Screenshot Comparisons 4K

[LegacyCosts]

Originally Posted by Malt Raisins

Boom. This is exactly the issue I have. It almost is starting to feel like I need to readjust my settings for every disc I put in the player. One setting for grainy shot on film, one for clean modern digitally shot movies, one for IMAX footage, one for Blu-ray, one for dvd.

I get that the increased resolution and dynamic range inherently calls for more sensitive adjustments. For the amount of $ we’re spending on this stuff, it seems like it should be a bit more user friendly. There’s tons of people who will buy this stuff and just say “this looks like crap, what a waste!” and not bother with going to forums to ask people for help. Hell, most average consumers aren’t even aware forums like this exist.

4k UHD is like being into vinyl or gaming pcs. Its one of the least convenient hobbies possible but it is highly rewarding when your set up falls into place.

[crackedknee]

This format does need a lot more hands-on. Even HDTVs were not set right, taken straight out of the box, and you had to tweak them. Watch any TV in a bar and they just put up the TV and turned it on, the picture is super-bright, looks terrible (and usually squashed/stretched, not sure why that is so consistently done). People do the same in their homes, get used to that somehow being the norm. Then wonder why UHD looks "weird".

Even to this day, the factory settings are for over-bright and garish images, apparently to make the "pop" work in stores, and sell the units. My Sony 4K had just the worst settings, and as with most TVs I had to:
1. change all the settings, ALL of them
2. turn ON HDR
3. set each HDMI setting to work with UHD (because they were all preset at the lowest setting)
I watched one movie without HDR, I turned it off because I wasn't quite sure what was going on. But I didn't see a big difference, just a bit better definition. But that wasn't right, so I turned HDR back on, with the proper calibration in the settings, THEN I saw the huge difference. But only after I had really delved into what was going on, how and why I had to set the TV up as it is now.

Compare that to my friend who bought a "4K" TV. It does NOT have HDR even (not even that minimum, let alone DV or HDR10+). You can barely set the colors in the settings. I had a lot of trouble finding settings that worked, and the "UHD" image on that TV looks awful. In fact, it has the over-bearing grain that many here seem to mention. 4K TVs with the necessary tech are a bit cheaper and more on point lately, but I can easily believe your average "4K" TV from Black Friday could actually be sub-standard like this one.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by DJR662

...some UHD discs might seem less colorful at first when compared to their 1080p SDR counterparts, but that's only because the colors have been jacked up on the regular Blu-ray releases in order to compensate for the shortcomings of REC709 I believe.

I think this nails the issue the most. It's not TV settings because those of us with well dialed in higher-end sets always report the UHD coming across more subtle, natural and vibrant. It's too common to be just down to only some discs. It's nearly all discs but specific problematic ones which have nothing to do with the format itself but a grading choice/fault.

It's the vibrancy and the range combination which SDR can't compete with but tries to fake to very conditioned viewing experiences by many, but not accurate ones!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by lgans316

Think San Andreas looked very different on UHD to the point many preferred the BD colour timing.

Eh? The colour is more vibrant on the UHD, the BD has the usual flat yellow SDR wash to it and the shadow detail is completely nuked whereas the UHD has much richer detail in the blacks.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Malt Raisins

4K is complicated and frustrating to those of us that aren’t knowledgeable about tech stuff.

Ultra HD Blu-ray (4K) Discs and High Dynamic Range (HDR) for Dummies

I am still in the process of educating myself before I take the 4K plunge, but I am getting very close.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DJR662

In all honesty, RE Afterlife on UHD sometimes does look like it has the color sucked out of it. Not sure if this is the intended look or that perhaps something went wrong. I've only seen it once though, since I very much prefer the 3D version.

Having said that though, some UHD discs might seem less colorful at first when compared to their 1080p SDR counterparts, but that's only because the colors have been jacked up on the regular Blu-ray releases in order to compensate for the shortcomings of REC709 I believe.

Aye, to be absolutely fair the UHD of Afterlife HAS been heavily desaturated vs the BD edition, they've also raised the gamma a hell of a lot on the UHD so it crushes black like a mofo. No sir, I don't like it: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=140

BUT this is not some endemic problem to UHD in general, this is a specific case of the regrading taking the imagery in a very different direction.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Arrival (Paramount vs. Sony (IT))

Only/Major difference here is the colour. And I'm sure the Paramount got it right - that is in particular if I take the director into account. IMO the Sony got some teal treatment and boosted colours (mostly with reds which shows in the suits and skin tones - take #3, #4, #6, #36, #37 (the orange of the badge), #40 , #48 or any of the orange suit caps - the latter actually look inconsistent on the Sony AFAICT)

[Show spoiler](maybe Fox hired the same guys for Braveheart )

.

