Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[ROSS.T.G.]

I’ve been experimenting with different sound curves on my AVR and different speaker configuration so I thought I would throw this on again and my word the Atmos track is excellent. These near field mixes are getter much better.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by GKintz

Geoff didn't assume. Contrary to Thau's comment, multi-channel stereo in film was not a "new toy" in 1978. Nor was the practice of directional dialog which had been in used with multi-channel film mixes starting in the the early 1950's. It also 'is' a question of taste, as some recent titles still utilize occasions of directional dialog mixing, and like many of the titles done long before Superman, can be done quite effectively.

Maybe Thau meant that Dolby Stereo specifically was a "new toy?" I dunno. To be fair, the Superman remix wasn't the only one from that era to put previously directional dialogue in the center channel.

I think I've mentioned this before, but the Superman remix is sort of the exception to the rule for me. It is revisionist, but for some reason, it doesn't bother me as much as other remixes do. Aside from a couple of issues (removing the echoing "forbidden... forbidden" from the shot of Superman flying around Earth, for example), it's a technically well-engineered track.

That said, I'm very happy the original audio has usually been available in some form or another (aside from that initial DVD with only the extended cut). And though lossless would have been better, this new DD 5.1 is something of a revelation.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But with all due respect to the man I actually cringed when I read his reasoning as to why they ignored the panning 70mm dialogue, that it was because stereo was a new toy and that dialogue sounds better coming from the centre. The first assertion is questionable at best - I'm guessing he wasn't aware of plenty of 70mm movies made well before STM that had directional dialogue across the fronts? - and the second is purely a question of taste. Directional dialogue 4life

I wanted to review the history on this before I said too much about it, but from what I can find directional dialog likely goes all the way back to Cinerama in 1952. 20th Century Fox was definitely using it from the beginning of Cinemascope (on 35mm) in 1953. They actually were recording the dialog with a three mic setup until 1958, then using electronics to simulate the same effect from monaural dialog until resorting to simple pot-panning in 1962.

However I also found that Warner supposedly used monaural dialog on the center channel only for most of its Cinemascope productions such as "Rebel Without a Cause."

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

He was aware, but in 2000 they were remixing those older films and centering the dialogue because that was the mixing practice at the time - keep dialogue centered because the differences in timbre between the r/l and center channels, not to mention the narrower soundstage in "shoebox" movie theaters and home setups. With SDDS-8 and now Atmos they have additional speakers in the left center & right center so dialogue panning (in Atmos dialogue can be a discrete object) isn't much of a problem anymore. The new Atmos mix is based on Thau's mix so the dialogue keeps centered but if they had the tech back in 2000 they might have retained the directionality.

He was aware? It sure doesn't sound like it to me, he directly equates the panning 70mm dialogue with 'new toy' stereo syndrome and it's a spectacularly ignorant comment given the history of 70mm audio. I know that collapsing the dialogue into the centre was the mixing practice at the time, that's why I said it was a matter of taste, that part of the interview reads as him throwing the directional dialogue under the bus because he simply doesn't like it, implying that it was a newfangled gimmick anyway.

This guy gets it:

Originally Posted by GKintz

Geoff didn't assume. Contrary to Thau's comment, multi-channel stereo in film was not a "new toy" in 1978. Nor was the practice of directional dialog which had been in used with multi-channel film mixes starting in the the early 1950's. It also 'is' a question of taste, as some recent titles still utilize occasions of directional dialog mixing, and like many of the titles done long before Superman, can be done quite effectively.

And they didn't just collapse down the dialogue either for that remix, they actually did it to sound effects too which to me has no rationale to justify it seeing as the point was to open up the mix, not bury it:

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I don't know if I mentioned this but it's not just the dialogue that pans either, I know you didn't say it was but your post reminded me of something. When Pa Kent is changing the truck tyre after baby Kal lands, he takes it off and lets it roll away to screen right, on the 70mm mix the tyre is clearly heard trundling into the right speaker - but on the modern remix (5.1 or core 7.1, doesn't matter which) that effect is locked into the centre channel.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

He was aware? It sure doesn't sound like it to me, he directly equates the panning 70mm dialogue with 'new toy' stereo syndrome and it's a spectacularly ignorant comment given the history of 70mm audio.

Yes, but 70MM Dolby Stereo (surround 5.1) was brand new and never done before. New toy.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thought the panning dialogue in Superman was a gimmick to help sell the new format.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Can anyone post a screenshot of the opening comic book from the 4K release? I'm curious if you're finally able to read all of the panels -- they've been soft and illegible in previous home video releases.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yes, but 70MM Dolby Stereo (surround 5.1) was brand new and never done before. New toy.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thought the panning dialogue in Superman was a gimmick to help sell the new format.

And yet many films now (not with home mixes) still do directional dialogue

[notops]

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

And yet many films now (not with home mixes) still do directional dialogue

Examples?

