The Incredibles 4K UHD (2004)

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by jh901

Ok, we generally agree that the home theater hobby has been over run with sub-bass fanatics. I won't even bother to comment further on this subject.

What Disney has done with Ragnarok and Black Panther is sabotage the highs and lows. Additionally, the surrounds and rear surrounds are underutilized. I'm only speaking to 7.1 in comparison to dozens of 7.1 or 5.1 from other studios. The contrast is clear.

Perhaps the 7.1 on this new release doesn't suffer the same?

In any event, it will stink if Avengers or Iron Man, etc are released on 4K with inadequate audio.

Originally Posted by jh901

The entire surround experience is dulled. High frequencies. Low frequencies. Surrounds. Rear surrounds. Turn up the volume so dialog is matched, more or less to typical level, and voices, etc sound find, but the dynamic impact of action and special effects, etc is simply neutered.

That is much more descriptive. Thanks.

[Nothing371]

(just using your picture again as a reference for the # of titles released)

Considering the audio issues, I'm surprised that informed people are buying so many of these Disney discs. I would think that our resident audio aficionados wouldn't support these kinds of releases. That, coupled with the the fact that it's an upscale from the 2k master would make it seem like these are the types of titles that don't warrant a 4K disc purchase to anyone whom isn't buying most everything.

I would like the full Disney collection too. But it seems very strange to me that people are spending $28-35 on these discs.

The common theme seems to be that people buy the Disney discs while aware of the audio issues, and then complain about them afterwards. Which seems kind of silly if you're trying to send any sort of message.

[SmartriX]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

(just using your picture again as a reference for the # of titles released)

Considering the audio issues, I'm surprised that informed people are buying so many of these Disney discs. I would think that our resident audio aficionados wouldn't support these kinds of releases. That, coupled with the the fact that it's an upscale from the 2k master would make it seem like these are the types of titles that don't warrant a 4K disc purchase to anyone whom isn't buying most everything.

I would like the full Disney collection too. But it seems very strange to me that people are spending $28-35 on these discs.

The common theme seems to be that people buy the Disney discs while aware of the audio issues, and then complain about them afterwards. Which seems kind of silly if you're trying to send any sort of message.

Quote for the win, 100% - If I don't own it at all then I have no issue but if it is a repeat purchase or upgrade then I try and shop based on discovering the transfer rate and how worth it is for me...http://realorfake4k.com/

[Nothing371]

[jh901]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

Considering the audio issues, I'm surprised that informed people are buying so many of these Disney discs. I would think that our resident audio aficionados wouldn't support these kinds of releases.

I don't go to commercial theaters. I have my own nice set-up which, for my taste, is far better in both image and sound. If I want to see Ragnarok 4K, then I can either buy it or not see it at all.

Originally Posted by Nothing371

That, coupled with the the fact that it's an upscale from the 2k master would make it seem like these are the types of titles that don't warrant a 4K disc purchase to anyone whom isn't buying most everything.

There are members here who have an entrenched viewpoint on this matter who will cling to it irrespective of any and all evidence to the contrary. There's really no point in trying to inform others. I surrender. ("realorfake" should be banned from this site.)

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by SmartriX

Quote for the win, 100% - If I don't own it at all then I have no issue but if it is a repeat purchase or upgrade then I try and shop based on discovering the transfer rate and how worth it is for me...http://realorfake4k.com/

Yeah that's really not the site to use....

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by SmartriX

[Show spoiler]Playing devils advocate for a hot minute...

I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with their wide arching strategy of using one master version for all mediums, dvd, blu ray, 4k uhd, 4k streaming, 2k streaming, digital mobile streaming and their upcoming own streaming platform, cinema, living room, broadcast television etc.

AKA the dynamics feel subpar and LFE feels less just because overall volume is quieter and you need to turn it up to compensate compared to other studio releases... Something about the audio level meeting multiple standards and being best for the common denominator, being a large company and as wide reaching as they are today it has to do something with that I would wager.

Oldest standardizations stem from broadcasting, which absolutely should have been changed but lets not forget that most people do not have soundproofed rooms 100' across where they watch tv. The typical living room is a different sized space than a theater, and things need to be tailored to suit it. Ideally by the same person who did the theatrical mix.

And sometimes based solely on who's in charge of a department might be enough to sway creative direction in one particular direction, say to follow a certain set of mixing principles based on opinion or past experience...

This is a pretty old excerpt but this must be factored into the equation, if you ask me the answer lies between Disney being an old company and following practices such as below that they have been doing for far longer than most others and they are trying to adopt and streamline standard to reduce complexity of internal versions to use for distribution.

