Testing of Stock versus Upgraded (modified) Components

[naturephoto1]

Hopefully in the near future, I will be making some comparisons of a stock versus an upgraded (modified) Denon DVD 3800BDCI Blu-ray player and a stock versus an upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/pro. This is coming about due to the feelings of many of you that I am not providing truthful information and due to comments such as the quote below:

Originally Posted by btf1980

No one knows what Dave Schulte does, and from your posts, I don't think you remotely know either. You keep bringing up how much better your 3800 sounds. Better compared to what? Did you compare your modded 3800 to an unmodded one simultaneously? Everything about it reads like a Stereophile magazine. Chock full of vagueness, unsubstantiated claims, no proof of anything, no comparisons of modded and unmodded source units at the same time. It really gets old.

Changing power cords on blu-ray players? <sigh>

Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company is attempting to get me stock units fresh out of the box to make A/B comparisons with my upgraded units of these models. It should be stated though that when the upgrades are developed for these models, the stock versus upgraded units are compared by several individuals to concur on the improved performance before these units are released as upgrades. The stock and upgraded machines are in turn compared to very expensive products on the market. The upgraded units come with a money back guarantee which is very unusual for modified products. These products would not be released if they would not have improved performance because this would be a waste of time and money for the modifications and the units would be returned for a full refund.

In an effort to make these tests as fair and unbiased as possible the units will be tested using identical singled ended RCA interconnects, single ended coaxial RCA interconnects, and HDMI cables, power conditioners, power cords, and tweaks. The volume of the units will be adjusted to be equal, the source disks will be identical, etc. We will attempt to test the audio and video reproduction for analog, digital, and HDMI cables.

It will have to be understood, that the fresh components will not have been broken in while my components will have more play time than the new pieces. Additionally, to avoid being called biased in the tests, I am requesting that several of the members volunteer and give their input on these findings in a listening and viewing session.

I will keep you informed as to when the components arrive. In the mean time, please contact me if you would like to participate in this comparison. For those interested, I live north of Allentown, PA but only have a small listening room so the group will be fairly small.

Rich

[richteer]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

It will have to be understood, that the fresh components will not have been broken in while my components will have more play time than the new pieces. Additionally, to avoid being called biased in the tests, I am requesting that several of the members volunteer and give their input on these findings in a listening and viewing session.

I'd be interested in particpating, but logistics (not to mention, lack of finances) would probably discount me.

I'd suggest as much break-in as possible is done for the unmodified components.

[Intamin]

I'd love to join in but for the same reasons as rich won't be able to. Maybe if I ever get around to visiting Dorney Park (roller coasters are my other passion, hence the name) I'll hit you up. I do want to know how this turns out though.

[mdabb]

When will this all come about Rich ???

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by mdabb

When will this all come about Rich ???

Hi Andrew,

I think that Dave has ordered an Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/pro already for shipping to me; that is my understanding from a discussion we had yesterday. If that is correct, then it would be a matter of waiting for the Denon 3800 BDCI which I think that he will be ordering for shipping to me shortly. Dave wants me to photograph the opening of the new boxes to demonstrate that these are in fact new and unused. Once the tests have been completed, the stock components will be sent back to Dave because he has orders on at least one of these as an upgraded unit already.

It would be great to meet you and to have you as one of the panel to test the components, but I know that coming from the Pittsburgh area to about 17 miles north of Allentown is a long ride.

I will further update this as more information becomes available. I know what to expect from having compared upgraded (modified units) versus some expensive gear already, but we will have to wait for the confirmation when the testing is conducted.

Rich

[Blu-Raider]

I replaced my cable box stock power cord with a $3500 version and the 480i programming suddenly became 1080p. Most amazing thing I've ever seen!

(just kidding the op, of course)

[mdabb]

Rich, I'm gonna send you a PM later on.

[Blu-Raider]

(just kidding the op, of course)

Read...very...carefully...

