Superman: The Movie 4K UHD (1978)

[Torgon]

Picked this up from Target. Got this and pre-ordered Lion King using 10% Veterans Day discount and 5% Red Card. Saved $8 and some change on the two. I can live with that. Superman came with a beautiful slip cover (minty fresh).

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by captainsolo

What are people using to watch this in SDR? I know a few players are supposed to do a decent conversion job but didn't know they were viable options.

I'm using an Oppo UDP-203 to my Sony KDS-60A3000 (vintage 2008). The overall picture quality (particularly gamma) is better from the Blu-ray disc than what I'm getting from converting the UHD disc to SDR and Rec. 709 color, but I had to hear the DD 5.1 track that is supposedly sourced from the original 6-track.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

The article is truly amazing. I was able to recover it using Web Archive:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030727...port/superman/

Here is the "Thau" section about the work done for the 2001 SE (5 pages)

https://web.archive.org/web/20041206...an/thau_1.html

I found a few statements by Thau to be rather astounding.

[Show spoiler]

We grabbed the original 70mm full-coat that actually had the label from the Pinewood stage on it; it had a date of November 1978. We put it up in a dubbing stage. We had Dolby down there a couple times verifying that the set up on the Dolby units, the decoding, was correct. Superman was the first film that was originally recorded in a 70mm 6-track split surround but here's the rub that no one knows about but it's the truth. They mixed in split surrounds but they did not use the surrounds very much, especially in a stereo way because it was very new and they were very scared of it. At the last second, here in America, they brought it over to do some final mastering on the 70mm and they chickened out and the film was only released with mono surround in the 70mm format. So they mixed it for stereo surround, but it was never released that way and the fact is that there wasn't much difference anyway.

Was he listening to the same 6-track that we have here on the 4k UHD disc? I find it surprisingly aggressive for 1978. The first movies where I distinctly remember being aware of sound that had left the confines of the screen were a Dolby Stereo presentation of "Star Trek II" in 1982, and a 70mm presentation of "The Right Stuff" in 1983. They were both very tame in comparison to this.

[Show spoiler]

They recorded first, the 6-track mix, then the four, then the mono mix, then the mono stems.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what would be the purpose of creating stems AFTER you've already completed the whole mix?

[Show spoiler]

With dialog it doesn't really matter that much because you normally put the dialog down in the center channel anyway. Superman was different; they actually draped it across the whole front three speakers, which really prevented us from using any of the original mix. It doesn't work that well and sounds strange. Stereo was kind of a new gadget and I think they were just playing with the new toy. Dialog is best kept in the center channel for clarity.

Aren't we missing 26 years of motion picture sound history here?


Here's another Thau interview with a point of interest.

Interview with Michael Thau

[Show spoiler]

I'm dying for [Warners] to get those discs right on "Superman I" and for everyone to hear what the "Superman I" discs really sounded like. When you hear how poor that [1978] mix sounds by today's standards, how brittle it sounded, how many generations of dialogue that had built up because of lots of the changes they did to the [first] film. Most of the sound effects were optically recorded sound effects. Optical. Not even mags. They were on mags. They were using mag at the time but a lot of the sound effects that people had in the library were recorded optically. A lot of the big impact sound effects - explosions or something big breaking what they really were, were big wood rips recorded optically with distortion in them or electric sparks. I mean, I am anxious for everyone to hear that original mix.

And here's one more interview regarding the "Thau mix" from someone who was involved other than Thau.

Inside Surroundpro - flying high on krypton

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by captainsolo

What are people using to watch this in SDR? I know a few players are supposed to do a decent conversion job but didn't know they were viable options.

A PC with MPC+MadVR (plus a special blu-ray drive, early firmware plus a piece of special software) can do that (some titles are very tough though like King Kong and would take very detailed custom tweaking to look normal not too many are that tricky though to come out totally weird)

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

Maybe I'm missing something, but what would be the purpose of creating stems AFTER you've already completed the whole mix?

Basically an archival version of discrete elements (dialogue/sfx/music).

You guys can also see how the "original" soundtracks there are usually the 70MM versions, mixed first - then the 2.0 (4-track) comes after.

[Geoff D]

And would I take a 2.0 OG mix versus nothing OG at all? You bet your sweet patootie I would.

[edit]

then there's this from the Thau interview:

There really isn't much of a difference in the 6-track or 4, except in volume and bass.

[KC-Technerd]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Basically an archival version of discrete elements (dialogue/sfx/music).

Yes, but what future value would monaural discreet elements have been considered to have in 1978? The only thing I can think of is that possibly they considered the monaural full mix they created for the theaters might for some reason not be suitable for a later television broadcast requiring remixing from the stems, but that still seems like a long shot. I always assumed that full mixes were made from stems, so I would understand archiving them in that case because they'd already exist as parts used to assemble the full mix and allow for revising the final full mix if necessary, but if you already have a full final mix without making stems first?