The Paramount also has the proper, burnt-in Alien subs (example in #46).

Both are @100 nits with the exact same settings. The thumbs are basically all you need here. I'd recommend the Paramount, but feel free to prefer the Sony.

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim and please ignore any off-looking colours:

[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the colour bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colours (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits; on its own they should be viewed with monitor brightness set to 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=589

Hi andreasy969, thanks for doing this! Amazing stuffs!

I have not moved to 4k UHD, no equipment yet. Will start considering when I can afford bigger TV. However, I realized that I can play 4k discs in my computer, so I started getting contents just by curiosity. I only have Arrival, Aladdin (2019), Avengers: Endgame and Blue Planet II at the moment.

I am using MPC-BE with madVR to watch them downscaled on my 1080p 65" plasma TV. I let madVR decide on the HDR settings. They all look good.

Now I love Arrival so much, so I've bought both the Paramount and the Sony releases. I agree that the Sony disc has more vibrant colors, just not as much as yours. The Sony looks like the first screenshots (left), and the Paramount has even less vibrant colors.

Besides that, my concern here is that I'm seeing wrong colors on the Sony. If you don't mind, can you take a screenshot of the following frame?



That screenshot is from this site, taken from the Paramount releases. If you look to at the student at the back on the left of the screenshot, the girl is wearing something in dull orange. This is true to my Paramount disc as well. However, on my Sony disc, it is unmistakably red. Even if I decrease the TV colour settings to close to zero, it's still red only duller.

I'm asking this because it's not that obvious in other scenes, only this lecture scene. I'm wondering if there is something wrong in my setup. I'll try to take a screenshot when I got home from work.

[birdztudio]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Eh? The colour is more vibrant on the UHD, the BD has the usual flat yellow SDR wash to it and the shadow detail is completely nuked whereas the UHD has much richer detail in the blacks.

so you mean you preferred UHD over BD, correct?

[Geoff D]

Oh yes indeedy.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by aiman04

[Show spoiler]Hi andreasy969, thanks for doing this! Amazing stuffs!

I have not moved to 4k UHD, no equipment yet. Will start considering when I can afford bigger TV. However, I realized that I can play 4k discs in my computer, so I started getting contents just by curiosity. I only have Arrival, Aladdin (2019), Avengers: Endgame and Blue Planet II at the moment.

I am using MPC-BE with madVR to watch them downscaled on my 1080p 65" plasma TV. I let madVR decide on the HDR settings. They all look good.

Now I love Arrival so much, so I've bought both the Paramount and the Sony releases. I agree that the Sony disc has more vibrant colors, just not as much as yours. The Sony looks like the first screenshots (left), and the Paramount has even less vibrant colors.

Besides that, my concern here is that I'm seeing wrong colors on the Sony. If you don't mind, can you take a screenshot of the following frame?



That screenshot is from this site, taken from the Paramount releases. If you look to at the student at the back on the left of the screenshot, the girl is wearing something in dull orange. This is true to my Paramount disc as well. However, on my Sony disc, it is unmistakably red. Even if I decrease the TV colour settings to close to zero, it's still red only duller.

I'm asking this because it's not that obvious in other scenes, only this lecture scene. I'm wondering if there is something wrong in my setup. I'll try to take a screenshot when I got home from work.

Here you go:

Paramount | Sony (both @100 nits) (didn't bother with the exact same frame from the review)


re. "only this lecture scene": I'm getting the "Sony reds" during the whole movie. Which was actually the point of my comparison (next to the teal).

Having said that: The colours may still be wrong (they aren't accurate at any rate), but with this scene in particular the image is so dark (33 resp. 35 nits) that the colours shouldn't be completely off (for all I know) and a difference just has to be there (and I'm getting basically the same difference with my Panasonic player).

re. madVR: I don't claim to be the last word in "proper madVR caps" nor did I implement it (so what madVR does is completely out of my control). And there is no "right" here anyway. But the tone mapping options (with static target nits) have been reduced a lot by now anyway. So you can't do that much wrong anymore anyway IMHO (unless you manually select clipping for ex - which usually isn't a very good idea to put it mildly).

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Here you go:

Paramount | Sony (both @100 nits) (didn't bother with the exact same frame from the review)

[Show spoiler]

re. "only this lecture scene": I'm getting the "Sony reds" during the whole movie. Which was actually the point of my comparison (next to the teal).

