The Third Man: Limited Collector's Edition

[johnpaul2]

Moshrom might be a tad exaggerating but it's clear that the newly restored soundtrack has been aggressively filtered and the resuling sound is muffled-sounding. High frequencies filtering is being way too common in restorations currently and this is one of those.

It's no bad batch.

[jimqk]

Originally Posted by johnpaul2

Moshrom might be a tad exaggerating but it's clear that the newly restored soundtrack has been aggressively filtered and the resuling sound is muffled-sounding. High frequencies filtering is being way too common in restorations currently and this is one of those.

It's no bad batch.

It is definitely not muffled whatsoever to my ears. Sounds wonderfully crisp and clear.

[jurgen42u]

Watched the UK Limited Edition today and must say it's wonderful. I had no lip sync problems or other distortions in the audio. Might have been a bad badge thing or they reissued the discs.

[Moshrom]

Originally Posted by jimqk

It is definitely not muffled whatsoever to my ears. Sounds wonderfully crisp and clear.

A video comparison has been added to the post. If you think it's an improvement, kudos to you, I suppose? Carry on enjoying it.

Originally Posted by jurgen42u

Watched the UK Limited Edition today and must say it's wonderful. I had no lip sync problems or other distortions in the audio. Might have been a bad badge thing or they reissued the discs.

This track has been in circulation since 2006. StudioCanal isn't about to replace it now, especially not when people like those in this thread are resistant to the possibility that it's flawed.

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by jimqk

It is definitely not muffled whatsoever to my ears. Sounds wonderfully crisp and clear.

Moshrom provided all the elements required to realise the sonic differences between the two tracks, highlighting how the SC track has been noticeably filtered out of its high frequencies.

As he writes, all the best to you if you can't hear it. Many people were happy with the original obviously DNRed release of Patton. I guess it's only logical studios and restoration houses keep on filtering soundtracks if people are happy with the results.

[UseY0ur1llusi0n]

Originally Posted by johnpaul2

but it's clear that the newly restored soundtrack has been aggressively filtered and the resuling sound is muffled-sounding. High frequencies filtering is being way too common in restorations currently and this is one of those.

This is the one caveat that stood out to me as well, back when I first watched my disc. I sort of lived with it for awhile, though a perturbed part of me felt like I should at least speak out and/or leave a site review.

I wasn't—however—aware of the missing dialogue/sound elements. It's a shame they didn't do a recall. Ridiculous how brickwalled the Criterion dB is too, looking at that blogpost (invaluable website btw - bookmarked!)

[professorwho]

I hope that for the eventual 4K UHD, SC can at least offer a non-filtered track. The German remastered BD of Fritz Lang's M has 2 audio mixes- a fully restored track, and one with no cleanup- if it's similar, I'd be happy.

[UseY0ur1llusi0n]

Originally Posted by professorwho

I hope that for the eventual 4K UHD, SC can at least offer a non-filtered track. The German remastered BD of Fritz Lang's M has 2 audio mixes- a fully restored track, and one with no cleanup- if it's similar, I'd be happy.

Unfortunately, it'll probably have to come from a boutique label than SC. I highly doubt the muppets in question over there have any inclination to add the aforementioned mono track from the Criterion DVD.

[Moshrom]

It's kind of disheartening to see people hope that a non-filtered track appears for this one film when the main aim of that site is to expose that audio non-restoration is a systemic problem that's been around since the mid-'90s.

But I'll concede that this one does sound especially bad since its mid to low frequencies have been messed with, rather than just its high end. The StudioCanal disc of Smiles of a Summer Night (a visually gorgeous restoration) is a similar case that comes to mind.

[UseY0ur1llusi0n]

Originally Posted by Moshrom

It's kind of disheartening to see people hope that a non-filtered track appears for this one film when the main aim of that site is to expose that audio non-restoration is a systemic problem that's been around since the mid-'90s.

But I'll concede that this one does sound especially bad since its mid to low frequencies have been messed with, rather than just its high end. The StudioCanal disc of Smiles of a Summer Night (a visually gorgeous restoration) is a similar case that comes to mind.

If you ever get a chance to check out Odeon's "First of the Few" (AKA Spitfire) from 1942 you'll be astounded at how badly the audio's been degraded. Almost unbearable to my ears at least. You should add it to your website.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by Moshrom

It's kind of disheartening to see people hope that a non-filtered track appears for this one film when the main aim of that site is to expose that audio non-restoration is a systemic problem that's been around since the mid-'90s.

But I'll concede that this one does sound especially bad since its mid to low frequencies have been messed with, rather than just its high end. The StudioCanal disc of Smiles of a Summer Night (a visually gorgeous restoration) is a similar case that comes to mind.