"""--A soundtrack that has been mixed for presentation in a large room such as a theater can be described as a theatrical mix. Theatrical mixes anticipate specified equalization playback curves and the greater dynamic range appropriate to a theatrical environment. This is in contrast to near-field mixes, which are intended for playback in smaller rooms, such as those found in homes.

According to Dolby, about 25 percent of studio movies--typically big budget, explosion-filled popcorn flicks--undergo a remixing process that is designed to "shrink" the sound for the living room setting. "When DVDs first started coming out, many studios started to recognize that their bigger action titles weren't translating well into the home environment," says Steve Venezia, director of production services at Dolby. "So a number of studios began to take bigger titles and tweak and remaster them using the same mixer who originally mixed the movie."

Creating this so-called "home theater master" involves simulating the smaller space of a living room using a near-field monitor, and mixing the movie to play back at an average volume of about 79 decibels. This is about a 6 decibel drop over the 85-decibel level that theatrical mixes are designed to be played at, but because the decibel scale is logarithmic, it represents a full 50 percent drop in volume.

Of course, playing a movie back at an average volume of 79 decibels (which is about the volume of a vacuum cleaner), can be troublesome with some scenes. "If you've got small kids, it's probably too loud," says David Gray, Dolby's vice president of production services--.

--Read more: The Problem With DVD Audio Mixes—And What To Do About It - Popular Mechanics"""--

**For all we know Disney has access to data that says 50% of consumers have soundbars now and 40% of consumers digest their medium via streaming or headphones in which case their mixes are optimized for that. Now I'm not saying that is factual but I'm stating the company is big enough to have the resources to determine that data and follow suit... - I don't agree with this approach and I of course would love better mixes just my two cents, food for thought if you will, feel free to disagree.

The idea of Disney sucking some of the life out of its mixes in preparation for its streaming service might have some traction for me if it weren't for one thing: Netflix is producing a ton of original content with Atmos mixes and hard-hitting LFE. It requires no effort to deliver an audio track as-is versus spending the time and money to neuter the same track before it's authored to disc or prepped for streaming. Netflix is leading the way with this stuff when it comes to streaming providers. Disney might have the edge with desirable content when they launch their service, but certainly they can match (or even beat) Netflix when it comes to the technical quality of their shows?

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by jh901

I don't go to commercial theaters. I have my own nice set-up which, for my taste, is far better in both image and sound. If I want to see Ragnarok 4K, then I can either buy it or not see it at all.

You could rent the disc. Or you could stream it on a rental instead. There are other options.

Judging from all of the posts on here in the last few months, most of the people complaining about Disney audio are the ones that are buying the discs. It all seems very strange. It's hard not to call it an overblown issue at that point.

[ronboster]

Originally Posted by jh901

I don't go to commercial theaters. I have my own nice set-up which, for my taste, is far better in both image and sound. If I want to see Ragnarok 4K, then I can either buy it or not see it at all.

Looking at your set up in your signature....it's very nice!! I still enjoy going to some commercial theaters. But, I am pickier in where and what I see now. I'm also trying to showing some restraint in my upgrades and blind buys as well.

[Pieter V]

DISC INFO:

Disc Size: 63,986,385,048 bytes
Protection: AACS2
BD-Java: Yes
Extras: Ultra HD
BDInfo: 0.5.8.7

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name: 00800.MPLS
Length: 1:55:18.703 (h:m:s.ms)
Size: 52,981,831,680 bytes
Total Bitrate: 61.26 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec Bitrate Description
----- ------- -----------
MPEG-H HEVC Video 43275 kbps 2160p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Main 10 Profile 5.1 High / 4:2:0 / 10 bits / HDR / BT.2020 /

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Dolby Atmos/TrueHD Audio English 7994 kbps 7.1-Atmos / 48 kHz / 7994 kbps / 24-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1-EX / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 3835 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 3835 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1-ES / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio English 320 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 320 kbps / Dolby Surround
Dolby Digital Audio English 320 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 320 kbps / Dolby Surround
Dolby Digital EX Audio French 640 kbps 5.1-EX / 48 kHz / 640 kbps
Dolby Digital EX Audio Spanish 640 kbps 5.1-EX / 48 kHz / 640 kbps

SUBTITLES:

Codec Language Bitrate Description
----- -------- ------- -----------
Presentation Graphics English 37.17 kbps
Presentation Graphics French 35.302 kbps
Presentation Graphics Spanish 34.462 kbps
Presentation Graphics English 0.059 kbps
Presentation Graphics Spanish 0.06 kbps

[NzYme]

Originally Posted by bbeck

The idea of Disney sucking some of the life out of its mixes in preparation for its streaming service might have some traction for me if it weren't for one thing: Netflix is producing a ton of original content with Atmos mixes and hard-hitting LFE. It requires no effort to deliver an audio track as-is versus spending the time and money to neuter the same track before it's authored to disc or prepped for streaming. Netflix is leading the way with this stuff when it comes to streaming providers. Disney might have the edge with desirable content when they launch their service, but certainly they can match (or even beat) Netflix when it comes to the technical quality of their shows?

