Speaker cable lifters?...is anyone doing this?

[liquidice]

ok, so I'm looking forward to some feedback from a few select individuals on this forum who really seem to know their stuff. I'm not gonna name names, but I always look forward to their feedback. So I stumbled across this forum about lifting your speaker cables off the floor, and will supposedly improve your sound. One person went into detail to say his midrange was fuller, and his tweeter produced more details. Can this be true? Time to crumple up my wire management plans and start over! EDIT: yes, this is for real, a simple search of "lift speaker cables off floor" will turn you onto piles of info about this procedure.

[Ofcrlunchbox14]

is this for real?

[Big Daddy]

Cables that lie on a carpet are subject to increased capacitance and static electricity. In dry areas like California, this is a major problem. Evertime I walk on the floor and touch a metallic surface, I get zapped.

Others claim that cables that lie on hardwood floor or tiles are subject to heavy floor vibration that may result in distortion.

Cable lifters may help. I don't believe they offer any additional sonic benefit.

There are threads from other forums that discuss cable lifters:
http://www.audionervosa.com/index.php?topic=1038.0
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/arc...hp/t-1030.html

You can make DIY lifters. They will be a lot cheaper.

[mdabb]

Some people also use them to relieve the stress heavy speaker cables can have on the speaker's binding posts and/or amps.

[VinnAY]

I'd bet that you'd need an oscilliscope or similar measuring device to hear improvement. If any. While it could be beneficial, are your ears really going to hear any difference? And not just the placebo affect either.

[fronn]

The amount if static electricity in a carpet is not going to going to be able to pass through any sufficiently shielded PVC cable jacket.

This is the type of stuff that just makes audiophiles look like loons.

The placebo affect is very powerful, especially after spending hundreds or thousands of dollars.

[Pelican170]

Originally Posted by fronn

The amount if static electricity in a carpet is not going to going to be able to pass through any sufficiently shielded PVC cable jacket.

This is the type of stuff that just makes audiophiles look like loons.

The placebo affect is very powerful, especially after spending hundreds or thousands of dollars.

I agree. Besides, usually for something to gain static electricity, it has to rub against the carpet, like when you walk. the wires typically stay in place and dont produce static, at least thats what i would think...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by fronn

The amount if static electricity in a carpet is not going to going to be able to pass through any sufficiently shielded PVC cable jacket.

This is the type of stuff that just makes audiophiles look like loons.

The placebo affect is very powerful, especially after spending hundreds or thousands of dollars.

I am not advocating that anyone should buy cable lifters and I question their benefit. However, you need to understand the science behind the argument. The PVC insulator around the cable is the cause of capacitance.

Capacitance occurs by the insulator around the conductor. In amplifiers, capacitance is a desirable property. In cables, some of the electrons passing through the cable or from static electricity is transferred to the insulator and stored as energy. When they are released back into the conductor, it may cause a deteriorationin of the sound quality.

The type of insulator has a direct effect on capacitance. Most insulator are PVC, Polyethylene, Polypropylene, and Teflon. Teflon is the best, but it is a difficult material to work with. That is one reason why cables that use Teflon are normally more expensive.

Impedance is the combination of resitance, inductance, and capacitance. Some amplifiers are more sensitive to the load impedance of the speaker wires. The reason is because the higher the output impedance of the amplifier, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are more sensitive to cables than solid state amplifiers because they have higher output impedances.

[aramis109]

Speaking of PVC and static electricity reminds me of the Mythbusters episode where they were trying to produce a "deadly static shock" using PVC and couldn't get ANYTHING off of it. Wish I knew the title of the episode.

As with anything, the worth of this mod is in the eye of the beholder. I will say that I think it looks ridiculous, regardless of any gains it may or may not have.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Speaking of PVC and static electricity reminds me of the Mythbusters episode where they were trying to produce a "deadly static shock" using PVC and couldn't get ANYTHING off of it. Wish I knew the title of the episode.

