NPD Februaury 2009 - 2 days Killzone 2 figures inside!

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by mightypen

Square bet on the wrong HD console? Its not like jrpgs on the ps3 are lighting the world on fire either. The JRPG is a dying genre that probably needs to be either on handhelds or multi-plat only.

You are basing this on a sample of one? Valkyria Chronicles is the one JRPG released day and date on the PS3 so far which did poorly...and it was a new franchise so people didn't recognize the name.

Disgaea 3 didn't sell like hotcakes, but no prior Disgaea did either.

Disgaea 3 and Valkyria Chronicles aren't exactly standard JRPGs either.

White Knight Chronicles sold fairly well actually. It vastly outsold every JRPG released on 360 anyhoo.

The 360 has had about a dozen chances now, all of which failed.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to try something else than backing the horse which has already been proven a failure.

[mightypen]

The 360 has had about a dozen chances now, all of which failed.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to try something else than backing the horse which has already been proven a failure

I'm a bit confused, I said that based on sales on both platforms of jrpgs, they should be predominantly multi-plat. Is this bushian-you're either with us or against us-horse backing?

And I would dispute that all 360 jrpg sales have been failures-Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon in particular. They didn't sell FF, KH, or DQ levels, but they certainly weren't tank jobs, they performed like upper-middle of the pack ps2 jrpgs.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by mightypen

I'm a bit confused, I said that based on sales on both platforms of jrpgs, they should be predominantly multi-plat. Is this bushian-you're either with us or against us-horse backing?

And I would dispute that all 360 jrpg sales have been failures-Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon in particular. They didn't sell FF, KH, or DQ levels, but they certainly weren't tank jobs, they performed like upper-middle of the pack ps2 jrpgs.

Hmm, go to wherever and learn a bit of history and you will see why everybody thinks 360 JRPGs have all failed.

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey are by Mistwalker which is run by Hironbu Sakaguchi who is the father of Final Fantasy. FF does about 6-8m WW per entry, Blue Dragon hasn't broken 1m, and LO has barely broken through it.

Tales of Vesperia did exceptionally poorly for a mothership Tales of game hasn't broken 200k in Japan.

The Last Remnant/Infinite Undiscovery are two new IPs from Square Enix which should each have shipped more than 500k WW, neither broke that low barrier.

Star Ocean 4 was the biggest let down. A series which did 700k on PS2 over 3 editions looks unlikely to break 200k in Japan and didn't chart in the Xbox 360 top 10 for US sales and 360 games are generally much weaker in Europe

"Upper to middle of the pack" JRPGs on PS2 did more in Japan that 360 titles do WW. If the publishers were smart they would have spent their efforts in building a real JRPG base on the PS3 or Wii instead of taking money from MS and selling to the same 150-200k hardcore fans everytime. That's why JRPGs are said to be dying, if you made games in a genre that only had a fanbase of 200k in the primary country you would ve well within your rights to give up...

[bampot]

We wont get a ps3 pricecut for atleast a few months. The yen shock has absolutely decimated Japanese exporters. Nearly every major Japanese exporter is expecting HUGE losses this fiscal. So basically Sonys hands are tied. A bit funny watching MS crowing when the only reason they're outselling ps3 is because of the massive currency fluctuations which have crippled Sony. Without the yen shock there would of been a $299 ps3 last fall and probably a $199 this coming fall.

[mightypen]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Hmm, go to wherever and learn a bit of history and you will see why everybody thinks 360 JRPGs have all failed.

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey are by Mistwalker which is run by Hironbu Sakaguchi who is the father of Final Fantasy. FF does about 6-8m WW per entry, Blue Dragon hasn't broken 1m, and LO has barely broken through it.

Do you consider WKC to be a failure, because its recent pedigree, while not that of Lost Odyssey/Blue Dragon is nothing to sniff at, and it isn't going to touch 6 million world wide either.

IMO, a jrpg selling over 500k these days is respectable and anything approaching a million is successful. WKC sold a hair over 300k in japan, in the ps2 era, that would have placed them at around the 135-140 mark in total ps2 sales. These are different days for jrpg sales, much like the sales of SFIV these days are lauded at 850k, condescension not withstanding.

