Yes, Grubert, but this "fantasy" is predicated on the empoverished and malnourished children living in India's shanty towns, and therefore the filmmakers ought to have exercised a bit of judiciousness in how they portrayed the realities there. To us it's a fantasy. To the people of Mumbai it's anything but.
Gremal, you can pick almost any movie ever made and say that it is unrealistic or illogical. Are Bond movies realistic even the grittier two with Daniel Craig? How about the Oscar winning Crash with all its intertwining of its lead characters? Any movie has to have some entertainment value to achieve some success. Most movies are not made to lose money. A friend of mine vacationed in Mumbai two years ago and told me that he saw slums there that were much worse then what was depicted in the movie. If you don't like the movie, fine, but to say that a movie is unrealistic is as I stated, a comment that can be applied to just every movie.
Did you read the post I just made? My criticisms go beyond "it was unrelaistic" into specific reasons I didn't like it. The children of India are exploited. That's bad enough. This movie turned their plight into entertainment based on huge "liberties" taken in the narrative. In other words, a couple brits and hollywood distribution company got rich and got Academy awards based on their story about two such children--a story that I found a bit too distasteful for reasons I mentioned. YMMV but I don't think it makes sense to ignore my points just because Bond movies are not realistic.
Yes, Grubert, but this "fantasy" is predicated on the empoverished and malnourished children living in India's shanty towns, and therefore the filmmakers ought to have exercised a bit of judiciousness in how they portrayed the realities there. To us it's a fantasy. To the people of Mumbai it's anything but.
I don't think anybody is looking at the poverty of Mumbai as fantasy. I think you misread this entire movie.
Several of you said it's a fantasy, above--Grubert's specific word was fairytale--and my comment is addressing that.
The notion that any kid in the slums of India goes through what Jamal, Latika or Salim went through and came out in the end a millionaire winner of a westernized game show...well, i've made my point.
Several of you said it's a fantasy, above--Grubert's specific word was fairytale--and my comment is addressing that.
The notion that any kid in the slums of India goes through what Jamal, Latika or Salim went through and came out in the end a millionaire winner of a westernized game show...well, i've made my point.
Well if you were expecting something completely realistic it's no wonder why you didn't like the movie.
There's a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go between "completely realistic" and Slumdog Millionaire. I'm not saying movies have to be realistic (although where exploited children are concerned it may be a good idea to err on the side of their reality), but if we can't comment on the specific liberties taken by filmmakers, what good are we as viewers?
I'm glad you dropped the religion angle. It wasn't taking us anywhere.
With regard to realism/fantasy, it's no different than, say, Oliver Twist, which also depicted the exploitation of children in extensive detail, and which also saved its protagonist from poverty via a convenient series of contrivances.
Some might like to see a boy from the slum go from rags to riches because he got lucky in a game show.
Yeah, but Oliver Twist is based on a Dickens' story about exploited children in England, not in a former colony of England. You would not have gotten a story like SM from a native South Asian. That was one reason SM felt a bit icky to me.
I didn't drop the religion angle. It just wasn't generating interesting discussion, but I think it is a fascinating topic. India as I'm sure you know has a long history of violence between Muslims and Hindus. Archeologists in India have made their life's work the study of ornate Hindu temples that were destroyed and had mosques built over them. But to watch SM, westerners can come away with the idea that evil Hindu mobs attack poor, innocent peaceful Muslims, orphaning young children. Of course that has happened, and it is horrible, but it is a deceptive piece of a much bigger story.
Salim is cast as the more "Islamic" of the two brothers, and is shown praying. As I mentioned previously, he atones for all transgressions by going out in a blaze of glory saying "God is great", which like it or not indicates a religious message--does it not? Unless you think it's just a random piece of dialog the screenwriter threw in. So there is some sort of religious statement snaking through SM, is there not? I've come to my conclusion about it--you're free to come to yours. It frankly is a fascinating area of discussion I think but not when the conversation is dumbed down to accusations of racism.
Do we see Salim going to extremist Islamist mosques? Chanting hatred mantras? Preparing bombs? Taking part in a massacre against the Hindus in retaliation for the killing of his mother?
Answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gremal
Exactly. That would be too realistic, and the movie shies away from realism for political correctness and entertainment value that bothered me. If it didn't bother you that's fine. I'm not saying it will bother anyone but me--and I have no problem admitting I'm in the minority here.
Greg, here is the problem; by suggesting that a film failing to portray a Muslim as an extremist is unrealistic, you are in effect saying that the norm for the Muslims of Mumbai is Islamic extremism. At the very best this is profiling, and at the very worst...well, that’s been covered. The assumptions made here are not a stretch when the word terrorist is uttered out of the blue with no prompting but the fact that the children are labelled Muslim. You likely wouldn’t call a young Japanese boy being groomed for the Yakuza (Japanese organized crime) a terrorist. These are not semantics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gremal
although where exploited children are concerned it may be a good idea to err on the side of their reality
You also seem to speak with great authority on what reality is like in Mumbai; and although I have never been to that city, I have been to a great number of similar cities around the world, and it seems painfully obvious to me that you haven't spent any significant amount of time there. I have heard the Darravy slum alone is home to nearly a million people, and a significant number of Muslim children. Terrorism is not the norm, but poverty and crime are commonplace. The movie uses this reality as a setting to great effect IMHO.
Greg, here is the problem; by suggesting that a film failing to portray a Muslim as an extremist is unrealistic, you are in effect saying that the norm for the Muslims of Mumbai is Islamic extremism. At the very best this is profiling, and at the very worst...well, that’s been covered. The assumptions made here are not a stretch when the word terrorist is uttered out of the blue with no prompting but the fact that the children are labelled Muslim. You likely wouldn’t call a young Japanese boy being groomed for the Yakuza (Japanese organized crime) a terrorist. These are not semantics.
Thank you. I knew I wasn't the only one here who noticed that.
Salim is cast as the more "Islamic" of the two brothers, and is shown praying. As I mentioned previously, he atones for all transgressions by going out in a blaze of glory saying "God is great", which like it or not indicates a religious message--does it not?
Not necessarily. When a religious person is facing certain death, he will probably invoke protection by his deity. "Allah akhbar" is not a terrorist motto, just like "amen" is not the word for christian holy war.
If this was a Latino drug dealer moments before the final showdown, and he prayed to the Virgin Mary or any of the saints, nobody would be surprised.
Quote:
Unless you think it's just a random piece of dialog the screenwriter threw in. So there is some sort of religious statement snaking through SM, is there not? I've come to my conclusion about it--you're free to come to yours. It frankly is a fascinating area of discussion I think but not when the conversation is dumbed down to accusations of racism.
The way I see it, deep down he knows he's been a bad person for many years, and he seeks forgiveness from God. Which establishes a base for his change of heart at the end of the movie. He can't live after all he's done, but with his sacrifice he can't bring about the happiness of his brother. Pretty classical stuff.
BTW here's a nice little note written by an Indian Muslim, which might throw some light:
As an Indian Muslim movie buff, I was absolutely thrilled when I first heard about Slumdog Millionaire. When I learned that the film was about an Indian Muslim boy growing up in the slums of Mumbai and searching for his long-lost love, my first thought was, “wow, an American or British film that actually doesn’t demonize or stereotype Muslims!” I’ve become so used to seeing standard Hollywood films with Muslim characters that usually deal with post 9-11 politics, terrorism, and the U.S war on terror.
Muslims, Middle Easterns, and South Asians are always slumped together as one big blob with no face, no identity, no personality of their own. Despite our great social, cultural and ethnic differences, Hollywood likes to pigeon-hole Muslims as a pissed off, dark-skinned face with no diversity. Ever since 9-11, there has been a huge surge in Hollywood films dealing with Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S foreign policy, terrorism, and racism. There is almost always a Muslim, South Asian, or Middle Eastern character involved in the story, albeit in a rather negative light.