Having said that: The colours may still be wrong (they aren't accurate at any rate), but with this scene in particular the image is so dark (33 resp. 35 nits) that the colours shouldn't be completely off (for all I know) and a difference just has to be there (and I'm getting basically the same difference with my Panasonic player).

re. madVR: I don't claim to be the last word in "proper madVR caps" nor did I implement it (so what madVR does is completely out of my control). And there is no "right" here anyway. But the tone mapping options (with static target nits) have been reduced a lot by now anyway. So you can't do that much wrong anymore anyway IMHO (unless you manually select clipping for ex - which usually isn't a very good idea to put it mildly).

Thank you so much! That's what I'm seeing on my Sony disc as well, I'm relieved that I'm not the only one. I agree it's in the whole movie, but this particular scene stands out more for me. The other scenes are just like from red to redder, but this scene it seems to go from orange to red, like a whole different color. I wonder if it's gotten Denis/Bradford's approval.

Ah yes, I'm total newbie about HTPC, let alone madVR lol. I'm just starting to test with all the settings. I must say I'm impressed, even with default settings it's actually looking a lot better than my physical player. Even better than what I've seen from the Oppo players. I've now decided to invest more and build a full fledged HTPC instead. There are so much you can do with it, all the algorithms are so cool. The hideous banding that I can't do anything about it with my player, now pretty much disappear only with low debanding settings.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by aiman04

[Show spoiler]Thank you so much! That's what I'm seeing on my Sony disc as well, I'm relieved that I'm not the only one. I agree it's in the whole movie, but this particular scene stands out more for me. The other scenes are just like from red to redder, but this scene it seems to go from orange to red, like a whole different color. I wonder if it's gotten Denis/Bradford's approval.

Ah yes, I'm total newbie about HTPC, let alone madVR lol. I'm just starting to test with all the settings. I must say I'm impressed, even with default settings it's actually looking a lot better than my physical player. Even better than what I've seen from the Oppo players. I've now decided to invest more and build a full fledged HTPC instead. There are so much you can do with it, all the algorithms are so cool

. The hideous banding that I can't do anything about it with my player, now pretty much disappear only with low debanding settings.

You're welcome. I cannot really say that madVR does a better job than my Panasonic player though. That's in regard to the colours in particular. With bright colours, I actually still think that Panasonic does the better job. Current example would be John Wick 3. Looks somewhat off to my eyes on the PC, but looked completely fine to me via player. But then again, it's hard to say without comparing directly (also because of projector vs monitor).

re. banding: Let me guess: Do you happen to own a Mediatek player? That's basically all players except for Panasonic and includes Oppo. I had a Sony X800 first, which gave me really terrible banding with SDR playback (disc was Batman vs Superman and here the fades during the opening right from the start, but it basically really happened all the time). I returned it immediately, bought a Panasonic and the banding was completely gone (mind you that I also tried all settings with the Sony, but the banding always remained). So if I'm right, you might just want to consider another player for SDR playback.

[andreasy969]

Brave

The real highlight with Brave is Merida's hair. It looks just wonderful and the BD often becomes a "fuzzy mess" in comparison (hyperbole, but I think you'll see what I mean) - #11, #13, #19 - you name it. I guess the hair is also the reason why this ended up having so many caps - it looks lovely throughout and I wanted make it very clear that it's not only on occasion.

It's also not only Merida's hair as you can see in #18 or #27 for ex.

As with all the Pixars, the colours look much better in general now and the BD often really looks kinda ugly in comparison (#24 being a prime example). Highlights are improved as well (you'll see by just browsing through the thumbs, but take #6/#7, #39 and #45/#46 as maybe the best examples). The scene from #51 onward I really wanted to show as well - it looks so much better on the UHD. Same goes for candles (take #58), torches and fire (you'll find those yourself).

The outdoor scene from #29 onward is brighter than most of the rest and is the reason for the additional caps with those (mainly because of the colours).

BD (upscaled) | UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits)

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim and please ignore any off-looking colours:

[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the colour bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colours (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits; on its own they should be viewed with monitor brightness set to 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=589

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

21.

22.

23.

24.

25.

26.

27.

28.

29. (#3 414 nits)

30. (#3 432 nits)

31. (#3 414 nits)

32. (#3 419 nits)

33. (#3 432 nits)

34. (#3 518 nits)

35.

36.

37.

38.

39. (#3 285 nits)

40.

41.

42.

43.

44.

45.

46. (#3 285 nits)

47.

48.

49.

50.

51.

52.

53.

54.

55.

56.

57.

