Calibration Tales

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

The OP may some axe to grind with someone.

Yes, I do. Manufacturers.

Why is it that these settings are so difficult to set and maintain? It's not like we aren't paying for it.

I got rid of my tach/dwell meters, timing light, point gap tool, and other stuff about five years back. They're of no use to me for the Corvette C5, BMW M Roadster, Mercury Marauder, or even my 1998 F-150, as they all have those functions built in. It's time, folks; we're being had, by even the high end manufacturers. Make some noise.

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

He also says he has Sony's that have limited service menu options. Sony sets can be adjusted pretty close to as good as they can get with your eye and DVE. I have two Sony LCD's and I know this.

One is an LCD, the other, an SXRD. And yes, they are easy to set.

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

I also have to agree that someone with a premium display and a colorimeter can achieve near perfection on their own. However, that individual has to be somewhat savvy with electronics and computers...much more savvy than many who can and do afford premium electronics. Visit some of the threads at AVS. They are full of guys with high-end custom home theaters who can barely figure out how to download firmware and burn it to a CD or DVD. How can you expect them to calibrate a display. I don't think you can.

BINGO

I bet they can set the screen modes, and adjust color, hue, and temperature setting on their menus. I bet they can get the microphones that come with their high end receivers and subs, and set their speaker levels. And I bet they were willing to pay good money to have these features.

I also bet if they had to pay somebody $400 to set the volume, and crossover, and all that stuff for their audio, they'd be red-hot ticked off. Wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

I am having a calibrator coming to my home next month. I will post my opinion afterwords.

Watch him close, and tell us if he has a magic wand in his back, or something.

[LIONSFAN20]

Sorry Blu-Dog but you have NO idea of what you are talking about. All the stupid BS about light, media source and that junk is wrong. NONE of that has any effect of the HDTV calibration. These are digital TV's there for absolute/true blue, or green, or red, magenta, cyan, yellow, and white ALL have a numerical value to achieve that true color. Just because the lights in my room are bright does not change that fact. And it doesn't matter if I watch a Bluray movie or cable tv, if blue is not true blue your tv is displaying a poor image.

[jsteinhauer]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Yes, I do. Manufacturers.

Why is it that these settings are so difficult to set and maintain? It's not like we aren't paying for it.

I admit, the fact that there are double secret settings in the "service menu" that can not be accessed by the owner without voiding a warranty is disgusting.

I bet they can set the screen modes, and adjust color, hue, and temperature setting on their menus. I bet they can get the microphones that come with their high end receivers and subs, and set their speaker levels. And I bet they were willing to pay good money to have these features.

I also bet if they had to pay somebody $400 to set the volume, and crossover, and all that stuff for their audio, they'd be red-hot ticked off. Wouldn't you?

You may be right. I don't know any of them. They don't want to pay for software to burn DVD's, though.

Watch him close, and tell us if he has a magic wand in his back, or something.

I will watch close. I'm doing this for exactly that reason. To look for the magic. I will allow calibration on inputs other than the one I have already set myself, so I can compare directly. I will have my own calibration charts handy.

Dog, your expectations of people are high. Many, many people, probably most people don't want to read, learn or invest hours in such activities (unless it's a video game). This is a whole different topic.

It's funny, about the cars. I know very little about them, but when I use to have pre 1985 vintage vehicles (about 10 years ago by now) I would do most of the work on them myself. It took a lot of time, but I had more of that then and a lot less money. A brake job, new shocks, tie rod ends, fuel pump, whatever, cost what the parts did, and a couple of extra tools. I remember being on a road trip and my battery wouldn't charge, and I got stuck buying a new alternator, about 300 dollars with labor. I now I just needed a new belt, but I did not have tools. They had me by the you know whats.

I do all of my own plumbing work, too, figuring it out as I go, but I still will pay someone to replace my septic tank pump.

There aren't that many real DIYer's anymore.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

Sorry Blu-Dog but you have NO idea of what you are talking about.

Obviously, you heard this from my wife.

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

All the stupid BS about light, media source and that junk is wrong. NONE of that has any effect of the HDTV calibration.

You're absolutely correct, which is the reason I didn't say anything that stupid.

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

These are digital TV's there for absolute/true blue, or green, or red, magenta, cyan, yellow, and white ALL have a numerical value to achieve that true color.

Perfectly true. I agree, 100%.

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

Just because the lights in my room are bright does not change that fact. And it doesn't matter if I watch a Bluray movie or cable tv, if blue is not true blue your tv is displaying a poor image.

Sorry, Lions Fan, but you have NO idea of what I am talking about.

Look, here's an example. We get three identical televisions, and calibrate them until we're both satisfied that they are all set up correctly. Let's say they're all high end Kuro plasmas, or Sony XBR8 LCD's, some high-end standard.

