Psycho (1960) (60th Anniversary Edition) (Uncut)

[Latheofheaven]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Yep, same thing happened with the early James Bond movies when they were redone. These remixes they do today often sound NOTHING like the originals. They try to make them "sexy" and "hip" for young audiences, and add effects that were never there and worst of all they often bury the music, because the modern taste is for score to be almost unnoticeable.

I always make a point of listening to original mixes.

There was a funny moment with the restored Roman Holiday that comes out today. The announcement video has the Paramount lady saying sadly that they couldn't find the original separate audio elements, so they couldn't remix it. I was practically jumping out of my chair cheering when I heard her say that, knowing that they would be unable to ruin the original mix.

Wow, I can really see now how that can screw things up horribly!

Certainly with audio and vinyl, in our discussions we also really try to keep whatever the original intentions were and generally REALLY ridicule revisions in the mixes and such. So, that would be the same principle here.

I guess what I was kind of thinking about before MOST here were very helpful in explaining it. Was sort of like in 'PHANTASM' where they removed the 'yellow pail' and everyone was screaming because that was not 'Original'... But in this case here with an entire soundtrack, that totally makes sense and I agree.

[Latheofheaven]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

The original elements no longer existing means the individual, isolated audio tracks - dialogue, individual effects, atmospheric sounds, music, etc - were not saved. When they mixed the film in 1960 each element would have existed on its own, individual audio recording.

Back then, after they mixed them together into a mono master track, they would often junk the individual elements.

The final mixed mono master survives, it's what has always been used with the film, until this technical mistake.

Oh, I see... So, if the original mono master exists (and is hopefully in good shape) then everything is okay after they go back to it, right...?

[Latheofheaven]

Sooooo, Dr. West....

Why didn't I get a nice, thorough answer from you, huh...? All I got from you was just, 'I didn't like the shower sounds'...???

What... do you have your head far up some corpse's @ss at the moment and couldn't be bothered, or what...?

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Latheofheaven

Was sort of like in 'PHANTASM' where they removed the 'yellow pail' and everyone was screaming because that was not 'Original'...

The pail in Phantasm is still there; it’s just white now to blend in with the floor. I don’t remember people screaming about it though. Maybe as a joke. What some people had an issue with was the CGI ball. I complained a little bit about that since the original version wasn’t included in the Blu-ray but in that case it’s so minimal that it doesn’t really matter IMO.

[Latheofheaven]

Oh, I was also wondering based upon all this...

I have the previous 2010 Universal release I believe it is. Would they have really screwed with the soundtrack there too, or did they provide the original mono then, or did they do any remastering and offer an alternative track but maybe without redoing all the effects?

It's just been so long since I've seen it and I clearly didn't have a clue before this being explained to me anyway, so I was wondering if someone can refresh my memory about how the did the sound with that release?

Oh, and BTW, did they screw with the audio tracks with the other 3 films in this set too?

Thanks!

[Latheofheaven]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

The pail in Phantasm is still there; it’s just white now to blend in with the floor. I don’t remember people screaming about it though. Maybe as a joke. What some people had an issue with was the CGI ball. I complained a little bit about that since the original version wasn’t included in the Blu-ray but in that case it’s so minimal that it doesn’t really matter IMO.

Oh yeah, I remember that! As a matter of fact, IIRC, you were in amongst that discussion at the time

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Latheofheaven

What are audio stems, please...?

A "stem" in sound mixing terminology is an isolated track of sound (dialogue, music, or sound effects) that makes up part of the final mix of a movie or show. The music stem for a film is the final edited master that contains the music exactly (usually) as it's heard in the film; same with the dialogue and effects stems.

Stems are part of the standard delivery when a film is finished (though not sure how long it's been standard). They're used during dubbing for various languages and in marketing materials (promos, trailers). They can also be used for later remixes.

In the case of Psycho, the raw, master recordings of the music have apparently been lost, but the edited music stem still exists, as it was utilized for the remix.

Originally Posted by Latheofheaven

Oh, I was also wondering based upon all this...

I have the previous 2010 Universal release I believe it is. Would they have really screwed with the soundtrack there too, or did they provide the original mono then, or did they do any remastering and offer an alternative track but maybe without redoing all the effects?

It's just been so long since I've seen it and I clearly didn't have a clue before this being explained to me anyway, so I was wondering if someone can refresh my memory about how the did the sound with that release?