Tales of Vesperia did exceptionally poorly for a mothership Tales of game hasn't broken 200k in Japan.

The Last Remnant/Infinite Undiscovery are two new IPs from Square Enix which should each have shipped more than 500k WW, neither broke that low barrier.

Star Ocean 4 was the biggest let down. A series which did 700k on PS2 over 3 editions looks unlikely to break 200k in Japan and didn't chart in the Xbox 360 top 10 for US sales and 360 games are generally much weaker in Europe

I agree. Of course, ps3 jrpgs themselves aren't performing all that well either. Considering there are fewer jrpgs on the console, as you point out below, if there was a pent up need for them, they should be performing better.

"Upper to middle of the pack" JRPGs on PS2 did more in Japan that 360 titles do WW. If the publishers were smart they would have spent their efforts in building a real JRPG base on the PS3 or Wii instead of taking money from MS and selling to the same 150-200k hardcore fans everytime. That's why JRPGs are said to be dying, if you made games in a genre that only had a fanbase of 200k in the primary country you would ve well within your rights to give up...

By upper to middle of the pack, I meant the tier below the big 3 and above the 50% range. I highly doubt that lost odyssey and blue dragon fail to fall in that range, which is why I disputed that all 360 jrpgs have been failures.

For reference, here are the ps2 sales:

http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?ti...SC&res1=&res2=

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by mightypen

Do you consider WKC to be a failure, because its recent pedigree, while not that of Lost Odyssey/Blue Dragon is nothing to sniff at, and it isn't going to touch 6 million world wide either.

What? White Knight Chronicle's recent pedigree is Rogue Galaxy, which sold only slightly more than WKC did, but on the PS2 five years into the system's life. Neither of the Dark Clouds sold anywhere near as well according the the handy table you linked.

I agree. Of course, ps3 jrpgs themselves aren't performing all that well either. Considering there are fewer jrpgs on the console, as you point out below, if there was a pent up need for them, they should be performing better.

What PS3 jrpgs? There's a grand total of White Knight Story, and it sold very well in Japan despite being a Level-5 rpg. Oh, sure, there's crap (Enchanted Arms, Cross Edge), games that really aren't rpgs (Valkyria Chronicles, Disgaea 3, Folklore), games that everybody already learned to dislike on the 360 (Eternal Sonata), and, my personal favorite, cleaned-up hentai games from the PC that are several years old (Record of Agarast War, Tears to Tiara).

By upper to middle of the pack, I meant the tier below the big 3 and above the 50% range. I highly doubt that lost odyssey and blue dragon fail to fall in that range, which is why I disputed that all 360 jrpgs have been failures.

According to your handy chart, Lost Odyssey sold 109,517 copies in Japan. By comparision, Valkyria Chronicles 'failed' at 141,589 copies. Blue Dragon is at 203,740, which honestly doesn't sound right, I thought it did better than that. Garaph seems to be a trusted source though.

But 109,517 puts Lost Odyssey slightly below rank 410 of PS2 games, which is Tokimeki Memorial: Girl's Side... a dating sim spinoff aimed at girls. But Blue Dragon would be at rank 214, within shouting distance of Persona 3 at 210. Considering MS probably spent more on marketing Blue Dragon than Atlus did making Persona 3, I have a hard time calling that a success, especially since it's been downhill from there.

[mightypen]

Originally Posted by androvsky

What? White Knight Chronicle's recent pedigree is Rogue Galaxy, which sold only slightly more than WKC did, but on the PS2 five years into the system's life. Neither of the Dark Clouds sold anywhere near as well according the the handy table you linked.

Well, and they developed DQVIII and are working on DQIX currently. And Jeanne D'Arc, and the Layton games.

According to your handy chart, Lost Odyssey sold 109,517 copies in Japan. By comparision, Valkyria Chronicles 'failed' at 141,589 copies. Blue Dragon is at 203,740, which honestly doesn't sound right, I thought it did better than that. Garaph seems to be a trusted source though.