It's a shame. The audio is considered an afterthought for many of these restorations. I did a comparison with Criterion's mono of "Some Like It Hot" with the '01 MGM DVD's mono and Criterion completely butchered the opening snare hit for the song during the title sequence (in addition to making the song sound like it came out of a garbage can):
https://voca.ro/ozD6OBH5WzQ

[johnpaul2]

I don't think it's an afterthought. It's just that because it's a bit harder to compare soundtracks than compare PQs, and it's way more related to each individual hearings than a more objective comparison à la caps-a-holic, high-frequencies filtering akin to DNR get a pass on sound, just like DNR on PQ used to get a pass 10 years ago.

We're just repeating the same mistakes we used to do with picture quality then, because that's how quick a human can learn.

That's probably, to me, the biggest issue here : we should know better. We've already been though this. Numerous times.
And yet, you can filter stuff, and not only people are happy with it, but they also don't spot the issue, and even better : even when provided with concrete absolute proofs of the issue, they'll deny it.


I would be wary though to blame the label directly. It does seem like Criterion (and possibly some other labels) do their own internal sound restoration work, but it is likely most of the issues come from the restoration at a laboratory level. In the case of Some Like It Hot, it'd mean whoever did the "original monaural soundtrack" remastering and restoration (Roundabout, maybe).

[jimqk]

Originally Posted by Moshrom

A video comparison has been added to the post. If you think it's an improvement, kudos to you, I suppose? Carry on enjoying it.

This track has been in circulation since 2006. StudioCanal isn't about to replace it now, especially not when people like those in this thread are resistant to the possibility that it's flawed.

I never said it was an improvement to Criterion. I don't own the Criterion. I was happy with the Studio Canal release, and it is unfortunate the sound could have been better, but I didn't know there was something wrong with the sound until I visited this thread. I was very happy with the release, and the fact that I didn't have to pay $350 for the OOP Criterion.

[Moshrom]

The comparison is actually to the 1999 Criterion DVD, which sounds better than the Criterion blu-ray. I'm not pitching for either Criterion release and certainly wouldn't recommend anyone pay ridiculous prices for the blu-ray. I'm rather arguing that the StudioCanal is very flawed.

But your reaction doesn't really surprise me -- I expect little else from people who have paid for something and have been told it's the superior transfer. What I hope, though, is that people can at least acknowledge that these flaws exist and will continue appearing unless we choose to be less complacent.

Now, if someone were to argue that an abysmal audio track is an improvement even when presented with a direct comparison... that would be truly baffling.

[jackranderson]

2016!

You sure don’t forget

[johnpaul2]

The Mizoguchis' new sound restorations are actually quite typical of the issues audible on many JP recent restorations. Many Ozus also ave similar issues : they're highly filtered out and sound extremely muffled. Moshrom compared some of those to their previous releases, and it's clear the former soundtracks were better. Yet, most of the reviews of these restorations BD releases give good or even perfect scores to those tracks, despite their obvious limitations.

It's hard to understand why in these days, reviewers don't know better and don't treat filtered soundtracks the same way they've learnt to treat filtered pictures. Taking some exemples from blu-ray.com, it's astounding that Good Morning's Criterion BD would get a perfect 5/5 AQ score considering their DVD sounded better. An equivalent judgment can be made on An Actor's Revenge 5/5 AQ score, who has an extremely filtered sound track.

It's also interesting to note that Moshrom's blog points out through many cases that Criterion regularly don't just use the new sound restorations but filter out the high frequencies, and in some cases, claim to use a new sound restoration but actually don't.


In an ideal world, these findings should enlightening to everyone reading them. It was to me at least. It should help us challenging future sound restorations which might filtered again.

[Moshrom]

Originally Posted by jackranderson

2016!

You sure don’t forget

He's a reviewer on this website, the same who reviewed the disc this thread has been discussing.

Originally Posted by johnpaul2

...many cases that Criterion regularly don't just use the new sound restorations but filter out the high frequencies, and in some cases, claim to use a new sound restoration but actually don't.

It's not that regular but certainly disappointing when it happens, Ugetsu being a notable example off the top of my head. Cries and Whispers is another, but the audio notes for that in the booklet were left ambiguous.

[ToonySpoonGoon]

anybody know where I could purchase this Limited Edition in the US? or somewhere where it could be shipped to the US? Amazon UK currently has it in stock but only for the UK

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by ToonySpoonGoon

anybody know where I could purchase this Limited Edition in the US? or somewhere where it could be shipped to the US? Amazon UK currently has it in stock but only for the UK

I ordered it from Amazon UK and it shipped. I checked and it’s delivered from Rarewaves but it doesn’t say, won’t deliver to US.

[ToonySpoonGoon]

Originally Posted by Gacivory

I ordered it from Amazon UK and it shipped. I checked and it’s delivered from Rarewaves but it doesn’t say, won’t deliver to US.

I just found rarewaves listing, its practically hidden, thank you!