We then put them in three different rooms. One is well lit with normal daylight. The second is well lit with flourescent light. The third is in a dim space, backlit. Will the images all look ideal? Or will you fiddle with the settings until they look correct?

Next, we get three uncalibrated sets. We take them into the same three rooms, and knob-diddle with them until the images are the same as the calibrated and adjusted sets. (I know, you say this isn't possible, but I say it is; humor me).

The settings won't be the same, numerically; but the image will be. Unless the sets were so woefully inaccurate in the beginning that the images can't match - a claim I just can't accept - we will be looking at the same image, with a different baseline setting.

With me so far?

Now, let's hook up a cable box with HDMI, and a good Blu player, and and HD-DVD relic, and watch King Kong on Showtime, and King Kong on Blu and HD-DVD. Same image, you think?

Let's hook up and Xbox, and a PS3, and an HTPC, play Call Halo 3 or Crysis or whatever. Same image, you think?

Let's watch the news on the cable box with HDMI, and the same station - in 480p, both stations - with coax cable. Same image, you think?

To your point, and I do understand your point, if we use the same source - call it the Blu player, identical connections - we should see the same image on the three calibrated sets, and three "crappy images" on the non-calibrated sets. Even though room adjustments have been made on all six sets.

Or would you leave the calibrated sets unadjusted, no matter where they were, or how they were connected?

I think everyone here knows what they're talking about; but they may not know what the other guy is talking about. You're talking about one leg of the elephant, and I'm talking about the entire beast.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

Dog, your expectations of people are high. Many, many people, probably most people don't want to read, learn or invest hours in such activities (unless it's a video game). This is a whole different topic.

I guess I am a bit impatient with people who don't get into these things. I'm more impatient with manufacturers that make easy things difficult, through laziness or design - and I reward those that think things through and simplify them, by buying their products.

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

It's funny, about the cars. I know very little about them, but when I use to have pre 1985 vintage vehicles (about 10 years ago by now) I would do most of the work on them myself. It took a lot of time, but I had more of that then and a lot less money. A brake job, new shocks, tie rod ends, fuel pump, whatever, cost what the parts did, and a couple of extra tools. I remember being on a road trip and my battery wouldn't charge, and I got stuck buying a new alternator, about 300 dollars with labor. I now I just needed a new belt, but I did not have tools. They had me by the you know whats.

Back when we couldn't afford Triple-A, my wife and youngest son - then about 11 - were 200 miles from home when she saw the ammeter guage on the Camaro drop to zero. So she managed to get the car to a Chief Auto on the interstate. Went in, bought an alternator, borrowed a couple of wrenches, and they swapped it out themselves in the parking lot, in about 20 minutes. They'd watched me do it on another car about a month before.

This stuff isn't hard; all you have to do, is calm down, and think it through.

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

I do all of my own plumbing work, too, figuring it out as I go, but I still will pay someone to replace my septic tank pump.

Aw, man. That's nasty. That's just nasty.

Originally Posted by jsteinhauer

There aren't that many real DIYer's anymore.

At $400 for a 20 minute job, there probably will be, in this economy.

[LIONSFAN20]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Obviously, you heard this from my wife.



You're absolutely correct, which is the reason I didn't say anything that stupid.



Perfectly true. I agree, 100%.



Sorry, Lions Fan, but you have NO idea of what I am talking about.

Look, here's an example. We get three identical televisions, and calibrate them until we're both satisfied that they are all set up correctly. Let's say they're all high end Kuro plasmas, or Sony XBR8 LCD's, some high-end standard.

We then put them in three different rooms. One is well lit with normal daylight. The second is well lit with flourescent light. The third is in a dim space, backlit. Will the images all look ideal? Or will you fiddle with the settings until they look correct?

Stop there a minute, I am NOT saying that a calibration would fix this condition, what I am saying is that a calibration will make blue a true blue NO MATTER what room conditions are.

Next, we get three uncalibrated sets. We take them into the same three rooms, and knob-diddle with them until the images are the same as the calibrated and adjusted sets. (I know, you say this isn't possible, but I say it is; humor me).

The settings won't be the same, numerically; but the image will be. Unless the sets were so woefully inaccurate in the beginning that the images can't match - a claim I just can't accept - we will be looking at the same image, with a different baseline setting.

Well I can so just HUMOR ME!!

With me so far?

Now, let's hook up a cable box with HDMI, and a good Blu player, and and HD-DVD relic, and watch King Kong on Showtime, and King Kong on Blu and HD-DVD. Same image, you think?