But an online/leasing model is the only one Netflix has. They are trying to lure the end user to their platform. Disney on the other hand would LOVE to get rid of all physical sales and have you lease their content on a continual basis for the next 10 years.

I'm going to love the comparisons of Disney titles when they launch their streaming platform in 2019.

[bbeck]

I'm just saying, the argument that Disney could be neutering their audio in preparation for their streaming service doesn't hold water for me. Netflix is king of the hill here, the one Disney would most like to take down a notch or two, and doesn't do anything to "dumb down" the audio on their original content.

[DasManiac]

Originally Posted by gemcgee64

Nope. Just took the original 2K DI and up converted it to 4K. Bummer.

That's a shame. I suspected Pixar wouldn't invest in re-rendering the film. It can't be a technology issue. I figured The Incredibles is old enough that Pixar is able to re-render it in 4k. Nemo is probably the earliest Pixar title that would realistically benefit from being re-rendered in 4k. I just don't think anything earlier would benefit due to the significantly less complex assets.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Zimmy

What a crushing disappointment for a 4k catalog title I was really waiting for.

I will pour a glass of Rye and put in my Blu-Ray and watch it instead.

I realize it must be cost prohibitive to rescan in 4k but if you are charging $35+ shouldn't you be giving fans a reason to buy again?

It will be interesting to see how they handle Incredibles 2.

And don't get me started on the Atmos track. There is no way that every review of their titles calling the tracks weak doesn't get back to somebody in charge.

You can’t “rescan” something that was completely rendered with computers. The movie was finished in a 2K DI with no actual camera footage so there is no way to “scan” it at a higher resolution.

Originally Posted by gemcgee64

Nope. Just took the original 2K DI and up converted it to 4K. Bummer.

Originally Posted by DasManiac

That's a shame. I suspected Pixar wouldn't invest in re-rendering the film. It can't be a technology issue. I figured The Incredibles is old enough that Pixar is able to re-render it in 4k. Nemo is probably the earliest Pixar title that would realistically benefit from being re-rendered in 4k. I just don't think anything earlier would benefit due to the significantly less complex assets.

It would be cost/resource-taking prohibitive to render an entire film in 4K. Hardly any CGI effects in live action films get rendered in 4K due to how long and much resources it would take to do that (meaning, way more money). If the majority of live action films with special effects aren’t rendering CGI in 4K, which is only a portion of the film, for their theatrical releases, what makes you think they’d render an entire catalogue release in 4K for home media?

It’s possible to do it but it would just simply take too much time and money to do it, so at this point most studios simply render in 2K and upscale, sometimes upscaling the special effects only and keeping shot footage at a higher res, so the film overall can get finished in 4K. Maybe in 5 years the cost will be lower and computers will be more efficient to make that feasible but we’re not there yet.

Also, people get way too hung up in resolution. HDR and a wider color gamut with better color volume provide a more visible upgrade to films than resolution does. I wish they had marketed the new format with a different name because now everyone just expects more pixels out of it instead of the other two more important visual upgrades that it brings to movies.

[Kris Deering]

Subtle improvement in picture quality compared to the Blu. Stronger colors and no subtle banding like the Blu. The Atmos mix isn’t nearly as bad as some other Disney releases. Nice low end and I found the overheads to be engaging. I didn’t get to compare directly to the DTS track yet but I don’t agree with the neutered score on this site at all.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by Lnds500

A 2K upscale will never be as good as a 4K master, the same way a Blu-ray sourced from a DVD master was never as good as a brand new restoration.

But in many cases, if you didn't know something was a 2K upscale or native 4K, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference — especially sitting in your chair 5 feet form the TV (not pixel counting on zoomed in screenshots looking for every little hair).

Not saying this release is great, and its obviously not a blanket statement, but many of the 2K upscales look VERY good. Obviously, it depends on the quality of the 2k version itself, but that's what we get going digital when it wasn't fully ready yet. A decade of films at lower resolutions, most of which can't ever look much better than the native 1080 they were filmed in.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

Not saying this release is great, and its obviously not a blanket statement, but many of the 2K upscales look VERY good.

