8K discussion thread

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

I give 8K OTA (ATSC 3.0) the highest chance of probability because it doesn't consume so much bandwidth. Having a limited distribution going to city/community nodes for OTA transmission from a network source, reduces qty of servers, because it would be scheduled not UDP content.

I give 8k OTA a zero chance for happening in the foreseeable future. I give 4K OTA a minimal chance except for some extraordinary special events. Broadcasters will primarily be doing 1080p HDR so they can have lots of channels to get increased revenue.

[HDTV1080P]

Every 10 years we see improvements being made in resolution and various other improvements. First comes the displays (projectors and Smart TV’s), then comes the A/V receivers. Then finally the new resolution format that is streaming and then optical disc.

The average consumer upgrades their main home entertainment system every 10 years. I am all for improvements being made in picture and sound quality.

8K optical discs might happen around the year 2026. If not, it is not a big deal. 8K download to a whole house 100TB hard drive server can have just as good of picture and sound quality. 8K streaming with 10Gbps and 1Gbps Internet speed can also be just as good or better then a new 8K optical disc format as long as the video bit rate for streaming exceeds that of 8K optical disc. However there needs to be lossless audio for streaming and there needs to be a quality fast forward, rewind, and slow motion for streaming. Streaming has the worse quality fast forward, rewind, and slow motion when compared to the 480i DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K Blu-ray formats. Also if download and streaming replace optical discs one day then we need the extra features to be offered by download and streaming.

People will see what happens in the years to come.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

There is no simple answer to 8k content trends its not there. Neither is standards.

Keep rubbing that lamp! You can stop when the Genie appears

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Every 10 years we see improvements being made in resolution and various other improvements. First comes the displays (projectors and Smart TV’s), then comes the A/V receivers. Then finally the new resolution format that is streaming and then optical disc.

The average consumer upgrades their main home entertainment system every 10 years. I am all for improvements being made in picture and sound quality.

8K optical discs might happen around the year 2026. If not, it is not a big deal. 8K download to a whole house 100TB hard drive server can have just as good of picture and sound quality. 8K streaming with 10Gbps and 1Gbps Internet speed can also be just as good or better then a new 8K optical disc format as long as the video bit rate for streaming exceeds that of 8K optical disc. However there needs to be lossless audio for streaming and there needs to be a quality fast forward, rewind, and slow motion for streaming. Streaming has the worse quality fast forward, rewind, and slow motion when compared to the 480i DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K Blu-ray formats. Also if download and streaming replace optical discs one day then we need the extra features to be offered by download and streaming.

People will see what happens in the years to come.

You need to borrow John's lamp!

When you deal with the lowest common denominator, your product matches such. No reason to provide more. More costs money.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I give 8k OTA a zero chance for happening in the foreseeable future. I give 4K OTA a minimal chance except for some extraordinary special events. Broadcasters will primarily be doing 1080p HDR so they can have lots of channels to get increased revenue.

This being the first year of ATSC 3.0 efforts for sure. The industry needs to incorporate this into TVs before there can be sufficient justification for pushing it as alternative to current broadcast. Maybe next year with initial consumer observation there might be interest, right now its on nobody's radar.

It reminds one of promoting HD radio while technically superior it was promoted too late for it to compete against alternatives such as satellite radio for mobile/residential usage.

[JohnAV]

Oh Oh he's back again.

Samsung Q900TS/950TS Review: Did 8K Ruin a Great TV? (Flagship 8K TV Review) - YouTube

During my Samsung Q900TS/950TSreview, I concluded that the biggest flaws were likely due to 8K implementation - nothing else could explain why this 8K Flagship TV falls short of last year's 4K flagship! Timestamp below:
0:00 Introduction
1:14 The Good
6:00 The Bad
8:41 Blooming: 8K to blame?
15:01 Reduced brightness: 8K again?
17:31 Alternative Flagship TVs
18:00 Conclusion

[X-rayvision]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Oh Oh he's back again.

Samsung Q900TS/950TS Review: Did 8K Ruin a Great TV? (Flagship 8K TV Review) - YouTube

Lol samsung is dumb as ****, they drop 4k faster than the speed of light for 8k just cause they couldnt one up oled in terms of picture so they go 8k thinking the “higher specs” not the picture itself would sell tvs. I wonder if they made a 4k version ( or had one planned) for the same tv but scraped it cause it looked better than the 8k version. Gotta push that 8k. They should just start making oleds, they did the same shit with dolby vision they have delusions of grandeur, and act like rebels without a cause

[JohnAV]

Why 8K is NOT Pointless - YouTube

There are a lot of videos out talking about why 8K is pointless, but I promise you they're wrong. Here's why 4K vs 8K does indeed make a difference and why 8K is worth pursuing.