As with anything, the worth of this mod is in the eye of the beholder. I will say that I think it looks ridiculous, regardless of any gains it may or may not have.

PVC does not create static electricity. However, it does have the ability to store some energy (capacitance).

[VinnAY]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

blah blah blah...FART

*relax it's just a joke

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

PVC does not create static electricity. However, it does have the ability to store some energy (capacitance).

Well, that's what they were trying to do, basically. Again, I watched it for entertainment value so really wasn't paying attention to the science behind it, but the end result was that PVC pipe wasn't able to store much at all.

[Intamin]

I guess if I honestly had no where else left to upgrade in my system, I would look into getting those little cable risers, but to be honest I think this stuff is just snake oil. I can't imagine them making a noticeable, if any, improvement on the sound.

[fronn]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I am not advocating that anyone should buy cable lifters and I question their benefit. However, you need to understand the science behind the argument. The PVC insulator around the cable is the cause of capacitance.

Capacitance occurs by the insulator around the conductor. In amplifiers, capacitance is a desirable property. In cables, some of the electrons passing through the cable or from static electricity is transferred to the insulator and stored as energy. When they are released back into the conductor, it may cause a deteriorationin of the sound quality.

The type of insulator has a direct effect on capacitance. Most insulator are PVC, Polyethylene, Polypropylene, and Teflon. Teflon is the best, but it is a difficult material to work with. That is one reason why cables that use Teflon are normally more expensive.

Impedance is the combination of resitance, inductance, and capacitance. Some amplifiers are more sensitive to the load impedance of the speaker wires. The reason is because the higher the output impedance of the amplifier, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are more sensitive to cables than solid state amplifiers because they have higher output impedances.

Except... pretty much everything has capacitance. A PVC or better jacket is going to have a truly negligible amount of capacitance. You're talking picofarads -- the simple fact that you are using a transfer mechanism of several feet is going to be disruptive to some immeasurable extent. To say a cable floating in the air is going to help things is simply hogwash.

This is another case where people put importance on things that don't deserve it -- time and money are better spent elsewhere in their system... certainly for those that come to this forum for audio advice.

I'd be willing to bet people would be surprised what kind of shit electrolytic or cheap polyprope capacitors and iron/steel core or tiny gauge air core inductors are in their speakers to begin with (and the audible differences there are very hard to notice for most people). I doubt many here have opened their several hundred/thousand dollar speakers to find out what's in there -- you'll be surprised the type of low budget stuff is put inside... far more worrisome than a few picofarads worth of capacitance in the jacket of a cable.

I hope that didn't seem like I was attacking you or anything... I realize you were merely trying to give the possible "other side" of the situation and I appreciate it (gives me a stepping stool to hop on my soap box!). :P

[Driver_King]

Of the thousands of things you could do to make even a noticeable (if even small) difference in sound, why would you turn to expensive cable risers? You should get THX certified doors before you do that.

[Big Daddy]

For the third and last time, I am not in favor of cable risers and I do not believe that they make much of an improvement. However, it is important to understand that capacitance in very long runs of speaker wires is real, but I don't believe that they make a significant deterioration in sound quality.

For the benefit of people who do not remember their High School Physics, here is a summary:

A capacitor consists of two conducting plates separated by an insulating layer called a dielectric. When a capacitor is connected to an AC voltage source, the voltage forces electrons onto the surface of one plate and pulls electrons off the surface of the other plate resulting in a potential difference between the plates.

Dielectric materials (insulators) are rated based upon their ability to support electrostatic energy by a number called a dielectric constant. The dielectric constant of a vacuum is 1.0 and is considered to be the best.

Material, Dielectric Constant
Vacuum, 1.0
Air, 1.00059
Teflon, 2.0
Petroleum, 2.0
Polypropylene, 2.1
Polystyrene, 2.5
Polycarbonate, 2.9
Plexiglass, 3.12
Polyester, 3.2
PVC, 3.39
Paper, 3.5
Glass, 4.0–8.5
Mica, 5.4-8.0
Ceramics, 6 to several thousand
Aluminum oxide, 7.0
Flint glass, 9.9
Methyl alcohol, 35.0
Glycerin 56.2
Pure water, 81.0

The capacitance of a capacitor is affected by three factors:

1. The area of the plates.
2. The distance between the plates.
3. The dielectric constant of the material between the plates.

