Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[Alfred E. Neumann]

A new encoded Blu-ray of the "Blade Runner" Final Cut would have been great.
Compared to the UHD the VC-1 disc looks like a smooth DNR'd mess.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I watched the UHD BD of SPR the other night and caught a few instances of this. I also thought the disc looked good, but moments like this made the image a bit more digital looking for sure.

A few shots like this caught my eye too. http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=...4&l=0&i=2&go=1

Man, I gotta stop looking at them SPR caps as I keep seeing that colour blocking again and again and again, in some shots it's downright rampant. What's super odd is that the colour is kind of 'leaking' outside of the luminance channel, skin tones especially, as the colour from people's hands and faces is bleeding over onto the background (the pink of his forehead is literally spilling over onto his hair: http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=...&l=0&i=12&go=1). UHD has higher chroma resolution than BD but you wouldn't know it from those comparisons. Me no likey, and whatever's in the encoders that's causing this they've got to put a stop to it, now.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Man, I gotta stop looking at them SPR caps as I keep seeing that colour blocking again and again and again, in some shots it's downright rampant. What's super odd is that the colour is kind of 'leaking' outside of the luminance channel, skin tones especially, as the colour from people's hands and faces is bleeding over onto the background (the pink of his forehead is literally spilling over onto his hair: http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=...&l=0&i=12&go=1). UHD has higher chroma resolution than BD but you wouldn't know it from those comparisons. Me no likey, and whatever's in the encoders that's causing this they've got to put a stop to it, now.

The thing is that I recall some bleeding of colors theatrically.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Man, I gotta stop looking at them SPR caps as I keep seeing that colour blocking again and again and again, in some shots it's downright rampant. What's super odd is that the colour is kind of 'leaking' outside of the luminance channel, skin tones especially, as the colour from people's hands and faces is bleeding over onto the background (the pink of his forehead is literally spilling over onto his hair: http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=2&x=...&l=0&i=12&go=1). UHD has higher chroma resolution than BD but you wouldn't know it from those comparisons. Me no likey, and whatever's in the encoders that's causing this they've got to put a stop to it, now.

It's the only thing about the UHD that I don't like. But I didn't think it was as bad as it was in the 'Blade Runner' disc.

What helps SPR is the increase in resolution, spatial detail, and obviously, the HDR--which for me, is so damn good, it's become my personal favorite disc of the 152-discs that I currently own.

[Pyoko]

These no bueno color blocking artifacts are one of the biggest unintentional flaws of UHDs and I can only hope we'll be rid of them soon. It's as if 95% of the bits have gone into compressing the luma channel leaving the chroma channels ripped to shreds (or at least the Cr one).

Here's one of the previous BR shots for example. First the luma channel, almost immaculate:


Then here's what the red-green chroma component channel (Cr) looks like, not so pretty anymore:

[captainjoe]

Holy hell well there you go. That's pretty awful

[whitestang06]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Me no likey, and whatever's in the encoders that's causing this they've got to put a stop to it, now.

They seem to be greatly overestimating HEVC's encoding efficiency.

[juanbauty@yahoo.es]

andreasy969, thanks so much for the comparisons of The Post and Blade Runner. they are simply STUNNING (specially the last one).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by whitestang06

They seem to be greatly overestimating HEVC's encoding efficiency.

But stuff didn't start out like this on UHD, you know? And not all titles are like this now, it seems to be certain encoders used by certain authoring houses. We had more conventional blocking artefacts for sure, stuff that shows up in the luminance channel as well but this, this ruination of the chroma channel specifically is downright bizarre and AFAIK it first turned up on Blade Runner which would possibly indicate some sort of new encoder or new encoding settings being used, and I've spotted these green/magenta blocking artefacts on several titles since then. Not as bad as BR, as I've said already (just look at that chroma channel in the close-up of Deck that Pyoko posted and the other caps are just as bad, it's always nice to know you're not insane when you see things most other people don't), but blocky enough to still catch my eye every now and then.

Sure, the chroma channels will be lower resolution by default because this is 4:2:0 encoded video we're talking about here, the chroma is literally running at a quarter resolution of the luminance because our eyes are quite forgiving about such things. So even if you look at the chroma channels of a masterful Sony UHD disc like Leon the chroma still looks very blocky and low res, that's because it is...but the chroma on Blade Runner is MONUMENTALLY bad and SPR, although not as rough, certainly has its moments too.

I really am no expert on this so I don't have a clue as to what actual parameters or settings in HEVC would cause such a thing, but perhaps someone came up with a bitrate 'cheat' to keep luminance perfectly preserved but which badly hacks up the chroma channels even more, figuring that the awful chroma blocking would be mistaken for grain anyway? Whatever the case may be, it's extremely disconcerting.

[andreasy969]

EDIT: obsolete - all BD caps have been fixed

A note reg. Knowing, The Post and Blade Runner ...

When doing the caps for "Bourne Legacy" (will upload today or tomorrow) I noticed that the upscaled BD caps did not really show what I saw before with the BD (caps). The upscaled BD caps looked too soft to me - some very minor, others more so. So I checked back and found the culprit: The upscaling of the latest gimp version appears to be somehow softening the image (I used the exact the same settings - simple cubic with nothing else). I switched back to a previous version and it was fine again.

Long story short: The upscaled BD caps of "Knowing", "The Post" and "Blade Runner" may be too soft! Having said that: With all of those, the end result still remains the same. But the BD might be better than the (stupid) upscaling made them look.