But 109,517 puts Lost Odyssey slightly below rank 410 of PS2 games, which is Tokimeki Memorial: Girl's Side... a dating sim spinoff aimed at girls. But Blue Dragon would be at rank 214, within shouting distance of Persona 3 at 210. Considering MS probably spent more on marketing Blue Dragon than Atlus did making Persona 3, I have a hard time calling that a success, especially since it's been downhill from there.

I included the garaph link b/c its interesting and lets you (plural) draw your own conclusions from the charts.

I was comparing LO to ps2 jrpgs, of which is a subset of those 402. Further, considering that LO actually charted in the US, unlike a huge number of the games ahead of it in the ps2 comparison (considering in particular how many were never translated or given extremely limited releases) I'll stick by my position that it sold like a mid-upper mid tier jrpg world-wide. Now whether or not it was profitable or if it met/failed expectations, is something I am not privy to. Obviously each game created has its own expectations, but while its easy enough to speculate that IU etc were disappointments based on the massive price collapse, its another thing to speculate that a million seller was a disappointment.

[AranhaHunter]

Originally Posted by mightypen

Well, and they developed DQVIII and are working on DQIX currently. And Jeanne D'Arc, and the Layton games.

Eidos could develop a mainline Dragon Quest game for the original XBox and it would still sell in Japan, L5 developed games sell about 300-400k based on MC numbers and WKC fell within that range despite receiving mediocre scores. Layton is the first true big time hit from L5 and it's on a handheld.

I included the garaph link b/c its interesting and lets you (plural) draw your own conclusions from the charts.

I was comparing LO to ps2 jrpgs, of which is a subset of those 402. Further, considering that LO actually charted in the US, unlike a huge number of the games ahead of it in the ps2 comparison (considering in particular how many were never translated or given extremely limited releases) I'll stick by my position that it sold like a mid-upper mid tier jrpg world-wide. Now whether or not it was profitable or if it met/failed expectations, is something I am not privy to. Obviously each game created has its own expectations, but while its easy enough to speculate that IU etc were disappointments based on the massive price collapse, its another thing to speculate that a million seller was a disappointment.

First off you act like no one knows who or what garaph is, their chart, while very useful, is far from complete (you can go to GAF and ask the site's owner and he'll verify), and max does not need any of these charts to know the real shipped/sold numbers.

If a game doesn't chart in the NPD charts, it does not mean that it's not selling better than other games, I feel confident saying that February's number 11 Wii game has probably outsold the number 1 PSP game.

The ONLY person on this board that is in a position to say whether or not LO ~1 million sales is equivalent to a "mid-upper mid tier jrpg" on PS2 is max for he has had access to the sales and shipped numbers WW. We (the general public) have access to Famitsu and MC numbers and we can say that, in Japan, ALL 360 RPGs have done well for being on the XBox brand while they ALL had subpar sales overall, especially SO4 and ToV.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by mightypen

Well, and they developed DQVIII and are working on DQIX currently. And Jeanne D'Arc, and the Layton games.

No they didn't develop the DQ games, Enix outsourced all of the grunt work to Level-5, the scenario work and story (i.e. the stuff that matters) stayed with Enix. Jeanne D'Arc while decent in itself was a commercial failure, and the Layton games are tailor made to the DS crowd (brain-training like puzzles embedded in an RPG).

I included the garaph link b/c its interesting and lets you (plural) draw your own conclusions from the charts.

I was comparing LO to ps2 jrpgs, of which is a subset of those 402. Further, considering that LO actually charted in the US, unlike a huge number of the games ahead of it in the ps2 comparison (considering in particular how many were never translated or given extremely limited releases) I'll stick by my position that it sold like a mid-upper mid tier jrpg world-wide. Now whether or not it was profitable or if it met/failed expectations, is something I am not privy to. Obviously each game created has its own expectations, but while its easy enough to speculate that IU etc were disappointments based on the massive price collapse, its another thing to speculate that a million seller was a disappointment.

