Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Indy64]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It won’t matter. Stores are dying anyway. Like I said, online online online. Discs are pretty much a crutch for home entertainment and will continue to be for some time.

True that they are a dying breed as well, but if Joe Sixpack (who pretty much controls the industry many here love) can't walk into a local WalMart or Best Buy or Target and rifle through the stacks and stacks of $5/7/10 movie bins to get their fav movies, odds are they won't actively seek them out online. Nobody wants to pay tax and freight for a $5 movie.

These same folks will just start firing up their Roku TV's and spin things on Hulu/Netflix/similar services to get their fix.

[veritas]

Sigh another problem with digital I own a few things on microsoft but they disabled playback so I cant play the movies from my windows 7 pc now. Theirs basically now no way for me to play microsoft videos. I dont see how this could not possibly become a problem for other venders eventually where they give you the ultimatum of losing your collection or upgrading your tv, computer or mobile device.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by veritas

Sigh another problem with digital I own a few things on microsoft but they disabled playback so I cant play the movies from my windows 7 pc now. Theirs basically now no way for me to play microsoft videos. I dont see how this could not possibly become a problem for other venders eventually where they give you the ultimatum of losing your collection or upgrading your tv, computer or mobile device.

No offense but that's what will happen when people buy stuff from reputable companies who don't have a reputation with films and TV shows. Microsoft, PlayStation Store, Comcast or Sky Store in the UK don't give a damn about your purchased movies and TV shows. They only sell them because others do and they want to milk customers in their ecosystem.

Now that MA has launched in the US, I'd recommend people only buy from the big 4, VUDU, iTunes, Amazon and Google.

Someone was right a few pages back, digital HD is still in a format war phase, bet on the wrong horse and you risk losing your collection.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The point you are missing is Netflix and Amazon are looking to distribute films directly to the consumer. When did cable do that mainstream wise? Look at the latest Cloverfield for proof.

Of course premium channels are distributing their own brand. Where do you think the streaming services like Amazon and Netflix based their business plan on? My point is, people keep saying that you don't actually own the your digital movies (you do), but don't seem to have the same issue when watching movies on cable

[Dustin44]

Originally Posted by veritas

Movies anywhere mitigates your risk somewhat but if you choose cinema now, barnes and noble, target ticket, you name it then you were forced to move to a different provider.

Target Ticket was very late to the game, and it was pretty bad. I remember I tried it a couple of times because I had a couple of free rental codes. I couldn't even watch a movie in SD on Target Ticket without it having to buffer a couple of times. (I could watch movies fine in Vudu on HDX)

CinemaNow wasn't very good either. It was hard to find which movies you owned and it didn't have a lot of the movies I had on Vudu.

So I just stuck with Vudu.

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

Now that MA has launched in the US, I'd recommend people only buy from the big 4, VUDU, iTunes, Amazon and Google.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Indy64

I bet we see a similar article within the next 5 years but it will be referring to DVD/Blu/4K discs.

I wouldn't be surprised. Or all stores will have will be a very small section with the newest releases.

I remember how huge the movie section at Best Buy used to be in 2009/2010. Now, it is tiny. And it sucks because I enjoy browsing the movie section and picking up the occasion title.

Originally Posted by Indy64

True that they are a dying breed as well, but if Joe Sixpack (who pretty much controls the industry many here love) can't walk into a local WalMart or Best Buy or Target and rifle through the stacks and stacks of $5/7/10 movie bins to get their fav movies, odds are they won't actively seek them out online. Nobody wants to pay tax and freight for a $5 movie.

These same folks will just start firing up their Roku TV's and spin things on Hulu/Netflix/similar services to get their fix.

Exactly. The average person isn't going to go online and order a disc. They will just stream it.

[Texan26]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Just because you have packed away your DVD’s doesn’t mean others have. Seriously, I can still play VHS and look how long they have been around? You can pick one up on EBay and I don’t see any reason why that would change. DVD will be playable for decades absolutely. So will Blu-ray.

You keep preaching about quality, so why would you want to watch DVDs and blu-rays decades from now?