58.

59.

60.

61.

[Mandalorian]

Ehhh, it's one of my favorite (and oddly underrated) Pixar movies. Great comparison, andreasy.

[imhh1]

Spider-Man Far from home UHD-BD vs 1080pBD

https://slowpics.org/comparison/bdb4...2-e7779f7804ff


HDR10 vs Dolby Vision
https://slowpics.org/comparison/ff49...d-368a0df1b346
*OLED, Black Room, Same player, Same picture settings, Tripod pictures, Bluetooth triggering.




The Shining UHD-BD vs 1080pBD

https://slowpics.org/comparison/876d...9-ffedf5de92e7



HDR10 vs Dolby Vision
https://slowpics.org/comparison/af32...a-375b1b2130e9
*OLED, Black Room, Same player, Same picture settings, Tripod pictures, Bluetooth triggering.




Gremlins UHD-BD vs 1080pBD

https://slowpics.org/comparison/4614...2-8becad4fd5bb



American Psycho

HDR10 vs Dolby Vision
https://slowpics.org/comparison/fd31...2-700fa5784de8
*OLED, Black Room, Same player, Same picture settings, Tripod pictures, Bluetooth triggering.



madVR settings:

[Show spoiler]

[andreasy969]

Thor

So I did buy the 2 Thors after all. Don't ask why. Guess I wanted to see it for myself. But I could basically re-insert my Iron Man comment here - IMO the disc is a DNR mess throughout which just ruins it (for me that is).

I won't be complaining about having spent money on this, but maybe it will save others some money. I did add some comments, but those are actually rather pointless - basically you'll just find personal degrained, smooth, ugly and fugly and categories. All of those look too smooth to my eyes - that's why they are there (basically pick any of the faces that doesn't have a comment). And there's really no shortage of (f)ugly here.

I had no intentions to point out the good HDR stuff here, since that's been done already, but since I may be a bastard, but not a f***ing bastard, I did at least add some IMO nice examples as well (namely #1, #2, #3 in particular, #47, #50 and the title).

So IMO this is another MCU crap release, which could've been great (same as Iron Man). Morons.

YMMV. I hope part 2 fares better at least (didn't take a look yet).

BD (upscaled) | UHD-BD (madVR/SDR/200 nits)

Disclaimer as to why the UHD-BD images may appear to be too dim and please ignore any off-looking colours:

[Show spoiler]Please note that the UHD-BD shots have been converted from HDR to SDR using special techniques, which drastically compresses the dynamic range of the original image (the colour bit depth has been compressed as well). The UHD-BD shots are therefore not an accurate representation of the original HDR image - dynamic range, colours (tone and intensity) and contrast should be taken with a big pinch of salt and the main focus should be on comparing details. Typically, the image will appear too dark (which is by design when the caps are done at 200 nits; on its own they should be viewed with monitor brightness set to 200 nits), may lack a certain "pop" and may at times also appear "boosted" when compared to the BD shots. The SDR conversion should still give you a good idea of the actual image of the UHD-BD though and one should also be able to at least catch a glimpse of the increased dynamic range. The BD shots have been upscaled for comparison purposes, but other than that should be accurate. You might also want to check out this post of mine (incl. the further link there) where I tried to show/explain this:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=589

1.

2.

3.

4. ugly

5. smooooooth

6. ugly

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13. degrained

14.

15.

16. smooth

17.

18. degrained

19. ugly

20. ugly

21.

22. whole scene looks extremely smooth now

23.

24. devoid of any texture

25.

26. this actually isn't the most offensive scene IMO

27. but then again, this here looks fugly

28. degrained

29. degrained

30. lack of texture

31. fugly

32. smoothed over

33. fugly

34.

35. fugly

36.

37. fugly

38. fugly

39.

40.

41.

42. fugly

43.

44. fugly (next two)

45.

46.

47.

48.

49.

50.

51.

[Hardback247]

They look just fine to ME.

[lgans316]

Glad that I passed on Thor. Will buy it when it drops under £10. No hurry. We are going to be even more pissed when the DV stream of these are going to end up looking better than the HDR10 UHD

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Ah, I see. Thanks. Didn't keep up lately. Was busy taking photos. (EDIT: Still doubt it with the first one though - I for one can't 2K-down-/4K-upscale that one without losing actual high frequency detail - I tried)

Worth mentioning again that just because a movie only had 2K DCPs in cinemas doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have a higher-resolution timeline with full resolution of the non-VFX shots.

[Geoff D]

What, like Pan's Labyrinth?

Most of the time 2K means 2K.