Again this is not the point I am making, but at least they should have the same red/green/blue levels(lets hope they are true,... probably not, but I will HUMOR YOU)

Let's hook up and Xbox, and a PS3, and an HTPC, play Call Halo 3 or Crysis or whatever. Same image, you think?

Let's watch the news on the cable box with HDMI, and the same station - in 480p, both stations - with coax cable. Same image, you think?

To your point, and I do understand your point, if we use the same source - call it the Blu player, identical connections - we should see the same image on the three calibrated sets, and three "crappy images" on the non-calibrated sets. Even though room adjustments have been made on all six sets.

Or would you leave the calibrated sets unadjusted, no matter where they were, or how they were connected?

I think everyone here knows what they're talking about; but they may not know what the other guy is talking about. You're talking about one leg of the elephant, and I'm talking about the entire beast.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion.

I work in the auto mobile industry, in fact we just passed GM for #1 in the world. Now I can make your car run better by simply changing spark plugs and doing some tuning tricks. But, NOW HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION, how much better do you think I can get it to run if I could customize the ECU?
(and by the way this would be true for any car if its a Kia or a Lexus, does not matter, catch my drift)

For everyday use by average Joe Smith the car runs just fine off the lot, but for those of us that like to go fast thats where the "calibration" comes in.

[Blu-Dog]

I won't replay all the quotes, but I will say, I understand what you're saying, and am largely in agreement with it.

So I will humor you for what I disagree with. I don't think you're wrong - I just disagree with some of it.

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

I work in the auto mobile industry, in fact we just passed GM for #1 in the world. Now I can make your car run better by simply changing spark plugs and doing some tuning tricks. But, NOW HERE IS THE REAL QUESTION, how much better do you think I can get it to run if I could customize the ECU?
(and by the way this would be true for any car if its a Kia or a Lexus, does not matter, catch my drift)

Yeah, that's why I can humor you; we're not talking about exactly the same thing. Carry the analogy a bit further; would you tune it for horsepower and torque, or fuel economy? Low end grunt, or top end revs? Tighter shift points, or wider range between shifts?

If it was for a television - would you tune it for lower power consumption? Look at this nonsense for example:
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And...ustry/F4B3J3M5

Or would you tune it for longer bulb life? Or would you go iron-strong for absolute delivery of the correct values for everything, and then de-tune it to something that fits the environment?

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

For everyday use by average Joe Smith the car runs just fine off the lot, but for those of us that like to go fast thats where the "calibration" comes in.

I don't think we're that far apart, man. In the case of TV's, you're talking about "blueprinting" the unit - the base point from which you will do enhancements. I'm talking about doing it stock - not balancing the rods and crank, not cracking the heads at all, not reprogramming the ECU - just squirting WD40 on the linkages. At least in your view.

Yep, we disagree, but if you can squeeze another hundred horses out of my C5, we need to have a serious talk.

[LIONSFAN20]

Okay I get it, we will be on different sides of the fence, but I personally think my $400 was well spent, I can not even watch my Sony LCD tv now, and yes I have done the calibration with 2 discs. It is no where close to the Samsung DLP. I personally would HIGHLY recommend it to anyone on any TV. I believe in it so much, I offered to my co-workers (about 6 of them) that if they got there TVs calibrated and DID NOT notice a significant difference in picture quality I would pay for it myself.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by LIONSFAN20

Okay I get it, we will be on different sides of the fence, but I personally think my $400 was well spent, I can not even watch my Sony LCD tv now, and yes I have done the calibration with 2 discs. It is no where close to the Samsung DLP. I personally would HIGHLY recommend it to anyone on any TV. I believe in it so much, I offered to my co-workers (about 6 of them) that if they got there TVs calibrated and DID NOT notice a significant difference in picture quality I would pay for it myself.

I bet the dude took your set to a clean baseline, then did the right tweaks to it. If it was worth $400 to you, cool; that's probably $.10 an hour you're paying for a hugely improved picture on your set for the next two years of family viewing.

I'm not sure everyone should be encouraged to do this - for some folks, they'll get the impression its required, and shy away from HDTV altogether for quite a while. Not the best result...

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by VinnAY

I've challenged it numerous times, but not to the degree that you have! I've also voiced myself about:

Breaking in a plasma for 100 hours - Total BS

Breaking in speakers - More Total BS




Have fun with it but you're going get flamed big time for your opinion.

Speakers need to be broken In TY .....

[zak313]

Blu-Dog, I bet u the reason that ur sayin calibration is not worth it is because u havent calibrated urs thats all. So please next time speak for ur self. Its ok u might not have the money to calibrate it , but just dont say its not worth it. If a isf tech were to calibrate ur tv for free, than ull like it and will tell people to do it. People dont believe this guy if ur thinkin of calibrating ur tv, do it. U will not regret it.