[fighthefutureofhd]

I started watching this last night (fell asleep through it as always). So far what I saw looked AMAZING. The Krypton suits were bright as ever. It actually hurt my eyes to look at them. The blue and yellow blanket thingy in baby Kal-El's ship was just as equally bright. The soft look was just as it was theatrically and nothing looked overly sharp or DNR'd. I thought the Atmos mix was really, really good. I only have one problem so far. I found the audio on the opening credits very subdued. The gorgeous score was hard to hear over the "WHOOSING" effect. I'm not sure I like that. Other than that, I'm highly impressed with this transfer so far. Warner has done it again.

Originally Posted by Optimus

Who pissed in your cereal?

I was just eating cereal when I read that. I had to stop for a minute.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by captainsolo

What are people using to watch this in SDR? I know a few players are supposed to do a decent conversion job but didn't know they were viable options.

The Panasonic 820 or 9000 are by far the best players out there for this.

[punisher]

Originally Posted by Optimus

Who pissed in your cereal?

geoff did....

if he can pick apart movies and whine, I can pick apart and criticize his posts

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by KC-Technerd

Yes, but what future value would monaural discreet elements have been considered to have in 1978? The only thing I can think of is that possibly they considered the monaural full mix they created for the theaters might for some reason not be suitable for a later television broadcast requiring remixing from the stems, but that still seems like a long shot. I always assumed that full mixes were made from stems, so I would understand archiving them in that case because they'd already exist as parts used to assemble the full mix and allow for revising the final full mix if necessary, but if you already have a full final mix without making stems first?

Separate dialogue, music, and SFX stems have a variety of uses, such as for promotional materials and foreign language dubbing. Not sure how it worked in 1978, but nowadays, the stems that are part of the "deliverables" package are made from the final full mix. That means they (should) retain all the mixing/editing decisions of the final soundtrack for the film or TV show.

[y2jman]

well I got great news movies was shipped around 9:07 this morning best buy now just waiting for tracking number come up I hope get it next few days i'll let you guys know when it does

now this is behind me I can move on

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BNex99

Separate dialogue, music, and SFX stems have a variety of uses, such as for promotional materials and foreign language dubbing. Not sure how it worked in 1978, but nowadays, the stems that are part of the "deliverables" package are made from the final full mix. That means they (should) retain all the mixing/editing decisions of the final soundtrack for the film or TV show.

And, as was said by Thau, the audio for STM was continuously worked on with dubs on top of dubs so it's no wonder the final recorded stems ended up as mono.

But with all due respect to the man I actually cringed when I read his reasoning as to why they ignored the panning 70mm dialogue, that it was because stereo was a new toy and that dialogue sounds better coming from the centre. The first assertion is questionable at best - I'm guessing he wasn't aware of plenty of 70mm movies made well before STM that had directional dialogue across the fronts? - and the second is purely a question of taste. Directional dialogue 4life

[punisher]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And, as was said by Thau, the audio for STM was continuously worked on with dubs on top of dubs so it's no wonder the final recorded stems ended up as mono.

But with all due respect to the man I actually cringed when I read his reasoning as to why they ignored the panning 70mm dialogue, that it was because stereo was a new toy and that dialogue sounds better coming from the centre. The first assertion is questionable at best - I'm guessing he wasn't aware of plenty of 70mm movies made well before STM that had directional dialogue across the fronts? - and the second is purely a question of taste. Directional dialogue 4life

and you cringed because you are an expert in this field correct? and you are guessing?....such an authority on everything never guesses. You are assuming, perhaps he did and chose not to.

[Win Slow]

Lost my mind on Thursday running from Target to Target who each said they had 3-4 copies in stock but neither had one. So i said screw that sh*t and ordered it from Walmart. The movie came in today and i grabbed it while out for lunch so i am primed & ready to see this movie on yet another format tonight !

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But with all due respect to the man I actually cringed when I read his reasoning as to why they ignored the panning 70mm dialogue, that it was because stereo was a new toy and that dialogue sounds better coming from the centre. The first assertion is questionable at best - I'm guessing he wasn't aware of plenty of 70mm movies made well before STM that had directional dialogue across the fronts? - and the second is purely a question of taste. Directional dialogue 4life

He was aware, but in 2000 they were remixing those older films and centering the dialogue because that was the mixing practice at the time - keep dialogue centered because the differences in timbre between the r/l and center channels, not to mention the narrower soundstage in "shoebox" movie theaters and home setups. With SDDS-8 and now Atmos they have additional speakers in the left center & right center so dialogue panning (in Atmos dialogue can be a discrete object) isn't much of a problem anymore. The new Atmos mix is based on Thau's mix so the dialogue keeps centered but if they had the tech back in 2000 they might have retained the directionality.

[ROSS.T.G.]

That’s random...

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by y2jman

going to watch

[Show spoiler]

Uh...wrong thread?

[GKintz]

Originally Posted by punisher

and you cringed because you are an expert in this field correct? and you are guessing?....such an authority on everything never guesses. You are assuming, perhaps he did and chose not to.

Geoff didn't assume. Contrary to Thau's comment, multi-channel stereo in film was not a "new toy" in 1978. Nor was the practice of directional dialog which had been in used with multi-channel film mixes starting in the the early 1950's. It also 'is' a question of taste, as some recent titles still utilize occasions of directional dialog mixing, and like many of the titles done long before Superman, can be done quite effectively.

[ltb2.0]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Uh...wrong thread?

Pinewood Studios is the connection here.