of his old films. Scenes that had grain, and no tints theatrically, suddenly have heavy teal tints and DNR to the max because they have since become popularized. So I feel like the lines of 'director's creative intent' are very blurred.

I like cases where they try to accurately grade the color to some type of theatrical standard for old catalog titles, rather than some revisionist color and HDR grade. Another example of odd cases of 'creative intent' are director's cut versions that take out the most violent scenes, something that Stallone does in some of his films. I will amass a huge collection of UHD and some disks will have static HDR10. I'm not saying I'll only buy disks if they came out in 2018 or later. Seems like both the UHD and 1080p remaster of Unforgiven are going to be awesome. I still focus a lot on the minutiae of PQ. I think a title of this pedigree warrants it. This isn't the UHD of "Camp Nowhere", it's a landmark, format defining, catalog release. I'm not disagreeing with you here.

Uh, Cameron's work has always been teal. You can't judge your Aliens DVD on how it should look.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

So the new Blu-ray version is better than the old disc and UHD?

According to one guy using a 100 nit projector. Let's wait and hear more.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Poya

Uh, Cameron's work has always been teal. You can't judge your Aliens DVD on how it should look.

lol, there's a whole lot of instances of extra added teal tints that were not part of the original theatrical color grades. Terminator 1 remastered was a bad offender, as was Aliens on Blu-ray. T2's 4K remaster has continued this trend, and it's a glaring issue in some scenes. The preview for the new T2 remaster shows a bit of the future war against the machines, the Resistance vs Skynet (Opening Battle of Movie). Used to be, on older bluray/dvd/vhs/laser disc releases, and theatrically, you could clearly make out the color of the skulls on the ground, including the one that gets crunched. They were bone/ivory colored, now on the trailer for the 4K remaster, that scene is a awash in a sea of teal tint, the skulls all look blueberry now. I compared it to the current Blu-ray copy of T2, and the color tint isn't there on that same scene in the old version, at least not to such a striking degree. Only the new color grading of the 4K remaster has that intense tint there, but whatever. I was only 8, but I saw T2 in the theater twice. Because I loved it so much after the first time I had to see it again. It was a big deal back then, it still is.

Back in the days of T2's initial release, the colors we saw depended on how they shot and then developed the film, if you wanted to add a teal tint it was an ordeal. They weren't in fashion at the time, and the tinting absolutely wasn't there at the time, check original theatrical trailers, no tints. Now that they naturally scan and manipulate old 35mm digitally, they can do whatever kind of revisionist tinting they want. Blue tint has been a big fad now for the last 15 or 20 years, and for some strange reason, James Cameron really likes it. He wasn't a big factor on the T2 remaster honestly. They did it, he looked at it at briefly, and gave his blessings. Technically, it was whoever did the color grading for this new scan, who decided when and where to add tints, and how intense. It's like colorizing a black&white film.

[StingingVelvet]

Didn't photos of the negatives show Aliens and Terminator had a lot more teal in them originally than people thought? That's what I remember. I don't know about T2, I've avoided that thread for lack of desire to debate this stuff for the 100th time.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Didn't photos of the negatives show Aliens and Terminator had a lot more teal in them originally than people thought? That's what I remember. I don't know about T2, I've avoided that thread for lack of desire to debate this stuff for the 100th time.

Yes and Torsten Kaiser (film restoration expert) has mentioned similarly on the forum several times.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Didn't photos of the negatives show Aliens and Terminator had a lot more teal in them originally than people thought? That's what I remember. I don't know about T2, I've avoided that thread for lack of desire to debate this stuff for the 100th time.

No, but certain scenes had naturally imbued teal tones, intentionally achieved on the film without any photo-chemical, or digital, processing. The theatrical look of the color is, to me, always superior in these cases. Did a little research and found that 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' was the first full feature DI, and also the first case of a 35mm film getting saddled with an unnecessary tint digitally. At least in that case the tint was on the original DVD, but after that, it became popular to add it to catalog films, that's when it's terrible, in my opinion. It's very comparable to colorizing b&w. Found a few screen caps that show original theatrical color grades next to Blu-ray copies...

[Trekkie313]

I believe the Aliens shot is a bit of an exaggeration.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

I believe the Aliens shot is a bit of an exaggeration.

Maybe you're right, but I have that Blu-Ray and the tinting is bad. Most of the film, skin tones have a pukish green to them, from the teal added digitally, and I found this too, but sorry it's from High Def Digest...

'In the past, Cameron often favored a “steely” blue color palette in his movies. ‘Aliens’ was one of his signature pictures in that regard. It was a very blue movie. But no longer. The color grading has now been completely revised so that, from the point that the Colonial Marines arrive on planet LV-426 forward, literally every single shot of the movie is teal. Every. Single. Shot. There’s of course a fair amount of orange thrown in for contrast, but there are few other colors beyond those anymore. The amount of teal in the movie is just off-the-charts absurd. Once you notice it, you can’t stop noticing it. I found it terribly distracting." - Josh Zyber

[brainofj72]

The Aliens BD is gorgeous. Whatever, dude.

[Trekkie313]

Took a look at the Aliens caps, it's very blue and steely. Flesh tones are a bit wonky at times, but otherwise its great.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by philochs

Found a few screen caps that show original theatrical color grades next to Blu-ray copies...

