Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Rory]

Originally Posted by dragon53

I'm disappointed that the Blu-ray THE HOSPITAL doesn't have any decent special features such as a commentary.

I'm disappointed by every TT Blu-ray that doesn't have a commentary track.

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

I liked the technique of the actors visibly speaking Russian, but then dubbing their own voices in English, as an interesting approach to avoid loading the movie with subtitles.

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I was not a fan of that technique myself. The first time I watched the film I thought there was something wrong with the audio on the disc before I realized what they were doing.

I thought a nicer implementation was in Hunt for Red October where they start speaking Russian (with - ha! - subs), and then you have some kind of a dissolve(?) and then you hear them talking English. It made for a smooth transition and eliminated the need for extensive subtitles.

[thatguamguy]

The technique feels like a precursor to "Red October"'s method, for sure. I think it's an interesting solution to the "universal translator" problem -- on "Star Trek", the problem isn't that the aliens speak English, the problem is that their mouths are moving to match English even though they're speaking their own language. (You could say the same about "Red October".) Obviously just dubbing in the English with mismatched mouth movements would look bad and be hard to watch, but the idea of having the language underneath but then dubbed by the same actors, it's just a cool novel approach (though I agree it's not entirely successful, and I believe you that it's not consistently done).

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I thought a nicer implementation was in Hunt for Red October where they start speaking Russian (with - ha! - subs), and then you have some kind of a dissolve(?) and then you hear them talking English. It made for a smooth transition and eliminated the need for extensive subtitles.

Same deal with Judgment at Nuremberg.

There's another movie on the tip of my tongue that utilizes the same method. I don't have a problem with it.

[koberulz]

Valkyrie?

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I thought a nicer implementation was in Hunt for Red October where they start speaking Russian (with - ha! - subs), and then you have some kind of a dissolve(?) and then you hear them talking English. It made for a smooth transition and eliminated the need for extensive subtitles.

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

The technique feels like a precursor to "Red October"'s method, for sure. I think it's an interesting solution to the "universal translator" problem -- on "Star Trek", the problem isn't that the aliens speak English, the problem is that their mouths are moving to match English even though they're speaking their own language. (You could say the same about "Red October".) Obviously just dubbing in the English with mismatched mouth movements would look bad and be hard to watch, but the idea of having the language underneath but then dubbed by the same actors, it's just a cool novel approach (though I agree it's not entirely successful, and I believe you that it's not consistently done).

It's interesting how different movies approach the issue of languages.

I like that Hunt for Red October method. Have a few scenes where they establish the characters are speaking in Russian, then move on for the sake of expediency.

There's always the tried and true method of actors who are supposed to be speaking in Russian just speaking English with a vaguely Russian accent, and so forth.

Then there are films like Where Eagles Dare who just don't give a damn. I'm thinking of the scene were Eastwood and Burton, pretending to be German soldiers, are conversing in English in their usual accents as they walk past German sentries but in the movie they're supposed to be speaking German.

[thatguamguy]

They all have their pluses and minuses. The "Red October" method (and the "Kremlin Letter" method too) both call attention to themselves in a way that some directors seem to try to avoid.

It's hard to explain this part, but I think that if a movie is going to represent a character speaking a foreign language, but still have the actual actors playing it in English... in that case, the movie is basically translating it for the audience, and it feels weird to me if the characters are accented. I'm thinking specifically of "Paths of Glory" -- to me, it feels right that a group of American actors performing in English shouldn't have French accents there, even though they are playing French characters.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by thatguamguy

They all have their pluses and minuses. The "Red October" method (and the "Kremlin Letter" method too) both call attention to themselves in a way that some directors seem to try to avoid.

It's hard to explain this part, but I think that if a movie is going to represent a character speaking a foreign language, but still have the actual actors playing it in English... in that case, the movie is basically translating it for the audience, and it feels weird to me if the characters are accented. I'm thinking specifically of "Paths of Glory" -- to me, it feels right that a group of American actors performing in English shouldn't have French accents there, even though they are playing French characters.

Something like Paths of Glory, I agree with you. It's a serious movie and all the characters would be speaking French IRL. But movies that are supposed to be a bit more fun, and my mind keeps going to all those World War 2 adventure movies of the 60s, accents are a good way to differentiate who is speaking actual English, and who is speaking "German".

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

Something like Paths of Glory, I agree with you. It's a serious movie and all the characters would be speaking French IRL. But movies that are supposed to be a bit more fun, and my mind keeps going to all those World War 2 adventure movies of the 60s, accents are a good way to differentiate who is speaking actual English, and who is speaking "German".

