8K discussion thread

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

No it has not. You need at least a 12 bit video signal from the source (in the case of consumer media today, only a full Dolby Vision encode - FEL or Full Enhancement Layer - can do 12 bit) and a video processor capable of at least 12 bit video data handling.


Dolby had originally published a paper that 12 bit or higher video pixel depth would help overcome HDR's tendency to exacerbate banding artifacts. 10 bit was inadequate.


Of course, the BDA and the ATSC 3.0 committee promptly said "screw that" and went with 10 bit instead with only Dolby Vision FEL - as mentioned above - being allowed to encode in 12 bit using a core + enhancement layer mechanism on UHD Blu-ray.

When you have an OPTIONAL feature... studios will rarely if ever use it. If 12 bit with higher ICtCp chroma subsampling source encoding had been MANDATORY rather than 10 bit, 4:2:0 with older chroma encoding... things might have been different.

Great point FilmFreakosaurus! But a 12 bit level of signal encoding can easily be implemented in 4k video to achieve the complete ELIMINATION of color banding, as that ultimate video guru, Joe Kane, has often pointed out.

And Mr Kane, the very man who was responsible for developing the exact video display parameters that professionals use to properly calibrate 4k & HD displays to achieve their top performance, has said that employing 8k for use in our home theaters, or living rooms, is an absolutely insane waste unless 8k displays would also bring with them, some breakthrough, or breakthroughs, in areas of video performance, apart from a mere increase in resolution.

But with OLED tech, for example, already having brought the breakthrough of achieving true black, it seems TV manufacturers are just likely to be throwing 8k displays onto the market, which bring us no major advances, other than the resolution increase. Well, at least the increase to 8k resolution will mean that folks who can enjoy watching TV from between 4 feet, down to 2 feet from 65 inch displays, will be deriving some real advantage from having an 8k TV.

[HDTV1080P]

When native 8K optical discs, broadcasts, satellite TV, cable TV, and streaming happen, then I will become really interested in 8K.

If optical media is still around then most likely 8K optical discs would launch around the year 2026, maybe 8K streaming a few years before.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Just want to remind everyone that the new 8K TVs are not just about the increased resolution. The real story about the new 8K TVs are the upgraded video processors, premium and exclusive panels and the largest screen sizes.

Robert, with regards to the real story to yielding a better image, the problem with that is 4K tv proponents (and likely what is fueling the current animosity of 4K tv owners toward manufacturers, no matter the brand selling 8K tvs) is that said 4K tv owners will ask something akin to –

“Then why not put the upgraded video processors in the next 4K tv that I plan on buying….along with a more ‘premium’ 4K panel.”

To which, to be fair to the consumer, thee only legitimate response I can see coming from the manufacturers in order to avoid the appearance of a greedy money grab is –

“Well, the processors only work well with 8K screens” which, true or false, really is the crux of the matter - are 8K panels a necessary ingredient in the chain to a superior picture, or not?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....I'll say that higher nits TVs and content have produced an evolution in the thinking on the matter as to causes for increased picture quality seen with modern day televisions. Later when I have more time I’ll see if I can hunt down a layperson’s article on the 120 observer scientific study by Park et al. as I am brand agnostic.

^ here -> https://pid.samsungdisplay.com/en/pr...-8k-resolution

The science ^ is credible. What I have trouble with and am admittedly skeptical about, at least at this time, is the phrase in the Conclusion - “substantial value”. To be fair to Professor Park, I find it difficult to believe that she actually wrote that as I have red her Conclusion about hyperrealism with a smaller number of observers which is more conservative as written in the peer reviewed scientific SID journal and I think maybe somebody from marketing composed that, dare I say, bold claim, but I guess one’s minimal is another’s “substantial” and I’m open minded and hope that maybe with the 2nd or 3rd generation models this value assessment comes to fruition especially as machine learning upscaling improves.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Robert, with regards to the real story to yielding a better image, the problem with that is 4K tv proponents (and likely what is fueling the current animosity of 4K tv owners toward manufacturers, no matter the brand selling 8K tvs) is that said 4K tv owners will ask something akin to –

“Then why not put the upgraded video processors in the next 4K tv that I plan on buying….along with a more ‘premium’ 4K panel.”

To which, to be fair to the consumer, thee only legitimate response I can see coming from the manufacturers in order to avoid the appearance of a greedy money grab is –

“Well, the processors only work well with 8K screens” which, true or false, really is the crux of the matter - are 8K panels a necessary ingredient in the chain to a superior picture, or not?

There was some discussion on what the AI is doing with the upscaling in TechRadar article - Here's the secret behind 8K AI upscaling technology compared to earlier interpolation algorithms.

The math behind upscaling

In the face of these issues, TV programmers taught their TVs to analyze and digitally process the images in real time to fill in or repair missing or damaged pixels. And they accomplished this using mathematical functions, which you can tell your loved ones the next time they say that too much TV rots your brain.

Specifically, engineers taught the TV processor to interpolate what each missing pixel’s color value should be, based on its surrounding pixels. To do so, it had to define its kernel: the function that assigns color priority to a pixel’s neighbors, based on their proximity.