Like I said you need to do a bit of research before talking to seasoned sales-agers, you compare WKC to LO in terms of pedigree but Level-5 don't even come close to Mistwalker in terms of history. I think you need to remember that Sakaguchi is the father of the FF series, and the only thing Level-5 have done that is relatively successful is Dark Cloud.

Oh and for WKC a new IP from a b-grade developer like Level-5 to beat a main entry to the Star Ocean Series is pitiful and I hope MS paid tri-Ace a lot of money because it is unlikely they will ever make a series as successful as Star Ocean again.

[Terjyn]

The fact that Mistwalker studios cancelled their followup 360 project speaks volumes for how successful Lost Odyssey really was.

Lost Odyssey actually illustrates the issue. It would have sold roughly the same outside of Japan regardless of platform. In Japan, they tanked their sales by platform choice. Why? For that matter, why would ANY JRPG maker make this choice?

I fully understand releasing PSP/PS2, DS, or Wii, rather than either high def console. But it's suicide for a JRPG to exclusively release for a non-Japanese console. Given the currect success of LO it could have easily pushed 1.5 million, instead of "only" 1 million, and that's ignoring the fact that the creator was that Final Fantasy guy. Hell, compare LO to the Final Fantasy remakes on the DS, which sold comparably world-wide and were way cheaper to create.

[FinalEvangelion]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Hmm, go to wherever and learn a bit of history and you will see why everybody thinks 360 JRPGs have all failed.

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey are by Mistwalker which is run by Hironbu Sakaguchi who is the father of Final Fantasy. FF does about 6-8m WW per entry, Blue Dragon hasn't broken 1m, and LO has barely broken through it.

Tales of Vesperia did exceptionally poorly for a mothership Tales of game hasn't broken 200k in Japan.

The Last Remnant/Infinite Undiscovery are two new IPs from Square Enix which should each have shipped more than 500k WW, neither broke that low barrier.

Star Ocean 4 was the biggest let down. A series which did 700k on PS2 over 3 editions looks unlikely to break 200k in Japan and didn't chart in the Xbox 360 top 10 for US sales and 360 games are generally much weaker in Europe

"Upper to middle of the pack" JRPGs on PS2 did more in Japan that 360 titles do WW. If the publishers were smart they would have spent their efforts in building a real JRPG base on the PS3 or Wii instead of taking money from MS and selling to the same 150-200k hardcore fans everytime. That's why JRPGs are said to be dying, if you made games in a genre that only had a fanbase of 200k in the primary country you would ve well within your rights to give up...

I sure hope we hear about a PS3 version really soon. I do think FF XIII will do okay on 360 (as in 2 million) because it is the jRPG that many Western FPS / wPRG fans will actually go out of there way to play. LO shows this a little since it's basically an FF clone from the old producer.

It is too bad to see my favorite genre going down so fast because of the greed of Wada and Bill Gates.

If MS stops giving SE their fund packages, I can see SE coming back to beg on their knees from Sony and/or Nintendo.

[MOONPHASE]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

You are basing this on a sample of one? Valkyria Chronicles is the one JRPG released day and date on the PS3 so far which did poorly...and it was a new franchise so people didn't recognize the name.

Disgaea 3 didn't sell like hotcakes, but no prior Disgaea did either.

Disgaea 3 and Valkyria Chronicles aren't exactly standard JRPGs either.

White Knight Chronicles sold fairly well actually. It vastly outsold every JRPG released on 360 anyhoo.

The 360 has had about a dozen chances now, all of which failed.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to try something else than backing the horse which has already been proven a failure.

Disgaea was never that popular in America (or at least nothing compared to Japan)but however the 1st title has made it to the Greatest Hits section for America so at least you can say it sold descently. Disgaea 2 was just not as good, and Disgaea 3 it was more like most people who played the previous ones either A. Were not ready for another Disgaea because of not owning a PS3 or B. The fact that its a PS3 game using 2D sprites

[Terjyn]

Disgaea 1 got to it's status because of the fact that it was initially underprinted in the US and thus sold out. It's part of the Wii mystique "It's sold out! It has to be awesome."

Even so, Disgaea 2 sales were not overly impressive, nor will you find Disgaea 1 on the list of "top selling games" of any type.