Where are those shots from? They don't look like the negative shots I've seen before.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

Took a look at the Aliens caps, it's very blue and steely. Flesh tones are a bit wonky at times, but otherwise its great.

Yes it's great PQ, but not just the flesh tones are wonky. Tints in the BD version dramatically change the whole look of the film. I actually watched the Blu-ray tonight. It's beautiful, but it's definitely revisionist on the color grade, which is jarring. Watch a scene from the blu-ray, and then compare it to the original theatrical trailer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW-7_HE98PY

Sure, the trailer has low-res PQ, but the color grading in that theatrical trailer is so pretty, and far more accurate to the original color grade than BD. Such a thing is of high importance to me personally.

The THX Special Widescreen Edition LaserDisc has the overall most accurate to 35mm color grade, while the Blu-ray uses tints to give it a modern look. If you prefer the modern teal tint look, you're all set. Some prefer as authentic to the theatrical grade as possible though, that's why there are people who make regrades of Blu-rays that have revisionist color grading choices. It's like Coca-Cola Classic vs New Coke. Pepsi vs Clear Pepsi.

There is a regrade for the Aliens Blu-ray that mostly used the LaserDisc as a color reference. The regrade is much better than the official BD, if authenticity in the color grade is what someone's after. Warez scene doesn't just correct catalog 35mm films to theatrical color schemes, they even regrade post-2000 films. I don't recommend for anyone to seek out such regraded copies of any films, as it's piracy, but if there's a gap that needs to be filled, they'll do it.

Here are some compressed screen caps of the original "Alien" Blu-Ray vs a fan-made remux/regrade that again, largely based it's color grading on the LaserDisc which was mostly accurate to the theatrical color scheme. People can see the real difference between steely blue, and modern style teal makeover. Difference between the aliens looking blacker vs bluer, ect...

http://s2.postimg.org/m6oo8gxq1/alien_comp.jpg

[LoSouL]

I'm gonna wait a bit, I think. Cancelled my pre-order before it ships. Been spoiled by lower prices on stuff recently (also burned after buying Expendables 2 & 3 only to see that Wal-Mart bundle right after opening my movies), and this one didn't budge like I hoped it would. Plus $31.31 is such an arbitrary price that it's probably having the opposite of a .99 consumer psychology effect on me.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Where are those shots from? They don't look like the negative shots I've seen before.

You're right sorry, I just didn't read far enough into this article to get to where he listed his 'more accurate to 35mm sources' whether they be older blu-rays or dvd or LaserDisc or what not. Was searching for some screen caps to illustrate my point about revisionist tinting, found this blog...

http://notonbluray.com/blog/orange-and-teal/

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by philochs

No, but certain scenes had naturally imbued teal tones, intentionally achieved on the film without any photo-chemical, or digital, processing. The theatrical look of the color is, to me, always superior in these cases. Did a little research and found that 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' was the first full feature DI, and also the first case of a 35mm film getting saddled with an unnecessary tint digitally. At least in that case the tint was on the original DVD, but after that, it became popular to add it to catalog films, that's when it's terrible, in my opinion. It's very comparable to colorizing b&w. Found a few screen caps that show original theatrical color grades next to Blu-ray copies...

I really dig the new look here. Especially in the ship that color timing is so awful and so 80s it makes me hurt inside. I have no idea why people like that. Terminator to me is fine both ways, but I really enjoy the new modern look they gave it. Mind you it is mostly sci-fi where I like this look, but I thought the transfers were beautiful on bluray.

Posing small caps is kind of not getting it right though. The films looks fantastic in motion.

The last one IDK. Have not seen the new presentation. Looks like a huge change.

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by HDvision

Both the T1 and Aliens Blu-ray have a blanket tint applied to the whole picture, so I'm guessing they are the result of bad compression and bad quality check. Cameron probably OKed the initial file, and Fox botched it at the compression stage.

Why I say that? Because the Aliens DCP doesn't have the green tint.

Also you can't judge how T2 3D will look based on the trailer. It was probably made and compressed by an unpaid trainee on a 10 years old mac using Mavericks and FCPX 1.0

Honestly, no one botched anything. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your idea that a bunch of amateurs are doing these famous films is nothing but pure fantasy.

I have no idea why people like the 80s red push. I think it looks positively hideous for sci-fi, and the directors seem to agree with me.

[Trekkie313]

Aliens really doesn't look the green ever. In fact the older home video color timing made things too warm and pink in the wrong places.

The only big instances of the "tint" being noticeable are when they are in the colony labs.

[Khronikos]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

Aliens really doesn't look the green ever. In fact the older home video color timing made things too warm and pink in the wrong places.

The only big instances of the "tint" being noticeable are when they are in the colony labs.

Indeed, and it kind of gives the film a sickly look, which fits fine with the mood of the film. Even if you don't like some of these scenes, to me the new color timing makes 75% of the film better. It just immerses me more into a futuristic society, where before the 80s red push just made me think 80s film. That is just how I fell.

I really also enjoy Blade Runner TFC's timing as that film also had an 80s push to it that dated it so easily.

[Khronikos]

I'm not worried at all here. The SOUND upgrade was by far the most important upgrade to me. It sucked on the normal Bluray.