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hi Rich,

I'd love to participate, but like Rich in B.C., logistics is the main stumbling block. I don't know how many times I've travelled into the U.S., but now I need a freagin' Passport. Has anyone been to their local Passport Office? It's like take a number, get called, sit back down, wait and then get called again only to discover the pic you provided isn't acceptable. So you get to do it again next week! LOL..I know that was getting a bit off-topic, but it peeves me off.

I'm sure there are a good number of people around your area that would be willing to participate in this. I hope they come out and partake!

Looking forward to hearing the results.

John

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by John72953

Hi Rich,

I'd love to participate, but like Rich in B.C., logistics is the main stumbling block. I don't know how many times I've travelled into the U.S., but now I need a freagin' Passport. Has anyone been to their local Passport Office? It's like take a number, get called, sit back down, wait and then get called again only to discover the pic you provided isn't acceptable. So you get to do it again next week! LOL..I know that was getting a bit off-topic, but it peeves me off.

I'm sure there are a good number of people around your area that would be willing to participate in this. I hope they come out and partake!

Looking forward to hearing the results.

John

Hi John,

I can very much appreciate the problem. I think that my Passport is out of date now myself. It is really unfortunate at this point that the two countries who are on the best of terms with the first and one of the few International Peace Parks (Glacier/Waterton Lakes National Parks) still have this requirement as a result of 9/11.

Rich

[Slec]

Hi Rich,
You've been a helpful member here with some great knowledge. Don't let yourself get too defensive over what someone on a forum says. Like anything else, if you can hear a difference and feel its worth it... Do it. Don't get bogged down in trying to prove yourself right. There will always be nay-sayers and the internet is full of angry people looking for a fight. keep doing what your doing and you'll be fine. If people feel you are promoting this guys company, maybe back of the rhetoric a bit, but PLEASE continue to contribute.

Chris

edit: I'm always into reading comparisons so this sounds great, but don't kill yourself trying to prove someone wrong. No matter what you won't win.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Slec

Hi Rich,
You've been a helpful member here with some great knowledge. Don't let yourself get too defensive over what someone on a forum says. Like anything else, if you can hear a difference and feel its worth it... Do it. Don't get bogged down in trying to prove yourself right. There will always be nay-sayers and the internet is full of angry people looking for a fight. keep doing what your doing and you'll be fine. If people feel you are promoting this guys company, maybe back of the rhetoric a bit, but PLEASE continue to contribute.

Chris

edit: I'm always into reading comparisons so this sounds great, but don't kill yourself trying to prove someone wrong. No matter what you won't win.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the support. This has come about though from a few sources including here and to a greater extent over at AVS. At this point, I want to at least field the question of making comparisons between stock and upgraded and to have others participate and lend their comments whether they agree with my observations or not. Dave Schulte would also like this to be a totally unbiased test so that people can make their own assessments based upon the reports of our findings.

We can all learn and help others if they are willing to have an open mind and ears.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

Hi Rich,

I actually really think this is a wonderful thing you're doing. Everyone could report their findings independently and it would make for wonderful discussion on this forum.

I know that if you were in the greater Toronto area, you'd get lots of interest as I know of at least a dozen members within a 45-minute drive. I know for sure that Steve and I would be a part of that. And more than likely Ozzman as well.

John

PS: I agree with Chris as well....your opinions are valued and your insights have been helpful to me and to many others I'm sure. You keep rockin'!

[naturephoto1]

I just spoke to Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company. He was very pleased that people were looking forward to these tests. He has 1 of the 2 components already on order for delivery to me. He will be placing an order for the second component for delivery. Neither my own Onkyo PR-SC885 nor my Denon 3800 BDCI are burned in to near their full poential. But, to try to make the tests more fair and following Rich Teer's suggestion, I will try to burn in the stock components for several weeks. So, at this point Dave and I are suggesting that I tentatively try to make these tests for approximately 3 weeks away from and/or including this coming weekend.

