Unforgiven 4K UHD (1992)

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

Before I answer, how old are you thinking? Also, why?

It's not an antagonistic question, it's just interesting to me that people who didn't grow up with the original would prefer it.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

It's not an antagonistic question, it's just interesting to me that people who didn't grow up with the original would prefer it.

I didn't think you meant it antagonistically, I was just curious how old I seemed. I'm in my late 20s but I'm something of an old soul. My grandfather, whom I was very close with, loved westerns above all other movies. I garnered a love of golden age classics from him. John Wayne is one of my favorite actors, and I find almost anything with him in it watchable, so obviously I'm inclined to like him more as Rooster Cogburn than Jeff Bridges. But that doesn't mean that I think every single thing about the original True Grit is better than the remake, as I've said. And if we're being honest, it was never a favorite Wayne film of mine to begin with, it just won him an Oscar, which places it in rarified company. I would have preferred him win for Red River, The Searchers, The Quiet Man, or The Shootist, to name a few, or even Sands of Iwo Jima for which he was also nominated but did not win.

But as far as True Grit specifically, as I've said there are elements of both that I prefer to the other. The original is just a film of an older style that is sometimes hard for the modern viewer to swallow, just as many older, less edgy films are. I certainly understand why you think it's terrible, I just disagree. Just like I disagree that Clint Eastwood is terrible, but I can understand why someone would think so. Please forgive this stream of consciousness, my thoughts are meandering a bit.

[MechaGodzilla]

On the subject of Westerns vs. Westerns, different films and eras and such, I'm tempted to say that, as far as moi is concerned, Spaghetti Westerns are the best Westerns.

Well, that's a generalization and oversimplification. Of course, whether we're talking classic American Westerns or later reinventions and revivals, we have films covering the entire quality spectrum. It's just, it feels like when a spaghet is really, really good, then it's not merely "a great film" but "one of the very finest the art form has to offer" level.

Old Sergio Leone has a lot to do with that perception, of course.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

On the subject of Westerns vs. Westerns, different films and eras and such, I'm tempted to say that, as far as moi is concerned, Spaghetti Westerns are the best Westerns.

Well, that's a generalization and oversimplification. Of course, whether we're talking classic American Westerns or later reinventions and revivals, we have films covering the entire quality spectrum. It's just, it feels like when a spaghet is really, really good, then it's not merely "a great film" but "one of the very finest the art form has to offer" level.

Old Sergio Leone has a lot to do with that perception, of course.

Leone's films have definitely aged a bit better than a lot of classic American westerns, but there's 100 awful spaghetti westerns for every Leone-level masterpiece of cinema. I think the batting average for domestic westerns is a lot better, but that should be expected.

[jrcorwin3]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

I didn't think you meant it antagonistically, I was just curious how old I seemed. I'm in my late 20s but I'm something of an old soul. My grandfather, whom I was very close with, loved westerns above all other movies. I garnered a love of golden age classics from him. John Wayne is one of my favorite actors, and I find almost anything with him in it watchable, so obviously I'm inclined to like him more as Rooster Cogburn than Jeff Bridges. But that doesn't mean that I think every single thing about the original True Grit is better than the remake, as I've said. And if we're being honest, it was never a favorite Wayne film of mine to begin with, it just won him an Oscar, which places it in rarified company. I would have preferred him win for Red River, The Searchers, The Quiet Man, or The Shootist, to name a few, or even Sands of Iwo Jima for which he was also nominated but did not win.

But as far as True Grit specifically, as I've said there are elements of both that I prefer to the other. The original is just a film of an older style that is sometimes hard for the modern viewer to swallow, just as many older, less edgy films are. I certainly understand why you think it's terrible, I just disagree. Just like I disagree that Clint Eastwood is terrible, but I can understand why someone would think so. Please forgive this stream of consciousness, my thoughts are meandering a bit.

I have been a lifelong fan of Wayne as well, but unfortunately my adult realization of what a horrific human being he was has made his films less enjoyable for me.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by jrcorwin3

I have been a lifelong fan of Wayne as well, but unfortunately my adult realization of what a horrific human being he was has made his films less enjoyable for me.