This video is sponsored by MediaTek, the leading maker of chipsets for all TVs--regardless of their resolution, by the way
MediaTek is used in 70% of TVs out there

LINKS MENTIONED:
8K vs 4K study
Vernier Acuity Test

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

This being the first year of ATSC 3.0 efforts for sure. The industry needs to incorporate this into TVs before there can be sufficient justification for pushing it as alternative to current broadcast. Maybe next year with initial consumer observation there might be interest, right now its on nobody's radar.

It reminds one of promoting HD radio while technically superior it was promoted too late for it to compete against alternatives such as satellite radio for mobile/residential usage.

Many years ago the standard ATSC 1.0 tuners were mandated by the FCC to be required in every new TV (FCC auctioned off some of the TV spectrum and that is why they became involved and shut down the analog NTSC broadcasts). Mandating ATSC by the FCC is why it became successfully, since there was no other choice when the FCC comes in and says no longer allowed to broadcast in NTSC.

HD Radio makes AM sound like FM Stereo and FM sound close to audio CD’s. However since the FCC never auctioned off any of the AM/FM radio spectrum, they also never mandated HD radio.

ATSC 3.0 might become a niche market unless there is a mandate like there was for ATSC 1.0. However, I do not want a mandate if it means more TV spectrum being auctioned off. There are only so many times that the TV spectrum can be taken away and auctioned off before the free over the air TV broadcast spectrum is all gone.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

The standard ATSC 1.0 tuners were mandated by the FCC to be required in every new TV (FCC auctioned off some of the TV spectrum and that is why they became involved and shut down the analog NTSC broadcasts). Mandating ATSC by the FCC is why it became successfully, since there was no other choice when the FCC comes in and says no longer allowed to broadcast in NTSC.

HD Radio makes AM sound like FM Stereo and FM sound close to audio CD’s. However since the FCC never auctioned off any of the AM/FM radio spectrum, they also never mandated HD radio.

ATSC 3.0 might become a niche market unless there is a mandate like there was for ATSC 1.0. However, I do not want a mandate if it means more TV spectrum being auctioned off. There are only so many times that the TV spectrum can be taken and auctioned off before the free over the air TV broadcast spectrum is all gone.

You have nothing to worry about. ATSC 3.0 from the very beginning has been strictly a voluntary system. Broadcasters do not have to upgrade from 1.0 to 3.0. No mandate from the FCC.

The same goes for TV OEMs. They do not have to provide an ATSC 3.0 tuner in their products.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

You have nothing to worry about. ATSC 3.0 from the very beginning has been strictly a voluntary system. Broadcasters do not have to upgrade from 1.0 to 3.0. No mandate from the FCC.

The same goes for TV OEMs. They do not have to provide an ATSC 3.0 tuner in their products.

But will that be true in 5 to 10 years from now? FCC might want more TV spectrum and say since ATSC 3.0 increases virtual channels with advanced compression, that some of the physical TV spectrum can be auctioned off.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

But will that be true in 5 to 10 years from now? FCC might want more TV spectrum and say since ATSC 3.0 increases virtual channels with advanced compression, that some of the physical TV spectrum can be auctioned off.

First off, ATSC 1.0 began in 1996 with the specific goal to replace analog broadcasting with digital. The FCC mandated that change. It was completed in 2009.

ATSC 3.0 is much more than 1.0. Forget higher resolutions and HDR. It was designed so that it can be received by smart phones with a new chip which will be out later this year. It can also be used to broadcast to automobiles, again with a new and up and coming chip/antenna system. It can even provide IP service with speeds up to 25 Mbps and still leave room for TV broadcasts. 1.0 max is 19.7 Mbps. 3.0 max is 57.8 Mbps.

Again, the FCC has no plans now or in the future to interfere with the spectrum that 3.0 uses. In fact, if 3.0 becomes wildly popular, the FCC will need to look at other spectrum users with the goal of cutting them back and expanding the 3.0 spectrum.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Again, the FCC has no plans now or in the future to interfere with the spectrum that 3.0 uses. In fact, if 3.0 becomes wildly popular, the FCC will need to look at other spectrum users with the goal of cutting them back and expanding the 3.0 spectrum.

With the current management going away in a few months, this is not a wish, we hopefully can get people that look at ATSC 3.0 as a requirement, not a irritant.