[meremortal]

Enough of my hd dvds went bad that I didn't wish to keep them around any longer. Thankfully the overwhelming majority have been released on blu since those early days and often with a lossless audio upgrade. LD is a different story where the discs at least play but the picture is non-anamorphic and many discs may be excessively soft and/or suffer from dot crawl or white specs, etc. It could also be that my players are simply old and worn. And vhs is one of those things that is nostalgic from growing up in the video store era but I'd rather not collect them.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

You do realise it will be more of a hassle for them to print all the DVD and blu-ray copies of an unprofitable movie and then they'll have stock rotting in a warehouse somewhere. At least with digital they don't have that same sunk investment. I think physical releases will be the first to go, not digital, especially if a studio thinks they have a real turkey on their hands they'll likely skip a physical release altogether.

You are missing the point, though.

If a physical disc goes out of print, you still have your copy. And you can buy second hand copies through ebay, resale stores, etc. if you missed out on it or your previous copy gets damaged. In other words, even if the studio stops supporting the title, they have no control over the the copies previously distributed.

With digital distribution, if sales gradually slow down over time as more people build a digital "collection" and get to a point where they have most of their available favorites, resulting in their purchases slowing down, there will still be an ongoing cost to continue hosting those files on servers to allow them to be streamed or redownloaded as necessary.

If things get to a point where they aren't getting enough income to justify the cost of continued support of all of those files, they could potentially opt to remove the less popular ones from their servers, rendering any such title inaccessible to those who already paid for it.

Even if you have it downloaded, unlike many music files that are DRM free, movie files tend to be more locked down, so there could be issues watching them in the future if a service changes, goes under, or whatever.

Or if the studio decides it's not popular enough or they just don't want it out there for one reason or another, they could pull it. Or suppose it's still available, but a decade from now something that isn't a big deal now becomes controversial in the future, and they edit something out of the movie to accommodate that. The next time you stream it, it's the altered version. Suppose a studio or filmmaker wants to pull a "George Lucas" by only making an updated/altered version of a movie available and not the original version. Rather than being able to hold onto your own physical copy, even if it was the original version when it was "purchased" digitally, the next time it is streamed, it may not be that same version.


A case where something kind of along those lines actually happened was around the time Disney's The Sword in the Stone came out on Blu-Ray. They "remastered" it, which involved A LOT of really bad DNR (look up the review here on this site). The movie had already been available for some time through iTunes, but was released using an older master that was used for the previous DVD that, while not perfect, didn't have the issues that the DNR introduced. But somewhere around the time of that Blu-Ray release, the iTunes file was updated to the badly DNRed version. Presumably anyone who had the older file downloaded could still watch it, but if they ever need to redownload it, they will end up with the lesser version.

By contrast, while watching a standard def DVD may not be the optimal way to experience a movie, at least anyone who owns it still has that mastering as-is, and it's not going to be covertly replaced with a different version.

There are a plethora of potential issues with this.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Texan26

You keep preaching about quality, so why would you want to watch DVDs and blu-rays decades from now?

Well, for one thing, to be able to watch content that perhaps never made it to a later format and those older formats are the only way to watch them. While quality is an important factor, it's kind of a moot point if the alternative is not having access to a given title that you enjoy at all.

Also the law of diminishing returns is very much a real thing. Even if there is a format later on, available only digitally, that manages to surpass the quality of 4K Blu-Ray discs, I do question how much better that could possibly be. Time may prove me wrong on this, though I doubt it. While the manufacturers of TVs and such want to get as many repeat sales as possible, at some point available PQ and AQ will plateau, and there won't really be a way for people to get noticeably better picture quality without going to a substantially bigger screen, the size of which most people likely wouldn't have the space for.

[Texan26]

I still have a few laserdiscs because they're not available in digital but I've had no desire to watch them in that format. They include the Director's Cut of Scream and the non Special Editions of the Star Wars Trilogy. Instead, I watch the theatrical version of Scream and the special editions of Star Wars on digital.

[Wasgo]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

With digital distribution, if sales gradually slow down over time as more people build a digital "collection" and get to a point where they have most of their available favorites, resulting in their purchases slowing down, there will still be an ongoing cost to continue hosting those files on servers to allow them to be streamed or redownloaded as necessary.