I've had to come to terms with that as well. But my reading of him, give or take some controversial and ignorant comments he made, is that he was a highly conflicted human being. It's interesting to me that he has this terrible perception in certain circles, but it seems like the vast majority of the people that worked with him (including many that disagreed with his politics) had nothing but positive things to say about him. I think that speaks a lot to his actual character. But even if it doesn't, there are a lot of talented and likable actors who aren't exactly wonderful people in real life, so I see no reason why anyone's perception of Wayne should be any different. He had his demons just like everyone else. And regardless of how he may or may not have been in real life, the characters he generally played were men of integrity and values that treated people with respect until they were given reason not to, which I can appreciate. So even if that isn't who he really was, I'm ultimately a fan of him as an actor above everything else.

"That guy you see on the screen isn't really me. I'm Duke Morrison, and I never was and never will be a film personality like John Wayne. I know him well. I'm one of his closest students. I have to be. I make a living out of him." - John Wayne, 1957

[brainofj72]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

It's not an antagonistic question, it's just interesting to me that people who didn't grow up with the original would prefer it.

You don’t see any value in Henry Hathaway’s sturdy craftsmanship, great performances from Wayne, Darby, and Duvall, sparkling dialogue from Charles Portis and Marguerite Roberts, and gorgeous, autumnal Colorado scenery photographed by Lucien Ballard? I love the Coens, but I really don’t know if I can agree that the remake has a stronger creative pedigree. (And I’m 31, by the way.)

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

Leone's films have definitely aged a bit better than a lot of classic American westerns, but there's 100 awful spaghetti westerns for every Leone-level masterpiece of cinema. I think the batting average for domestic westerns is a lot better, but that should be expected.

That could well be. The batting average being better, I mean. But for the stuff at the top... it's difficult for any film to compete with something like Once Upon a Time in the West.

Originally Posted by jrcorwin3

I have been a lifelong fan of Wayne as well, but unfortunately my adult realization of what a horrific human being he was has made his films less enjoyable for me.

I totally understand feeling that way, and I certainly share your, let's say strong disagreements, with some of his views and beliefs. But I always try to remember people are a product of their time. Wayne was born in 1907. If you went back to America - or any European nation, culturally we were very similar - during the days of his youth, and asked people on the street how they felt about things like gender equality, equal rights for ethnic minorities, or the fact that sexual minorities exist at all... you'd hear similar things from most of them.

It was the state of Western culture at the time, and he grew up in that. He has also been quoted as saying some things that seem to hint at a man that was a bit more understanding than he appears on the surface based on certain interviews, so I think there was at least some complexity there.

Originally Posted by brainofj72

You don’t see any value in Henry Hathaway’s sturdy craftsmanship, great performances from Wayne, Darby, and Duvall, sparkling dialogue from Charles Portis and Marguerite Roberts, and gorgeous, autumnal Colorado scenery photographed by Lucien Ballard? I love the Coens, but I really don’t know if I can agree that the remake has a stronger creative pedigree. (And I’m 31, by the way.)

Here I've been thinking you were born in 1972 (because of your username) all this time, and it turns out you're the same age as me? You just became ~16 years younger.

[Markgway]

I have a soft spot for those rugged screen tough guys (from Eastwood to Schwarzenegger), but for some reason I've never warmed to John Wayne. I watched both versions of True Grit close to each other some time ago and recall preferring the remake. I'm not sure if Unforgiven is Eastwood's best film as director - I really need to bump that up to top of my rewatch list - or The Outlaw Josey Wales. His best acting performance is in Wolfgang Petersen's In the Line of Fire - I think he should've gotten an Oscar nom for that.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

That could well be. The batting average being better, I mean. But for the stuff at the top... it's difficult for any film to compete with something like Once Upon a Time in the West.



I totally understand feeling that way, and I certainly share your, let's say strong disagreements, with some of his views and beliefs. But I always try to remember people are a product of their time. Wayne was born in 1907. If you went back to America - or any European nation, culturally we were very similar - during the days of his youth, and asked people on the street how they felt about things like gender equality, equal rights for ethnic minorities, or the fact that sexual minorities exist at all... you'd hear similar things from most of them.