I'm sorry for that and I really don't have the time to do them again, but I had to mention it now that I noticed it.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by sentinel-fine

Cubic filtering? Wouldn't nearest neighbor be closest to the source?

Yes, but you're in pixel heaven then - unwatchable and unusable for comparison purposes.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by sentinel-fine

May I ask a single shot comparison in your next batch with nearest neighbor (possibly applied on the UHD disc too)? Thanks.

I already did. But only one upscaled BD cap to show you.

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I really am no expert on this so I don't have a clue as to what actual parameters or settings in HEVC would cause such a thing, but perhaps someone came up with a bitrate 'cheat' to keep luminance perfectly preserved but which badly hacks up the chroma channels even more, figuring that the awful chroma blocking would be mistaken for grain anyway? Whatever the case may be, it's extremely disconcerting.

I'm not an expert either (paging DavidM?) but I expect there is some setting on how to divvy up the bitrate between the channels, or some limit on how much the luma channel is allowed to "steal" from the chroma if it's detected that it needs more to achieve a certain level of transparency, and you always need more on super-grainy, hard-to-compress material like BR or SPR.

Obviously this possible limit would have been set way too high in these cases leaving nothing but scraps for the chroma, and while a perfect luma is nice and all, with compression being susceptible to diminishing returns the bits would definitely be better served in the chroma, and I don't even think it would take all that much to get it up to unnoticeable levels.

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Yes, but you're in pixel heaven than - unwatchable and unusable for comparison purposes.

Yep, it's certainly the most pure representation of what's on the disc but your brain will kind of have to do the filtering instead then, trying to pick out and judge the detail from behind the sharp edges and blocks. Also it's not a very realistic way of comparing things because there's little hardware or software that upscales video in that manner anyway.

[Geoff D]

I sent a PM to 2themax and cc'd it to David, it's just a matter of them heeding the Geoffy Signal as they're busy people.

[andreasy969]

The Bourne Legacy

I bought this one, because I didn't own the BD yet, but I don't own the first three. I'd like to see them myself though, so if anyone could provide caps that would be great. I do own (and might do) Jason though.

I do get the same somewhat "muted" colors (especially with the red jacket) with my Panasonic as well, so I guess madVR isn't that far from the truth here (?).

Other than that, next on my list is most likely "Gatsby" or "Fantastic Beats" now - unless someone else is interested in sth else first.

@sentinel-fine
The 3rd one with #2 should be nearest neighbor via gimp. Watch in full size and you will see what I meant.


UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits) left, BD (upscaled) right

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim:

[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the color bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colors (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark, may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=589

[UpsetSmiley]

You're doing fantastic work andreasy, will you be getting Braveheart 4K? Would love to see how it shapes up alongside the BD.

[Geoff D]

Never liked the colour on the Legacy UHD, far too dour and dull: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post13193240. Yes, the BD has the typical greeny tint but the UHD changes it for a ****ing lilac tint instead, people's lips change colour from pink to purple and the way it kills the reds....ugh.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by UpsetSmiley

You're doing fantastic work andreasy, will you be getting Braveheart 4K? Would love to see how it shapes up alongside the BD.

Thx, but I actually slightly effed up the previous 3 (which bugs the hell out of me). Would've been crucial with Bourne and I actually only noticed because the difference is so small with Bourne that a minor difference/mistake became a big one here ...

Yes, I do have Braveheart pre-ordered. Should have it in two weeks or so I guess, but lately others tend to be faster than me anyway (which I actually like).

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Never liked the colour on the Legacy UHD, far too dour and dull: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post13193240. Yes, the BD has the typical greeny tint but the UHD changes it for a ****ing lilac tint instead, people's lips change colour from pink to purple and the way it kills the reds....ugh.

I also prefer the BD with Legacy, but I prefer to just post the caps without my opinion by now.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But stuff didn't start out like this on UHD, you know? And not all titles are like this now, it seems to be certain encoders used by certain authoring houses. We had more conventional blocking artefacts for sure, stuff that shows up in the luminance channel as well but this, this ruination of the chroma channel specifically is downright bizarre and AFAIK it first turned up on Blade Runner which would possibly indicate some sort of new encoder or new encoding settings being used, and I've spotted these green/magenta blocking artefacts on several titles since then. Not as bad as BR, as I've said already (just look at that chroma channel in the close-up of Deck that Pyoko posted and the other caps are just as bad, it's always nice to know you're not insane when you see things most other people don't), but blocky enough to still catch my eye every now and then.

Sure, the chroma channels will be lower resolution by default because this is 4:2:0 encoded video we're talking about here, the chroma is literally running at a quarter resolution of the luminance because our eyes are quite forgiving about such things. So even if you look at the chroma channels of a masterful Sony UHD disc like Leon the chroma still looks very blocky and low res, that's because it is...but the chroma on Blade Runner is MONUMENTALLY bad and SPR, although not as rough, certainly has its moments too.

I really am no expert on this so I don't have a clue as to what actual parameters or settings in HEVC would cause such a thing, but perhaps someone came up with a bitrate 'cheat' to keep luminance perfectly preserved but which badly hacks up the chroma channels even more, figuring that the awful chroma blocking would be mistaken for grain anyway? Whatever the case may be, it's extremely disconcerting.

I am no expert either, but is there any chance this issue occurring in the scanning process to a DI or is it just all too obvious to be encoding related? Or worse, even some kind of bad combination going on?