Larger plates provide greater capacity to store electric charge. Therefore, as the area of the plates increase, capacitance increases.

Capacitance is directly proportional to the electrostatic force field between the plates. This field is stronger when the plates are closer together. Therefore, as the distance between the plates decreases, capacitance increases.

The ability of the dielectric to support electrostatic forces is directly proportional to the dielectric constant. Therefore, as the dielectric constant increases, capacitance increases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electrom...pacitance.html
http://www.physics.unc.edu/about/lab...apacitance.pdf
http://www.answers.com/topic/capacitor

[Driver_King]

Big Daddy, I hope you know I wasn't talking to you, right?

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Driver_King

Big Daddy, I hope you know I wasn't talking to you, right?

I know you weren't. My job is make sure the science is correct and both sides are presented.

Is capacitance real? Of course, it is. Is it a significant problem? I haven't done any lab experiments, but my guess is that most of us cannot hear any deterioration in sound quality.

Do cable risers help? I have heard people swear on both sides of the isle.

I put a lot of effort in trying to simplify complicated matters and present them in a simple and easy-to-understand language. When I get a post like #11, I don't appreciate it. I don't owe anything to anyone. It looks like I am wasting my time with most people.

[Driver_King]

Most people appreciate your help, including myself. Don't worry about it. People are just trying to mess around. No harm intended. I certainly have not ever said anything purposefully that would upset you or prove you wrong. I wasn't arguing with any statement actually. I was just stating my opinion.

[fronn]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I know you weren't. My job is make sure the science is correct and both sides are presented.

Is capacitance real? Of course, it is. Is it a significant problem? I haven't done any lab experiments, but my guess is that most of us cannot hear any deterioration in sound quality.

Do cable risers help? I have heard people swear on both sides of the isle.

I put a lot of effort in trying to simplify complicated matters and present them in a simple and easy-to-understand language. When I get a post like #11, I don't appreciate it. I don't owe anything to anyone. It looks like I am wasting my time with most people.

I don't know if you were responding to me, as I didn't see any other posts after mine to cause another response, but I don't see why it garnered a response.

I don't think anyone is trying to debate whether or not PVC is going to have some amount of capacitance. What I'm saying is that amount is going to be so tiny as to never amount to anything. The cable is sitting still and static charges don't move through carpet very well. If the cable was constantly rubbing the carpet or something, then you may have some measurable amount (though still in the range of picofarads, I'd be willing to bet). I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing either, I'm just clarifying because I feel like your response was partially directed at me for some reason.

Capacitance is measured in Farads as I'm sure you are well aware... to affect the response curve of the sound a speaker produces to any measurable extent (say .05 db - far from something you can hear), you'd still need several thousand picofarads worth of capacitance between the source and the speaker. Capacitors roll off low end frequencies depending on their capacitance (generally in speakers it's .1 to 100 microfarads), so even at .01 microfarads you're likely losing some tiny amount of db in the 1-5hz range (like less than .1db).

The potential problem would lie in how "dirty" of a capacitor the "pvc capacitor" would be (assuming that it's capacitance is actually influencing the signal in the copper somehow...). That is why I brought up that people should be more concerned with capacitors in their speakers, as they're probably not all that fantastic and relatively cheap upgrades if they are worried about capacitance (or inductance) related sound issues ($5-20 per capacitor can make a considerable difference over what's in typical consumer speakers; there's also capacitors in the several hundred dollar range too to cater to those who have already raised their cables off the ground).

If I've made some mistake somewhere, feel free to correct me -- I'm not formally educated, nor employed in the speaker industry (though I enjoy building speakers and learning about the science behind them).