[Halcro 1]

I had my set calabrated I know its worth it ,, And that all thats matters .... People drive a BMW and think its worth it same deal LOL

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Halcro 1

Speakers need to be broken In TY .....

Specifically, the rubber surrounds on speakers need to be broken in, and only if they're thick. It doesn't take long, and only affects them slightly before being broken in.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Halcro 1

Speakers need to be broken In TY .....

VinnAY has argued with me on this several times that speakers don't need any break in what so ever and that they do not change their sound after break in. He has also insisted that electronic equipment does not need any break in/burn in and the same for any cabling, speaker or otherwise. As I recall, when I brought up breaking in of new cars, he indicted that they needed none.

Rich

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Specifically, the rubber surrounds on speakers need to be broken in, and only if they're thick. It doesn't take long, and only affects them slightly before being broken in.

The drivers themselves need to break in. They are too rigid to begin with and have to become more compliant.

Rich

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

VinnAY has argued with me on this several times that speakers don't need any break in what so ever and that they do not change their sound after break in. He has also insisted that electronic equipment does not need any break in/burn in and the same for any cabling, speaker or otherwise.

Rich

electronics and cabling sounds better and speakers after break in....speakers move @ in the enviroment that I work in (15000) watt Pro sound the speakers need to be broken in every show , Thats why at I concert the sound being played through the PA isnt loud and as tome goes on the PA gets louder there is a reason for it ....

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by zak313

Blu-Dog, I bet u the reason that ur sayin calibration is not worth it is because u havent calibrated urs thats all.

I'll take that bet. Check my previous post on my family member's ISF experience with a television nearly identical to mine. Six inch size difference, no difference in quality.

Originally Posted by zak313

So please next time speak for ur self.

Well, I could speak for you, but you'd have to pay me. I'm sure you wouldn't mind; I charge $400, and the money will go directly to the local calibration cowboy, which should please you no end.

Originally Posted by zak313

Its ok u might not have the money to calibrate it , but just dont say its not worth it.

I don't have enough money to pay $400 for calibration; however, I do have enough money to buy 20 Blu-ray movies. Get my drift?

Originally Posted by zak313

If a isf tech were to calibrate ur tv for free, than ull like it and will tell people to do it.

An ISF tech did calibrate my set, at the factory. I got mine directly from Sony. And I do like it, and I would advise everyone to do this.

See? We agree!

Originally Posted by zak313

People dont believe this guy if ur thinkin of calibrating ur tv, do it. U will not regret it.

I don't ask for "belief"; I'm not starting a cult, and refuse to send around a collection plate. I can make more money winning bets with you.

I'm simply questioning the common sense of buying a television set that costs $3K-$5K, and then having people say it will have, and I quote, a "crappy image" until some dude shows up and "fixes" it for $400.

Don't believe me. Believe your eyes, as you look at the incredibly nice electronics you have in your home, that you paid good money for.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Halcro 1

I had my set calabrated I know its worth it ,, And that all thats matters .... People drive a BMW and think its worth it same deal LOL

I didn't have my set calibrated, and I know it's still worth every penny I spent on it. That's all that matters.

And I do drive a BMW. An M Roadster. Never had it tuned since I got it. Doesn't need it until it hits 100K.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

VinnAY has argued with me on this several times that speakers don't need any break in what so ever and that they do not change their sound after break in. He has also insisted that electronic equipment does not need any break in/burn in and the same for any cabling, speaker or otherwise. As I recall, when I brought up breaking in of new cars, he indicted that they needed none.

Rich

Modern engines no longer need break-in, but it's better to drive them carefully for a while to be sure nothing was built wrong.

My Corvette engine didn't need break-in when I got it; every Corvette engine is run at wide open throttle, through a full tank of gas, at the factory. Before it goes in a car.

But a conductor? It does not need break-in. Perhaps where it is joined is questionable; bad solder jobs, sloppy connections, are all revealed only after being run for a while. But if made correctly, they do not require "burn-in", or "break-in", unless they are temperature sensitive and need to warm up for every cycle of operation.

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I didn't have my set calibrated, and I know it's still worth every penny I spent on it. That's all that matters.

And I do drive a BMW. An M Roadster. Never had it tuned since I got it. Doesn't need it until it hits 100K.

I had mine calabrated Its nicer is it 300 dollars nicer Yes ... Is it for everybody Nope .... Is a BMW nicer than my Nissan ... Yes Is it for everybody .... Nope....Is my Halcro gear nicer than most .... Yep 15K Nicer than a Denon reciever ... Nope .... But it kicks ass .. Just like your BMW over my Nissan.... Pick your poision I guess