rarely see positive Muslim characters in any other kind of Hollywood movies, such as romantic comedies or family films. Hence, Slumdog Millionaire was a refreshing change for once. The film is a great introduction for many Americans into the world of Indian Muslims, Indian culture, and the bustling big city of Mumbai. After many Americans watched that tragic scene where Jamal and Salim’s mother was killed in an anti-Muslim riot, they have learned that there have been actual sectarian violence and riots in India between Hindus and Muslims. Many people learned, to their surprise, that India is NOT a 100% homogenous nation with brown people who get along great. There is a lot of racial, ethnic, and religious diversity in India, yet there’s also tension in the air between certain groups. People have discovered that Muslims are just as Indian as Hindus; that Muslims have always been a huge part of Indian culture, despite their existence being ignored by Western media.
Slumdog Millionaire is a story about an Indian Muslim male searching for his long-lost life, but it’s not necessarily about being Indian and Muslim. It’s a human story about a guy who happens to be a poor, dark-skinned Muslim from the slums. Mumbai can easily be replaced with Mexico City or Capetown, South Africa. Jamal Malik can be easily renamed Jose Martinez with a Latin American Catholic background. I really like how the audience is easily able to relate to Jamal, Salim, and Latika.
These characters have stories that almost everyone can identify with. These Muslim characters in Slumdog are portrayed as flawed human beings who yearn for love and family. Jamal’s older brother, Salim, is desperate to make a life for himself, so he becomes a thug and participates in a crime-infested lifestyle. He also prays to Allah, kneeling down in Salat (prayer) despite having a hypocritical lifestyle. He prays because he wants to believe in God, so that he wouldn’t feel hopeless.
Jamal have had a hard life, yet he tries to remain optimistic and hopeful. He believes in romance and love. Without love, life is meaningless. Latika is more cautious and wary. She just wants a simple, secure life, because she’s tired of living a chaotic, hard life. We all know people like those in real life. We’re rooting for Jamal, Salim and Latika because we can almost see ourselves in those characters. All racial, ethnic and religious barriers fall out of the way as we are taken through Danny Boyle’s masterful direction with the story and characters.
Slumdog Millionaire is a great film, a damn good movie. Danny Boyle deserved that Oscar win. It deserved that Best Picture win, too. Not only are the Oscar wins a victory for Danny Boyle and India, but it is also a victory for Muslims. At long last, there is a popular, tremendously well-liked film about Muslim characters that a lot of Americans have seen and can relate to.
lol not touching that conversation with a 10 foot stick taped to a 20 foot pole
i enjoyed this movie, thought it was a good popcorn flick that kept me interested, expected to not like this, and ended up really enjoying it. Didn't expect a documentary but didn't expect it to be like it was either, ended up being pleasantly surprised.
These are not my personal views but word to word reproduction of an article that was written in a Mumbai tabloid by a columnist -
"Slumdog Millionaire is unfair to Hindus
With everyone singing hosannas to Danny Boyle's Slumdog Millionaire, let me offer an alternative perspective. This film targets the easiest of targets: the average placid Hindu. The Hero is, of course, a Muslim in India, whose mother is burned to deathby an attack on Muslims by barbaric, fanatical Hindu mobs. No need for subtlety in either dialogue or depiction here; the Hindu mob says: "They are Muslims. Let us hit them," and the hapless Muslims cry as they flee interror: "The Hindus are coming! The Hindus are coming."
To make sure his point about Hindu devilry is not missed, the Director Boyle has a shot of a child dressed as Rama, one of Hinduism's Most Cherished Gods. Imagine the outcry that would have resulted if Boyle had reversed the above: i.e., had a shot of a child dressed as Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) or Jesus as Muslims or Christians hurried off to persecute members of another faith! But since Hindus seem oblivious to any and every insult, Boyle has not only gotten away with his blasphemies, but seems well on his way to awards and accolades. The sledgehammer hits against Hindus and Hinduism does not end there. On the TV show who wants to be a Millionaire, the (Muslim) Hero is asked aquestion by the TV host: "What weapons does Lord Rama bear in his hands?"Our (Muslim) Hero answers: "If there was no Rama, my Mother would have been alive." Again, imagine the outcry that would have resulted if the Hero was a Hindu from Kashmir and he had said: "If there was no Allah (PBUH), my Mother would be alive." (Islamic terrorism has almost wiped out the Hindu population in Kashmir)
T H I N K....or suffer in silence !!!If it really touches you, don't be silent.
even in the film Delhi 6,they have shown Hindus attacking the Muslims.