At current hosting prices, it would cost a studio $2.40 to host a movie for a year. They'll make more than that with a single sale. And that's consumer pricing.

I cannot envision a scenario where a studio thinks it's worth pissing off consumers to save $2 per years. Especially when all it would take is for one new buyer to cover the cost.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Texan26

You keep preaching about quality, so why would you want to watch DVDs and blu-rays decades from now?

In the event that we can’t keep our movies (own our movies). Hopefully we will have much better but I wouldn’t bank on it. You guys forget, we don’t have Movies Anywhere, we aren’t protected even if we WANTED to go that route.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

No offense but that's what will happen when people buy stuff from reputable companies who don't have a reputation with films and TV shows. Microsoft, PlayStation Store, Comcast or Sky Store in the UK don't give a damn about your purchased movies and TV shows. They only sell them because others do and they want to milk customers in their ecosystem.

Now that MA has launched in the US, I'd recommend people only buy from the big 4, VUDU, iTunes, Amazon and Google.

Someone was right a few pages back, digital HD is still in a format war phase, bet on the wrong horse and you risk losing your collection.

I think you are underestimating Sky. They have been a dominant force in the UK for decades and have carried movies all that time. Disney could potentially own them if the takeover happens, trust me they are going nowhere. Also their movie store offerings include a Blu-ray or DVD with every purchase.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

You are missing the point, though.

If a physical disc goes out of print, you still have your copy. And you can buy second hand copies through ebay, resale stores, etc. if you missed out on it or your previous copy gets damaged. In other words, even if the studio stops supporting the title, they have no control over the the copies previously distributed.

With digital distribution, if sales gradually slow down over time as more people build a digital "collection" and get to a point where they have most of their available favorites, resulting in their purchases slowing down, there will still be an ongoing cost to continue hosting those files on servers to allow them to be streamed or redownloaded as necessary.

If things get to a point where they aren't getting enough income to justify the cost of continued support of all of those files, they could potentially opt to remove the less popular ones from their servers, rendering any such title inaccessible to those who already paid for it.

Even if you have it downloaded, unlike many music files that are DRM free, movie files tend to be more locked down, so there could be issues watching them in the future if a service changes, goes under, or whatever.

Or if the studio decides it's not popular enough or they just don't want it out there for one reason or another, they could pull it. Or suppose it's still available, but a decade from now something that isn't a big deal now becomes controversial in the future, and they edit something out of the movie to accommodate that. The next time you stream it, it's the altered version. Suppose a studio or filmmaker wants to pull a "George Lucas" by only making an updated/altered version of a movie available and not the original version. Rather than being able to hold onto your own physical copy, even if it was the original version when it was "purchased" digitally, the next time it is streamed, it may not be that same version.


A case where something kind of along those lines actually happened was around the time Disney's The Sword in the Stone came out on Blu-Ray. They "remastered" it, which involved A LOT of really bad DNR (look up the review here on this site). The movie had already been available for some time through iTunes, but was released using an older master that was used for the previous DVD that, while not perfect, didn't have the issues that the DNR introduced. But somewhere around the time of that Blu-Ray release, the iTunes file was updated to the badly DNRed version. Presumably anyone who had the older file downloaded could still watch it, but if they ever need to redownload it, they will end up with the lesser version.

By contrast, while watching a standard def DVD may not be the optimal way to experience a movie, at least anyone who owns it still has that mastering as-is, and it's not going to be covertly replaced with a different version.

There are a plethora of potential issues with this.

I agree with all your points, I hate censorship myself and would hate it if a movie was edited in the future, but these things are all hypothetical, and it's not like physical media is safe either. Clownhouse being a famous example, sure there were some who managed to grab a copy of the DVD before it was pulled from shelves, but buying that movie on the second hand market is going to cost a lot of money, so bootlegs and torrents may be the only way to watch that title unless you track down a VHS copy with sketchy quality.