[Lee A Stewart]

Commissioner Carr actually ran point on another item on our June agenda: a proposal to spur the transition to ATSC 3.0, the next-generation standard for broadcast TV. The digital TV transition promised to make new digital services available over broadcaster’s existing spectrum, in addition to traditional video programming. However, this potential has never been realized. The ATSC 3.0 standard promises to finally realize the potential for broadcast spectrum capacity to support “Broadcast Internet” services— digital services beyond traditional over-the-air video, integrated into the broadband ecosystem. At our June meeting, we will be voting on a Declaratory Ruling that would clarify how long-standing television station ownership rules apply to the lease of spectrum to provide Broadcast Internet services. This decision would remove regulatory uncertainty that could hinder the development of new innovation using available broadcast airwaves. We will also be considering seeking comment on the extent to which the Commission should clarify or modify its existing rules in order to further promote the deployment of Broadcast Internet services as part of the transition to ATSC 3.0.

https://www.fcc.gov/news-events/blog...ead-and-butter

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

You have nothing to worry about. ATSC 3.0 from the very beginning has been strictly a voluntary system. Broadcasters do not have to upgrade from 1.0 to 3.0. No mandate from the FCC.

The same goes for TV OEMs. They do not have to provide an ATSC 3.0 tuner in their products.

Technically true, but in reality all broadcasters are going to transition to ATSC 3.0 and all TV manufacturers that implemented HDMI 2.1 also integrated ATSC 3.0 decoders/tuners.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Technically true, but in reality all broadcasters are going to transition to ATSC 3.0 and all TV manufacturers that implemented HDMI 2.1 also integrated ATSC 3.0 decoders/tuners.

Would you venture a guess as to how many TVs (not models, production numbers) will be produced in 2020 that will have a 3.0 tuner versus those that do not.

IMO, the lion's share of all TV's produced in 2020 will not have a 3.0 tuner in them. The same will hold for the most part for 2021.

[PaulGo]

8K TV: What you need to know

...8K TV buying advice: Don't

Before we get into the nitty gritty, here's a quick summary of our current thinking regarding 8K TVs.

Unless you have money to burn, don't even consider buying one right now.
From what we've seen, there's very little image quality improvement over 4K TVs.
Any image quality improvement we've seen required sitting very close to a very large screen.
To get the most out of any 8K TV, you need actual 8K content.
There's basically no 8K content (movies and TV shows) available right now and little prospect of any in the next year.
In the next few years 8K TVs will get cheaper and perhaps actually be worth considering.

Now that you've slid your wallet back into your pocket, sit back and soak in everything there is to know about 8K TVs today.

https://www.cnet.com/news/8k-tv-what-you-need-to-know/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Why 8K is NOT Pointless - YouTube

There are a lot of videos out talking about why 8K is pointless, but I promise you they're wrong. Here's why 4K vs 8K does indeed make a difference and why 8K is worth pursuing.

This video is sponsored by MediaTek, the leading maker of chipsets for all TVs--regardless of their resolution, by the way
MediaTek is used in 70% of TVs out there

LINKS MENTIONED:
8K vs 4K study
Vernier Acuity Test

that youtube was published only 2 days ago?
good to see AV bloggers are keeping up, finally - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post15637076


P.S.
oops, sorry, introduced 5 years ago - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post11089290

as to his reference to Mach band, etc., we’ve covered that too on this very thread - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...h#post16861116
with extensive discussion with Geoff D. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...k#post16876745

the fact of the matter is originally those with a heavy vested interest in promoting 8K over 4K tvs, be it marketing reps from Samsung, Sony or LG have essentially backed off from trying to validate it from the standpoint of the human visual system and now are sort of conceding that 8K tvs simply have better stuff (processing, etc.) than their 4K counter parts, which rightly or wrongly, grinds at 4K tv owners

[Robert Zohn]

@Lee A Stewart, I honestly don't know, but I am sure you are correct that the lion's share of 2020 TVs will not have ATSC 3.0 tuners built-in. But a very good number in the millions will have ATSC tuners built-in.

We'll also see several ATSC 3.0 set-top-boxes and USB dongles by Q4, 2020 and I expect tens of thousands to be sold before year end.

@PaulGo, I read CNET's article you posted and I must say I was disappointed and disagree with everything they said. My opinions are not motivated by business, but my knowledge of the advantages that are designed and built-into all of the 2020 8K TVs.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@PaulGo, I read CNET's article you posted and I must say I was disappointed and disagree with everything they said. My opinions are not motivated by business, but my knowledge of the advantages that are designed and built-into all of the 2020 8K TVs.

The question is - is 8K currently worth the price differential. Most of the upgrades could have been built into 4K TVs but the manufacturers perhaps rightly thought they could not get as much return on investment if they did that. They needed something to motivate buyers into ditching their 4K TVs. For some buyers that have a surplus of money to spend it may be now. However, for most 4K owners it is probably prudent to wait a few years. For me I will wait until they come up with advanced sets that have 3D (which may be a long wait).