[LifeOfAPirate13]

Are there any sales figures on Resident Evil 5?

[~Guru~]

I know this is a Blu Ray (SOny PS3) lovers world, but the 360 is the king of gaming console...

It has outsold and outperformed the ps3 in every shape way and form.

all multiplatform games are rated better on 360 and xbox live is just a machine and kicks the snot out of the psn

and most of you guys must know that a lot of people buy ps3 for blu ray movies and not for gaming....

i read on avs forums about a people who have ps3 for movies and dont game and if they do is once in a blue

I love my ps3 but all i do is watch movies on blu ray and play MLB the show...

other then that all my hardcored gaming is on 360

[dereksworl]

^^^I'm guessing he'll receive a warning.

[~Guru~]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

^^^I'm guessing he'll receive a warning.

why would I get a warning...I am not bashing the ps3..

Is a great machine...but the 360 is the top selling cosole for GAMING

as far as multi media and watching dvs or blu ray..the ps3 is superior...

So i get a warning because I state my opinion on a gaming console...WOW

[Stephie_is_a_dork]

Originally Posted by dereksworl

^^^I'm guessing he'll receive a warning.

LOL...Max doesn't like it when people "junior mod" either. If you have issues, don't respond, report.

[Paganmoon]

Originally Posted by ~Guru~

I know this is a Blu Ray (SOny PS3) lovers world, but the 360 is the king of gaming console...

It has outsold and outperformed the ps3 in every shape way and form.

all multiplatform games are rated better on 360 and xbox live is just a machine and kicks the snot out of the psn

and most of you guys must know that a lot of people buy ps3 for blu ray movies and not for gaming....

i read on avs forums about a people who have ps3 for movies and dont game and if they do is once in a blue

I love my ps3 but all i do is watch movies on blu ray and play MLB the show...

other then that all my hardcored gaming is on 360

Just a few notes...
USA is not the world, the PS3 is doing very well in europe, and the release in europe was 3+ months after the US one. So no the 360 is not outselling PS3 in "every shape, way and form".

All multiplatform games are not rated better on the 360 (generalizing should be a crime tbh...). And if they are it's due to ignorance by the reviewers, it is the same game on both platforms, let's not pixelcount...

I love the argument that "most people buy the PS3 for blu-ray, they don't play games on it", whilst there are yet others who use the argument "Blu-ray is dead, people don't use PS3 to watch blu-ray so it shouldn't count in sales data"... So which one is it?

Define hardcore gaming. If by hardcore gaming you mean Gears of War and other FPS games... well I'd wager many would disagree.

/P

[LifeOfAPirate13]

Originally Posted by ~Guru~

I know this is a Blu Ray (SOny PS3) lovers world, but the 360 is the king of gaming console...

It has outsold and outperformed the ps3 in every shape way and form.

all multiplatform games are rated better on 360 and xbox live is just a machine and kicks the snot out of the psn

and most of you guys must know that a lot of people buy ps3 for blu ray movies and not for gaming....

i read on avs forums about a people who have ps3 for movies and dont game and if they do is once in a blue

I love my ps3 but all i do is watch movies on blu ray and play MLB the show...

other then that all my hardcored gaming is on 360

Hearsay! lol I enjoy PSN over xbox live call me an idiot, stupid, whatever but I dont need a stupid wii avatar and a clunky menu as well as paying to play online I have played COD4 for countless hours, RE5 online, as well as Killzone 2 and SF4 without any internet problems and to top it all off right now I have DSL (WHICH IS HORRIBLE!) but I haven't had one problem connecting and or being booted from a game. So I mean you can sit here and say that its a superior gaming counsel all you want that maybe true in SALES FIGURES in the United States but elsewhere the 360 doesn't sell jack. Look at RE5 sales numbers in japan for opening day Its like 328k PS# and 78k 360 LOL. I'd rather be able to play my game for more than a day before my system breaks (and say I am bashing maybe I am) but I worked at Gamestop for 4 years from the beginning of the 360's lifespan and I have never seen such a cheaply made system in my life.