Do you know that Chandni Chowk in Delhi has never seen a riot,in 200 years.
why these Hindu directors are doing this?
If they are scared of showing Muslims on the wrong side,they should not show Hindus also on the wrong side. If you raise your voice against Muslim atrocities, terrorist blasts by Muslim youths you are termed communal in India. When will this stop?"
These are not my personal views but word to word reproduction of an article that was written in a Mumbai tabloid by a columnist -
"Slumdog Millionaire is unfair to Hindus
With everyone singing hosannas to Danny Boyle's Slumdog Millionaire, let me offer an alternative perspective. This film targets the easiest of targets: the average placid Hindu. The Hero is, of course, a Muslim in India, whose mother is burned to deathby an attack on Muslims by barbaric, fanatical Hindu mobs. No need for subtlety in either dialogue or depiction here; the Hindu mob says: "They are Muslims. Let us hit them," and the hapless Muslims cry as they flee interror: "The Hindus are coming! The Hindus are coming."
To make sure his point about Hindu devilry is not missed, the Director Boyle has a shot of a child dressed as Rama, one of Hinduism's Most Cherished Gods. Imagine the outcry that would have resulted if Boyle had reversed the above: i.e., had a shot of a child dressed as Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) or Jesus as Muslims or Christians hurried off to persecute members of another faith! But since Hindus seem oblivious to any and every insult, Boyle has not only gotten away with his blasphemies, but seems well on his way to awards and accolades. The sledgehammer hits against Hindus and Hinduism does not end there. On the TV show who wants to be a Millionaire, the (Muslim) Hero is asked aquestion by the TV host: "What weapons does Lord Rama bear in his hands?"Our (Muslim) Hero answers: "If there was no Rama, my Mother would have been alive." Again, imagine the outcry that would have resulted if the Hero was a Hindu from Kashmir and he had said: "If there was no Allah (PBUH), my Mother would be alive." (Islamic terrorism has almost wiped out the Hindu population in Kashmir)
T H I N K....or suffer in silence !!!If it really touches you, don't be silent.
even in the film Delhi 6,they have shown Hindus attacking the Muslims.
Do you know that Chandni Chowk in Delhi has never seen a riot,in 200 years.
why these Hindu directors are doing this?
If they are scared of showing Muslims on the wrong side,they should not show Hindus also on the wrong side. If you raise your voice against Muslim atrocities, terrorist blasts by Muslim youths you are termed communal in India. When will this stop?"
^^^^ two things, the word BLASPHEMY is a SCARY/DANGEROUS word, and this article holds no weight as it was obviously written with religion in mind, TWO every religion is guilty of the same things, and obviously those extremist devoted people will never except their religions portrayed in any kind of bad light, as was stated in this thread, muslims killed hindu's, hindu's killed muslims <---- Obviously to have any kind of religious violence in a movie your gonna bother someone on the other side, case in point the "passion" and the jewish outcry. This was such a small part of this movie it didn't even stand out in my mind till i came to this thread, i saw his mother killed in a religious attack, ok and i moved on, not far fetched, it stood out to me more that they were orphaned in such a violent way then omg those hindu's are so mean to muslims mmkay lol, and i wasn't looking for a history lesson, i was looking for a fun different flick, but of course those with religious stakes will find issue with something like this, and i suggest personal bias is left at the door before viewing this as it was a great movie regardless of your beliefs.
Last edited by krazeyeyez; 04-07-2009 at 01:37 PM.
p.s i thought it was great. considering i didnt even want to watch it in the first place.
+1 lol same here i went into this WANTING to hate it (girls pick ) but ended up liking it alot, didn't even know it was a boyle film till the credits popped up, and i like many of his movies so not surprising i enjoyed this.
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