It was the state of Western culture at the time, and people are shaped by their surroundings. He has also been quoted as saying some things that seem to hint at a man that was a bit more understanding than he appears on the surface based on certain interviews, so I think there was at least some complexity there.

Of course, Once Upon a Time in the West is a masterpiece. As is The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, which is my personal favorite western. But again, we're quoting the exceptions, not the rule. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of spaghetti westerns that are good fun, but separate from Leone the quality of the average spaghetti western falls quite rapidly. And let's not forget, the man only directed eight films, including five westerns. Compare that with John Ford's filmography, for instance, who directed something like 140 films, many of which are masterpieces on the same level as Leone's, they just tend to not translate as well into the modern day. Perhaps datedness lessens the legacy of masterpieces, but I don't like to hold a film's era against it unless it's propagating troubling ideologies.

Which is as good as any segue back to Wayne. Agreed that he was a man of his time, which isn't to excuse his views as much as properly contextualize them, which for some reason is a quality that seems to be falling by the wayside. He was good friends with both Rock Hudson and Roscoe Lee Browne, for instance, though comments that he made about homosexuals and people of color would seem to paint a different picture. All three of his wives were also of hispanic descent. As far as his intellect, he and Browne would apparently recite passages of poetry to one another on the set of The Cowboys to pass time. Unfortunately, the attempt to prop Wayne up as a masculine role model by certain figures and the need to tear him down on the other side has removed almost all nuance from the legacy of an incredibly complicated man. Him being a highly conservative warhawk in his time certainly didn't help anything at all, but that's on him.

I feel like I'm toeing dangerously close to the line of defending comments he made when in reality I'm just trying to say that the man was flawed, as we all are. And that he had more layers than his critics and even he himself portrayed at times.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by Markgway

I have a soft spot for those rugged screen tough guys (from Eastwood to Schwarzenegger), but for some reason I've never warmed to John Wayne. I watched both versions of True Grit close to each other some time ago and recall preferring the remake. I'm not sure if Unforgiven is Eastwood's best film as director - I really need to bump that up to top of my rewatch list - or The Outlaw Josey Wales. His best acting performance is in Wolfgang Petersen's In the Line of Fire - I think he should've gotten an Oscar nom for that.

Josey Wales for the win on that one. "You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"

As for Wayne, he's certainly not everyone's cup of tea. Have you seen The Searchers or Red River? Rio Bravo?

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

Of course, Once Upon a Time in the West is a masterpiece. As is The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, which is my personal favorite western. But again, we're quoting the exceptions, not the rule. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of spaghetti westerns that are good fun, but separate from Leone the quality of the average spaghetti western falls quite rapidly. And let's not forget, the man only directed eight films, including five westerns. Compare that with John Ford's filmography, for instance, who directed something like 140 films, many of which are masterpieces on the same level as Leone's, they just tend to not translate as well into the modern day. Perhaps datedness lessens the legacy of masterpieces, but I don't like to hold a film's era against it unless it's propagating troubling ideologies.

Which is as good as any segue back to Wayne. Agreed that he was a man of his time, which isn't to excuse his views as much as properly contextualize them, which for some reason is a quality that seems to be falling by the wayside. He was good friends with both Rock Hudson and Roscoe Lee Browne, for instance, though comments that he made about homosexuals and people of color would seem to paint a different picture. All three of his wives were also of hispanic descent. As far as his intellect, he and Browne would apparently recite passages of poetry to one another on the set of The Cowboys to pass time. Unfortunately, the attempt to prop Wayne up as a masculine role model by certain figures and the need to tear him down on the other side has removed almost all nuance from the legacy of an incredibly complicated man. Him being a highly conservative warhawk in his time certainly didn't help anything at all, but that's on him.

I feel like I'm toeing dangerously close to the line of defending comments he made when in reality I'm just trying to say that the man was flawed, as we all are. And that he had more layers than his critics and even he himself portrayed at times.

Exactly that. Contextualizing, in order to understand why older generations thought the way they did. That's not the same as agreeing with and supporting them.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

Exactly that. Contextualizing, in order to understand why older generations thought the way they did. That's not the same as agreeing with and supporting them.