The most basic kernel used in TVs is nearest neighbor kerneling, which simply calculates which pixel is nearest a vacant pixel and pastes the same color data into the empty pixel. This method causes the picture to take on a blocky zig-zag pattern, or aliasing, with poor edging. Picture a black letter “A” on a white screen; a missing pixel just outside the letter may be filled in as black, while a pixel on the edge of the letter could display as white. The result will either be a gray blob around the letter or a jagged staircase of black and white going up and down.

This chart shows the process for calculating an empty pixel (the green “P” dot) based on bilinear interpolation.

Bilinear interpolation requires more processing power but is more effective. In this method the blank pixel is compared against the nearest two neighbors to form a linear gradient between them, sharpening the image. This produces smoother visuals but can be inconsistent. So other TVs use bicubic interpolation, which pulls from the 16 nearest pixels in all directions. While this method is most likely to get the color as close to accurate as possible, it also typically produces a much more blurry picture, with edges taking on a distracting halo effect.

You can likely guess the problem already: these TVs fill in pixels based on mathematical formulas that are statistically most likely to produce accurate visuals, but have no way to interpret how they’re thematically supposed to look based on what’s actually on the screen.

AI upscaling: the new normal?

Samsung isn’t the only TV manufacturer that currently uses artificial intelligence and image restoration for its TVs.

Sony’s 4K ad page goes into obsessive detail about its AI image processing solutions. Its new 4K TVs contain processors with a “dual database” of “tens of thousands” of image references that “dynamically improv[e] pixels in real time”.

LG also announced ahead of CES 2019 that its new a9 Gen 2 TV chip would feature image processing and machine learning to improve noise reduction and brightness—in part by analyzing the source and type of media and adjusting its algorithm accordingly.

Beyond the AI elements, however, it seems as though these TV processors do still depend somewhat on automated algorithms. When we previously interviewed Gavin McCarron, Technical Marketing & Product Planning Manager at Sony Europe, about the AI image processing in Sony TVs, he had this to say:

"When you're upscaling from Full HD to 4K there is a lot of guesswork, and what we're trying to do it to remove as much of the guesswork as possible. [Our processor] doesn't just look at the pixel in isolation, it looks at the pixels around it, and on each diagonal, and also it will look up the pixels across multiple frames, to give a consistency in the picture quality.”

Sony, along with LG and Samsung, very likely use some form of bilateral or bicubic algorithm as its baseline upscaling system. Then they analyze the near-4K content and determine which pixels should be augmented with image processing and which should be deleted as noise.

In that sense, most TV manufacturers are relatively close to one another in the AI upscaling race. The exception is Samsung, which uses the same techniques but fills in four times the number of missing pixels to fit an 8K screen. We’ll have to wait and see if other manufacturers’ AI efforts will allow them to leap into the 8K market as well.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Robert, with regards to the real story to yielding a better image, the problem with that is 4K tv proponents (and likely what is fueling the current animosity of 4K tv owners toward manufacturers, no matter the brand selling 8K tvs) is that said 4K tv owners will ask something akin to –

“Then why not put the upgraded video processors in the next 4K tv that I plan on buying….along with a more ‘premium’ 4K panel.”

To which, to be fair to the consumer, thee only legitimate response I can see coming from the manufacturers in order to avoid the appearance of a greedy money grab is –

“Well, the processors only work well with 8K screens” which, true or false, really is the crux of the matter - are 8K panels a necessary ingredient in the chain to a superior picture, or not?

What matters is not why, but that it's the way it is. The best and most powerful video processors, the best display panels and the largest screen sizes are reserved for the new 8K series. So like it or not, if you want the best video performance and or largest screen size TV it's one of the new 8K models.

To directly answer your question; two of the premium 8K TV manufacturer's engineers and product development specialists told me is that they want to differentiate the 8K class and give buyers a reason to upgrade to an 8K TV. I also believe you are correct that 8K displays need the upgraded video processors to delver the best possible 8K image, especially when viewing low grade video on the ultra large 8K screens.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

What matters is not why, but that it's the way it is.....

That’s a bit cold don’t you think? By so visibly brandishing the 8K in the logo, promotions, etc. of these newest TVs, some might view it as TV manufacturers using the science behind the name (the actual importance of 8K pixel density) in a deceitful manner, i.e. abusing science…..when if it is true that manufacturers were able to produce an image of equal quality if the playing field were truly level and they used the best processors and premium panels also for 4K televisions.

Ethically, I think many would prefer that we truly require the 8K in 8K televisions


rather than it being contrived; otherwise, knowledgeable videophiles just won’t be able to trust the technical explanations nor essentially the marketing of spokespersons for TV manufacturers with this or future endeavors.

Anyway, be that as it may, we need some Value Electronics 4K/8K shootouts of various size TVs for proof of value before we move onto exclusive 8K TV only shootouts…..rather than anecdotal experiences by a handful of 8K TV believers or skeptics.