Also, to make things plain, Dave Schulte of the Upgrade Company will not be attending this listening session so that our reported observations will be as unbiased as we can possibly make them.

Rich

[aramis109]

Rich-

I'm interested in seeing your results. However, I have to ask- how are you going to be able to make comparisons? Are there going to be measurable, data-specific increases or is it going to be something where the sound is "more warm, airy" etc? If so, even by removing every bias possible, you still have the bias of the listener.

Either way, I'm still interested in this. I learn so much from others on this site and am open to the possibility that these upgrades will have a marked improvement overall. Another on this project, even if it is from a healthy skeptic.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Rich-

I'm interested in seeing your results. However, I have to ask- how are you going to be able to make comparisons? Are there going to be measurable, data-specific increases or is it going to be something where the sound is "more warm, airy" etc? If so, even by removing every bias possible, you still have the bias of the listener.

Either way, I'm still interested in this. I learn so much from others on this site and am open to the possibility that these upgrades will have a marked improvement overall. Another on this project, even if it is from a healthy skeptic.

I am not sure how we could even make many of the comparisons by measurable recorded data. What will be reported will be based upon each persons visible and audible observations. As far as the audible comments, I would expect that it would refer to not only more airy as an example but to also talk in terms of such things as clarity, depth, imaging, soundstage, richness of sound, naturalness, accuracy of the voice, and instruments, etc. Part of the reason for multiple people is to indicate their opinions based upon their own bias. That way the reader can make his or her own educated interpretation based upon all of the reports.

Rich

[Intamin]

If this does indeed end up being the weekend of the 18th, I definitely won't be able to attend.

As to how it's being measured, I think the ultimate measure is what we hear since that's why we buy these items. I don't tend to think that an upgrade would change things that would be measureable in nature. However, I'm sure many of the "scientists" would tend to disagree with this.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Intamin

If this does indeed end up being the weekend of the 18th, I definitely won't be able to attend.

As to how it's being measured, I think the ultimate measure is what we hear since that's why we buy these items. I don't tend to think that an upgrade would change things that would be measureable in nature. However, I'm sure many of the "scientists" would tend to disagree with this.

Hi Alex,

The date is not cast in stone yet. So let us not write things off quite yet. I will keep you and everyone posted. The first thing is to actually get the equipment here so that I can start a break in period. The date may well be able to be adjusted.

Send me a PM as to dates that can attend.

Also as a treat for the attendees, it will be quite likely that you will also be able to see and hear my new Teres 450 turntable set-up. That gives more reason for some to consider participating in this audition.

Rich

[welwynnick]

Hi Rich,

This is a good move. There will always be sceptics over this sort of thing, and a comparison that is as fair and impartial as possible will count for great deal. I don't think you have much to prove or gain, but other folks (like me) will have a lot to learn.

Unfortunately we don't generally get much useul information from publications and other professional reviewers on real audio quality, and extended user impressions can count for a great deal, and if they can be objective, so much the better.

Of course I would love to be there as well, Rich, but there's the small matter of the Atlantic. I've been thinking about doing soething similar over this side...

Nick

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Hi Rich,

This is a good move. There will always be sceptics over this sort of thing, and a comparison that is as fair and impartial as possible will count for great deal. I don't think you have much to prove or gain, but other folks (like me) will have a lot to learn.

Unfortunately we don't generally get much useul information from publications and other professional reviewers on real audio quality, and extended user impressions can count for a great deal, and if they can be objective, so much the better.

Of course I would love to be there as well, Rich, but there's the small matter of the Atlantic. I've been thinking about doing soething similar over this side...

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the positive input. I certainly wouldn't expect that you come from England just as I wouldn't expect Rich Teer to come from across the North American Continent in British Columbia.

But, hopefully we will be able to put some things to rest and give you personally some of the answers that you have posed to me over the last several months.

Rich