There's also something to be said for enjoying a person's art without exactly endorsing who they were personally, which is really up to the individual.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

As for Wayne, he's certainly not everyone's cup of tea. Have you seen The Searchers or Red River? Rio Bravo?

A LONG time ago when I was little and even then I don't recall sitting right thru them. I was probably more open minded as a youngster than I am now (my tastes have regressed!) but even then I never 'got' John Wayne and tended to avoid much of his output. Whereas I sought out Eastwood's.

[Johnzilla2179]

Originally Posted by Markgway

A LONG time ago when I was little and even then I don't recall sitting right thru them. I was probably more open minded as a youngster than I am now (my tastes have regressed!) but even then I never 'got' John Wayne and tended to avoid much of his output. Whereas I sought out Eastwood's.

Fair enough. You could say that Wayne set the mold for the persona Eastwood later ran with: terse, rugged, given to one-liners, etc. But it all comes down to personal preference. I'd still recommend something like Rio Bravo to you, which is pretty much a hangout movie that includes perhaps the purest essence of Wayne as he is popularly known. The two best recommendations I've seen over the years are "Any list of coolest movies that doesn't include Rio Bravo is sorely flawed" (can't remember the source) and "When I'm getting serious about a girl, I show her Rio Bravo and she better f**kin' like it!" (Quentin Tarantino). But again, if you're not interested, I understand.

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

There's also something to be said for enjoying a person's art without exactly endorsing who they were personally, which is really up to the individual.

I completely agree with you on this. There are musical artists whom I don't agree with on a personal level yet I still love their music. However, I will add this caveat. Sometimes it's hard to ignore a person's personality and enjoy their work. Kanye West, for example, is one that I cannot stand their music or them. And part of that is because of their toxic personality. It's hard to like someone when they go out of their way to be unlikable.

[ThePreacher]

I personally think that Costner gets the Western genre the best out of all of them. Dances with Wolves, Hatfields & McCoys, Wyatt Earp, Silverado, Open Range, etc.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Johnzilla2179

There's also something to be said for enjoying a person's art without exactly endorsing who they were personally, which is really up to the individual.

Oh yeah, absolutely. Not only will many directors, actors, authors, musicians, etc. hold views and beliefs we disagree with, but some will be guilty of things most of us consider objectionable.

It's up to each individual how far they feel comfortable taking "separate the art from the artist". Personally speaking, I've learned that it is absolutely necessary, as I wouldn't be left with much art and entertainment to enjoy otherwise!

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

On the subject of Westerns vs. Westerns, different films and eras and such, I'm tempted to say that, as far as moi is concerned, Spaghetti Westerns are the best Westerns.

Well, that's a generalization and oversimplification. Of course, whether we're talking classic American Westerns or later reinventions and revivals, we have films covering the entire quality spectrum. It's just, it feels like when a spaghet is really, really good, then it's not merely "a great film" but "one of the very finest the art form has to offer" level.

Old Sergio Leone has a lot to do with that perception, of course.

If you are talking about stuff like Django, The Big Gundown, or Once Upon A Time In The West then the spaghetti westerns are right up there with the best. But once you start digging a little deeper, there are a lot of tragically bad spaghetti westerns.

Originally Posted by jrcorwin3

I have been a lifelong fan of Wayne as well, but unfortunately my adult realization of what a horrific human being he was has made his films less enjoyable for me.

He wasn't a horrific human being. Like, at all. Politically, yeah, he was very right wing so if you don't share his political beliefs that may be a problem for you, but most people who worked with him said he was a warm, charming, solid individual. I mean, Katharine Hepburn was about as far on the opposite end of the political spectrum as you could get and she loved working with him.

[ThePreacher]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

If you are talking about stuff like Django, The Big Gundown, or Once Upon A Time In The West then the spaghetti westerns are right up there with the best. But once you start digging a little deeper, there are a lot of tragically bad spaghetti westerns.



He wasn't a horrific human being. Like, at all. Politically, yeah, he was very right wing so if you don't share his political beliefs that may be a problem for you, but most people who worked with him said he was a warm, charming, solid individual. I mean, Katharine Hepburn was about as far on the opposite end of the political spectrum as you could get and she loved working with him.

Completely disagree. He said a bunch of racist shit. He hated gay people too.