[JohnAV]

^ Isn’t the TV manufacturers being a bit contrived with 8k? It’s like the car is ready to be driven, but there is no highway, and no destinations to visit. I was thinking also about the confusion of not properly differentiating native 8k with these TV’s versus AI assisted image upscaling and identifying it as 8k. With pre-native 4K content we referred the source doing HD up scaling to 4k as 4Kx2K. What is LG, Sony, and Samsung doing to identify the difference, instead of pitching 8k displays as here it is?

Example from Sony

This is Sony 8K, a truly authentic experience

Step into the world of Sony 8K, exclusively powered by our acclaimed X1™ Ultimate processor. Enjoy immersive big screen entertainment with four times the resolution of 4K and high brightness specially developed for 8K. Pictures are rich in depth, texture and detail, filling your field of view with unparalleled realism.

[Geoff D]

Eh, Sony were lying about 4K when there was no 4K content as well. They heavily implied that their 'Mi4K' Blu-ray discs were actual 4K in a promo leaflet they were giving out at the time, I complained to Trading Standards and Sony changed the wording.

[DJR662]

Oh well, it doesn't really matter anymore I think.

Like Robert said, and I actually have accepted this some time ago, if you want a truly high end premium set, you're very likely to end up with an 8K model whether you like/need it or not. I (still) don't like it and I certainly don't think I need 8K, but what can you do?

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks DJR662, you said it better than I did!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DJR662

if you want a truly high end premium set, you're very likely to end up with an 8K model

when proven, like so -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Anyway, be that as it may, we need some Value Electronics 4K/8K shootouts of various size TVs for proof of value before we move onto exclusive 8K TV only shootouts…..rather than anecdotal experiences by a handful of 8K TV believers or skeptics.

or, with another independently hosted (Vincent Teoh, etc.) 4K/8K shootout

if you define "high end premium" as superior in PQ

[Robert Zohn]

We're considering an evaluation event with the three premium manufacturers 8K TVs and Sony's 77" 4K A9G OLED as it was the winner of the 2019 4K HDR TV Shootout.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

We're considering an evaluation event with the three premium manufacturers 8K TVs and Sony's 77" 4K A9G OLED as it was the winner of the 2019 4K HDR TV Shootout.

and if in head to head competition with the same size and type 4K TV, the 8K TV unequivocally wins….then that begs the next question from discerning buyers –

At what size is an 8K tv significantly better than a 4K tv? As small as 65” or not?

[Robert Zohn]

Of course, you know this, but the viewing distance is one of the major factors.

In addition to that we'll be evaluating all of the picture quality elements.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Of course, you know this, but the viewing distance is one of the major factors.....

certainly, but as I said before, despite humans’ eyes not having changed over the past decade, the thinking on this has evolved –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

if you’re a Sony fan consider even Toshi from Sony’s TV division has doubled his viewing distance recommendation for 8K tvs since those olden times about which you speak.

so who knows at what distance with modern televisions?
anyway, I think that one way to set it up to provide practical real world results would be to first send out a correspondence/question to all your shootout attendees, or perhaps, better yet, for a larger sample to all your clients asking them how far they currently sit from their TVs in their home theater rooms/family rooms and at the very least set up the evaluation at that screen-to-eye distance in your shootout as the consensus is that whenever consumers buy a new television they rarely rearrange their furniture/seating distance

P.S.
Or perhaps do a seating distance poll on this forum asking Americans who live in homes (rather than apartments, which may skew the data) how far they currently sit from their TVs

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks DJR662, you said it better than I did!

Hardly the sort of unequivocally positive marketing bumpf you're likely to see plastered on a billboard though, is it?

You Don't Need 8K, But You're Getting It Anyway™

[Geoff D]

In all seriousness: people could well say (and have said) the same things about 4K, fine, that it's not something we thought we ever "needed", but the advent of HDR has for me provided the single greatest leap in viewing quality I've seen in a long, long time, perhaps ever during my four decades on this planet. And yet 8K as a 'format' has **** all to do with improving HDR in itself, there's no one single benefit regarding brightness, colour, contrast, mapping etc that couldn't be done by a 4K TV using the same processing, backlighting etc as the 8K set.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

there's no one single benefit regarding brightness, colour, contrast, mapping etc that couldn't be done by a 4K TV using the same processing, backlighting etc as the 8K set.

no, we can’t know that for sure unless down the pike someday manufacturers did carryover these same upgraded processors and premium screens to their 4K tvs, which might then refute some of this study - https://pid.samsungdisplay.com/en/pr...-8k-resolution
for to be fair to the 8K side of the aisle, Professor Park is no slouch in the field of color science – https://www.ewha.ac.kr/mbs/ewhakr/js...NDE2&tab=TAB2#

I will say though, it sounds like there is a great variability in the product as I was surprised to hear this from Zink…. https://ibc.gallery.video/vod/detail...=true#t=39m20s

[PeterTHX]

Not sure why people are kvetching so much about 8K (and no actual content).

8K displays will (should) do what the early 4K displays did for 1080p - provide the best possible performance for previous format.

Yeah, there's currently no native 8K stuff to buy but 4K material should look amazing.