[moviebuff75]

So, the 70mm stereo didn't feature different cues and elements than the 35mm version? Similar to GREASE?

[Win Slow]

I saw up to the end of the helicopter scene last night; i dunno ... i wasn't enamored with the 4K but i did find it to be a noticeable improvement over the Blu Ray. It feels kind of early to make a conclusion though, perhaps the rest of the film makes a better impression.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by moviebuff75

So, the 70mm stereo didn't feature different cues and elements than the 35mm version? Similar to GREASE?

Basically. They wouldn't add anything.
70MM was discrete with its own bass (LFE) channel where everything was matrixed onto 2 channels for the 35MM version.

[punisher]

[QUOTE=Geoff D;15744079]He was aware? It sure doesn't sound like it to me, he directly equates the panning 70mm dialogue with 'new toy' stereo syndrome and it's a spectacularly ignorant comment given the history of 70mm audio. I know that collapsing the dialogue into the centre was the mixing practice at the time, that's why I said it was a matter of taste, that part of the interview reads as him throwing the directional dialogue under the bus because he simply doesn't like it, implying that it was a newfangled gimmick anyway.

This guy gets it:




And they didn't just collapse down the dialogue either for that remix, they actually did it to sound effects too which to me has no rationale to justify it seeing as the point was to open up the mix, not bury it:[/QUOTE
]
hope your back doesn't bruise easily from the self patting it gets..

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yes, but 70MM Dolby Stereo (surround 5.1) was brand new and never done before. New toy.
I wouldn't be surprised if he thought the panning dialogue in Superman was a gimmick to help sell the new format.

Sounds like a bit of a reach to me, he even says in the same interview that the split surround was barely used so I don't think he's confusing anything: he just doesn't like directional dialogue, which has nothing to do with split surrounds whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Cliff

Holy Christ... that's MY interview. I did that interview with Thau for DVDFile in 2001. I haven't seen it in years. Was fun reading it again, so thanks.

I thought I recognised the name. When did you segue from doing print interviews into producing special features, or were they concurrent gigs and the latter just evolved from the former?

[punisher]

so says the Grand Duck..uh I mean Duke

[ditcin]

Ok, I just got the disc. I have an OPPO player, and a Marantz receiver. Both are Dolby Vision workable. However I also have the Sony XBR-75X940E Now that TV had a Dolby Vision update but from what I've heard only for transmissions like Netflix, cable stations.

The picture quality is on the darker side, with faded colors and bad contrast. I've tried to shut off the Dolby Vision on the Oppo but nothing I do changes the picture quality.
Has anyone else run in to this problem?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ditcin

Ok, I just got the disc. I have an OPPO player, and a Marantz receiver. Both are Dolby Vision workable. However I also have the Sony XBR-75X940E Now that TV had a Dolby Vision update but from what I've heard only for transmissions like Netflix, cable stations.

The picture quality is on the darker side, with faded colors and bad contrast. I've tried to shut off the Dolby Vision on the Oppo but nothing I do changes the picture quality.
Has anyone else run in to this problem?

Have you set the OPPO's HDR to Forced then turned it off then on again? This will force the HDR10 layer on the UHD, see what you think it looks like then.

Although TBH you're kinda describing the look of the UHD in general, the colour is really toned down in some spots (Krypton Council scene) although Supes' suit still zings, and the contrast is quite, ah, relaxed. It's interesting reading the Thau interview about the 2001 SE where he's taking the colourists to task because they're playing down the contrast and he wanted more and more, it sounds like those colourists finally got their wish with the UHD grading.

[HunterTech]

Originally Posted by punisher

so says the Grand Duck..uh I mean Duke

......I didn't even detect anything slightly negative in what Geoff was saying there.

I swear every Superman thread has someone trying to ruin the fun for whatever stupid reason......

[Geoff D]

It's quite alright Hunter, I think everyone can see what punisher's up to. I'm happy to let him get on with it, he'll latch on to someone else soon enough. So says the Grand Duck!

[ditcin]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Have you set the OPPO's HDR to Forced then turned it off then on again? This will force the HDR10 layer on the UHD, see what you think it looks like then.

Although TBH you're kinda describing the look of the UHD in general, the colour is really toned down in some spots (Krypton Council scene) although Supes' suit still zings, and the contrast is quite, ah, relaxed. It's interesting reading the Thau interview about the 2001 SE where he's taking the colourists to task because they're playing down the contrast and he wanted more and more, it sounds like those colourists finally got their wish with the UHD grading.

Just tried what you suggested - no good. The contrast is terrible. No blacks, very dull. Even the "black" bars in the letterbox image are dark.

What now?

[Geoff D]

The black level's pretty light to begin with on this transfer, although the background in the opening credits should be 'letterbox' black at least. What now? I dunno. Can you connect the 203 to the TV directly, just to rule out any shenanigans with the AVR passthrough?