If something is edited for whatever reason, couldn't one then track down a physical alternative for that one title? It's not like every title in one's digital collection will be edited.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I think you are underestimating Sky. They have been a dominant force in the UK for decades and have carried movies all that time. Disney could potentially own them if the takeover happens, trust me they are going nowhere. Also their movie store offerings include a Blu-ray or DVD with every purchase.

Yes they'll be around for a long time but I also would not trust a digital provider who also supplies broadband, that potential conflict of interest may prove bad, like get Sky Broadband to enjoy your purchased movies in the best quality etc

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I still have all of those formats (179 laserdiscs, 126 tapes, 5 HD-DVDs) and I occasionally will watch one of my vhs tapes or, more likely, one of my laserdiscs. I have backed up my laserdiscs to dvd +r discs as well. My Pioneer DVL-909 laserdisc player is still fully operational as is my JVC S5902U S-VHS recorder. My first edition Xbox 360 has the sidecar HD-DVD drive and is in working order as well.

And I view DVDs regularly; a LOT of content is only available on DVD. Of course, this is just my behavior, but I retain all of my videos and I use them, only replacing something when I come across a better edition.

You realize you're a couple of standard deviations away from the norm, right?

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Just because you have packed away your DVD’s doesn’t mean others have. Seriously, I can still play VHS and look how long they have been around? You can pick one up on EBay and I don’t see any reason why that would change. DVD will be playable for decades absolutely. So will Blu-ray.

You can also play 78s. It's completely irrelevant to people's lives in the same way VHS and LaserDisc are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you're in the 2.5% who might still own it or even use it (probably 0.1%). The answer for most, including collectors, is that they moved on and discarded the old. I'm not cutting edge but I am ahead of the curve and my current choices will be closer to the norm every year that passes.

[Zu Nim]

Another 50 million homes in the U.S. should have access to gigabit internet by the end of the year. (Not people - homes.) No data caps, of course.

Charter/Spectrum: We’ll Offer Gigabit Speed Nationwide by the End of 2018

Looking forward to the next set of comically pessimistic posts about the future of digital.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

You realize you're a couple of standard deviations away from the norm, right?

Did you just call me a deviant?

I never wanted to be normal, anyways. So ordinary and dull. Abnormality is so much more fun!

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

If you think you're going to be watching your Blu-rays for decades to come let me try to disabuse you of that notion.

My prerecorded VHS tapes are gone. My LaserDiscs are gone. My DVDs have been boxed up for years and will probably be gone soon too. My HD-DVDs? Same. That covers less than three decades and I don't use any of them anymore, not one. Things change. In a couple of decades you'll be looking at your Blu-rays and shrugging noncommittally - if you kept them that long.

The world is a very dynamic place. In 5+ years I might have access to movies as a monthly subscription the way I have access to a broad array of music. I don't need forever. Hardly anyone does. I need just long enough.

vhs and cassette both wore out from use for me so I never viewed them as anything more then a limited number of viewings rental. Dvd was the media everybody looked at as this will last a lifetime and for the most part that held true considering how hard it was to get people to move to blu ray (I bet dvds (and perhaps even vhs (albeit rarely)) show up in estate sales even 50 to 70 years from now).

Also their was never anything that forced you to upgrade from vhs to dvd etc you could skip a format and use the old format in your own little bubble for years (decades) (they only stopped making vhs players a few years ago). If I decide to upgrade I would like it to be my choice not a company or studios choice who has a direct incentive for me to re-buy my collection.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by veritas

vhs and cassette both wore out from use for me so I never viewed them as anything more then a limited number of viewings rental. Dvd was the media everybody looked at as this will last a lifetime and for the most part that held true considering how hard it was to get people to move to blu ray (I bet dvds (and perhaps even vhs (albeit rarely)) show up in estate sales even 50 to 70 years from now).

Also their was never anything that forced you to upgrade from vhs to dvd etc you could skip a format and use the old format in your own little bubble for years (decades) (they only stopped making vhs players a few years ago). If I decide to upgrade I would like it to be my choice not a company or studios choice who has a direct incentive for me to re-buy my collection.

It's hard to get rid of DVDs now. No one is going to give a shit in 50-70 years.