I can't think of too many movies in that vein that make earnest attempts at German accents. Most of them cast an English actor, like the foreign accent alone is supposed to properly convey German Case in point, James Mason in The Desert Fox/The Desert Rats and Paul Scofield in The Train. Doesn't really bother me but it's an amusing way of thinking nonetheless.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

But movies that are supposed to be a bit more fun, and my mind keeps going to all those World War 2 adventure movies of the 60s, accents are a good way to differentiate who is speaking actual English, and who is speaking "German".

I can't think of a specific example off-hand, but I think I agree anyway.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

I can't think of too many movies in that vein that make earnest attempts at German accents. Most of them cast an English actor, like the foreign accent alone is supposed to properly convey German Case in point, James Mason in The Desert Fox/The Desert Rats and Paul Scofield in The Train. Doesn't really bother me but it's an amusing way of thinking nonetheless.

I was thinking about that too. There was also a stock group of actors from German backgrounds like Hardy Kruger, Karl Otto Alberty, Wolfgang Preiss, Wolf Kahler et. al. who always seemed to appear in those films.

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

I was thinking about that too. There was also a stock group of actors from German backgrounds like Hardy Kruger, Karl Otto Alberty, Wolfgang Preiss, Wolf Kahler et. al. who always seemed to appear in those films.

Can't forget Curd Jürgens...The Enemy Below, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain, etc.

[thatguamguy]

I feel like Max von Sydow is an honorary member of that troupe.

[lemonski]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

I can't think of too many movies in that vein that make earnest attempts at German accents. Most of them cast an English actor, like the foreign accent alone is supposed to properly convey German Case in point, James Mason in The Desert Fox/The Desert Rats and Paul Scofield in The Train. Doesn't really bother me but it's an amusing way of thinking nonetheless.

It’s extra amusing to me if the English actor has a very plummy accent - like casting Terry-Thomas as a Nazi and have him speak English. George Sanders you’d think would make a terrible choice for playing a German, but in Fritz Lang’s Man Hunt he speaks perfect German

[bdgking]

when the win blows is now sold out .

Inherit the wind & heaven & earth are almost gone

[SeanJoyce]

Originally Posted by lemonski

It’s extra amusing to me if the English actor has a very plummy accent - like casting Terry-Thomas as a Nazi and have him speak English. George Sanders you’d think would make a terrible choice for playing a German, but in Fritz Lang’s Man Hunt he speaks perfect German

And I guess since it's TT-related, you had a bunch of English actors playing high-ranking Nazis in The Night of the Generals. Ditto Conspiracy. Again, I have no personal problem with this, as it tends to work out well. It's just that the prevailing mindset seems to be that a regal actor with an English accent can more adequately portray a German character (especially where American audiences are concerned.)

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by SeanJoyce

And I guess since it's TT-related, you had a bunch of English actors playing high-ranking Nazis in The Night of the Generals. Ditto Conspiracy. Again, I have no personal problem with this, as it tends to work out well. It's just that the prevailing mindset seems to be that a regal actor with an English accent can more adequately portray a German character (especially where American audiences are concerned.)

And, of course, Alan Rickman and Jeremy Irons in the Die Hard films. They don't speak with anything remotely close to a German accent yet we accept them as evil, nasty German terrorists.

[lemonski]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

And, of course, Alan Rickman and Jeremy Irons in the Die Hard films. They don't speak with anything remotely close to a German accent yet we accept them as evil, nasty German terrorists.

I think we accept that because nowadays its common in some European countries for people to have English as a second language, and it would be spoken with an accent - so an English speaker doing an accent works. But I don't buy it in a WWII setting because (only assuming) that English as a second language was not as common as today

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by lemonski

I think we accept that because nowadays its common in some European countries for people to have English as a second language, and it would be spoken with an accent - so an English speaker doing an accent works. But I don't buy it in a WWII setting because (only assuming) that English as a second language was not as common as today

Yeah, good point. A lot of Europeans speak better English these days than many people who have it as a first language.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by lemonski

George Sanders you’d think would make a terrible choice for playing a German, but in Fritz Lang’s Man Hunt he speaks perfect German

Not that surprising considering he was born and raised in pre-revolutionary Russia and his mother was a Russian of German extraction.

A surprising number of quintessential English gentleman actors came from east European or Germanic families: Leslie Howard's mother was a Hungarian of German extraction while Robert Morley's mother was German yet it's hard to imagine either being remotely convincing as Germans (though Morley did play one for laughs in the wartime propaganda comedy The Big Blockade).