In the case of this particular movie, a 4K re-render would likely offer very little picture improvement over the existing up-scaled 2K render. The scaling eliminates aliasing in object geometry almost as precisely as the higher native resolution would, leaving fine detail in textures as the only area where the picture can really be improved. Improvement there would likely be minimal, as well, as the textures for this movie were designed for a 2K render target and likely don't offer a lot of detail that isn't already present in the 2K master.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Lnds500

I've been reading the thread and various other 4K threads and I wanted to voice my opinion about something

I think it's weird how a lot of people turn on their head to justify purchasing upscales and say that "it's great", "no need of a 4K conversion" while it was the complete opposite a few years ago.

I mean, I get it, the 4K BD, as it is, is better than the standard BD, but let's be adults and admit that there is potential for something better, especially if we are to preserve and keep these films for some time.

A 2K upscale will never be as good as a 4K master, the same way a Blu-ray sourced from a DVD master was never as good as a brand new restoration.

I understand why a re-rendering hasn't happened but I'll be damned if I ever accept the argument "we tried it and couldn't tell the difference" when it comes to computer graphics and resolution .

CGI films are the only digital films that we can practically remaster for 4K and I think that's what we should be striving for and not be "1000% ok" with Disney selling us upscales.

And yes I know some people are buying this for reasons other than the resolution (HDR, Atmos), I just wanted to voice my opinion regarding the upscaling practice.

1. All Disney PIXAR animation flicks should be done in 3D before they even attempt @ 4K.
2. The Dolby Atmos exclusivity to 4K is a doomsday; with Disney even more so.

I agree with what you've just said; we are kids here, matured kids, from various ages and backgrounds, we have taste, we pick wisely our flicks in the formats we like, film production values, visually, aurally, entertainment caliber.
We take one film @ a time and we dissect it with a razor sharp scalpel from a master surgeon's magic hands.

Disney used to be a winning leader, now they are a losing inferior.
They can have all the money in the world, and ours too.
It's us who approve of them and make them rich, and it works!...mostly.
...And @ the theaters and Disneyland.

quote=Jimmy Smith;15149241]Yeah I might make the upgrade for the one if it drops in price by a LOT. While I like this movie this doesn't seem like it offers an upgrade nearly worth its current price tag

Disney BR titles they don't usually go down much in price, and a bunch of them they go up in price.

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

Yes, let us all be adults... lol wtf does that mean?

It was a way of speech, lol ...We no adults, adults have preconceived ideas and slaved to them, slave to the rhythm. There's not much adult stuff in The Incredibles, lol, the baby can spit fire from his mouth like in Godzilla's last flick.
We love to be kids, we love nerds and geeks. Adults are corrupted and unhealthy for the evolution of our planet, just look @ the TV news everyday for example.

Originally Posted by Nothing371

I'm going to need people to explain one thing for me regarding the Disney Dolby Atmos situation.

If all that is required for you to achieve a normal level of Atmos sound is for you to turn you volume up 8-10 notches, then what is the problem?

(serious question. I'm not looking to instigate; just trying to understand. I use a simple 2.1 soundbar and have little knowledge about Atmos setups.)

In addition to turning the master volume up (it depends of people's own systems and tolerances; it averages from 6 to 15dB boost - for me personally it's in the 10-12dB additional boost), we also noticed that the bass impact is not what it used to be, and for people with LFE reproducers from that extremely important .1 channel @ the movies, it just doesn't bounce our rocking chair. And, the overall dynamics (from micro to macro sound elements, balance of all the frequencies from the full bandwidth of the audio spectrum jusf isn't there; it's missing what's good about movies made with taste, that dimensional sound impact...Blade Runner 2049 style.

That's all, there's nothing else really more to it...it feels empty.

[Vangeli]

If we can get Disney to change then that's fantastic and I'm with it 100%! But I'm not gonna stop buying movies that I want.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Nothing371

(just using your picture again as a reference for the # of titles released)

Considering the audio issues, I'm surprised that informed people are buying so many of these Disney discs. I would think that our resident audio aficionados wouldn't support these kinds of releases. That, coupled with the the fact that it's an upscale from the 2k master would make it seem like these are the types of titles that don't warrant a 4K disc purchase to anyone whom isn't buying most everything.

I would like the full Disney collection too. But it seems very strange to me that people are spending $28-35 on these discs.

The common theme seems to be that people buy the Disney discs while aware of the audio issues, and then complain about them afterwards. Which seems kind of silly if you're trying to send any sort of message.

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the population don't buy this Disney Star Wars Marvel Comics PIXAR 3D/4K BR stuff.
It's only a fraction from the rest, 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% who are the elite hardcore cult fanatics addicts passionate movie gurus collectors valued customers, us. Without us this world would do just fine. But we need some magic spice in life to electrify us. ...And Disney 4K BR flicks for that elite miniscule minority is it.
The rest don't give a smoking pipe of a legalized herb.