Oh, and BTW, did they screw with the audio tracks with the other 3 films in this set too?

Thanks!

The 2010 Blu-ray of Psycho had a 5.1 remix where the revised sound effects were first heard, which seems to be what the new DTS X is based on. The 2010 disc also included the real original mono, and the new discs were supposed to (and now they will).

Vertigo had a remix done in 1996 for its then-new restoration, which similarly contained numerous new effects which were even more distracting than what was done for Psycho. This mix was used on laserdisc, VHS, and DVD. But the 2012 Blu-ray had a new 5.1 remix that put back many of the original effects and was more faithful overall to the original. That seems to be what the DTS X on the UHD is based on, but the original mono is there, too.

Rear Window and The Birds both have just their mono tracks, as there haven't been any multi-channel remixes of either (I don't think, anyway).

Hope that all makes sense!

[tppytel]

Originally Posted by Latheofheaven

I have the previous 2010 Universal release I believe it is. Would they have really screwed with the soundtrack there too, or did they provide the original mono then, or did they do any remastering and offer an alternative track but maybe without redoing all the effects?

My understanding is that the 2010 release does have the original mono. However, it's encoded in lossy DTS rather than lossless DTS-HD or PCM. Also, it was only for the usual (ever so slightly) cut version of the film rather than the uncut version on the new 4K (and the recent Turbine) release.

Practically speaking, I don't think any of that is a massive obstacle to enjoying the film. But still... if you're going to release a presumably definitive, uncut transfer of one of the most iconic films in history, including a lossless original mono stream is not too much to expect.

[Latheofheaven]

Originally Posted by BNex99

A "stem" in sound mixing terminology is an isolated track of sound (dialogue, music, or sound effects) that makes up part of the final mix of a movie or show. The music stem for a film is the final edited master that contains the music exactly (usually) as it's heard in the film; same with the dialogue and effects stems.

Stems are part of the standard delivery when a film is finished (though not sure how long it's been standard). They're used during dubbing for various languages and in marketing materials (promos, trailers). They can also be used for later remixes.

In the case of Psycho, the raw, master recordings of the music have apparently been lost, but the edited music stem still exists, as it was utilized for the remix.



The 2010 Blu-ray of Psycho had a 5.1 remix where the revised sound effects were first heard, which seems to be what the new DTS X is based on. The 2010 disc also included the real original mono, and the new discs were supposed to (and now they will).

Vertigo had a remix done in 1996 for its then-new restoration, which similarly contained numerous new effects which were even more distracting than what was done for Psycho. This mix was used on laserdisc, VHS, and DVD. But the 2012 Blu-ray had a new 5.1 remix that put back many of the original effects and was more faithful overall to the original. That seems to be what the DTS X on the UHD is based on, but the original mono is there, too.

Rear Window and The Birds both have just their mono tracks, as there haven't been any multi-channel remixes of either (I don't think, anyway).

Hope that all makes sense!

Yes sir, excellent thank you!

[Latheofheaven]

Originally Posted by tppytel

My understanding is that the 2010 release does have the original mono. However, it's encoded in lossy DTS rather than lossless DTS-HD or PCM. Also, it was only for the usual (ever so slightly) cut version of the film rather than the uncut version on the new 4K (and the recent Turbine) release.

Practically speaking, I don't think any of that is a massive obstacle to enjoying the film. But still... if you're going to release a presumably definitive, uncut transfer of one of the most iconic films in history, including a lossless original mono stream is not too much to expect.

Now that I understand properly, I agree, thank you!

[litemakr]

Originally Posted by Mystic

I received a similar email after completing the online form, I assume it's only a confirmation email. I hope that Universal will follow up with a request for further information to move the replacement process forward.

I got that then another email today asking for more info:

Dear Customer,

We apologize that you are having difficulty with your copy of Psycho (1960) 4K.

Universal Pictures Home Entertainment is offering replacement discs for Psycho (1960). To receive a replacement disc, please email the following information:
• Your shipping address
• Daytime telephone number
• A copy of your sales receipt
OR a photo of the disc and the packaging

Please send the above requested information to the email address below:
USHEConsumerRelations@visionmediamgmt.com

We hope that you will continue to enjoy this and future Universal releases.

Sincerely,
Consumer Relations
UNIVERSAL PICTURES HOME ENTERTAINMENT

[tppytel]

I got that as well. I sent them the requested info but it was a few hours ago and haven't gotten anything back yet.

[Mystic]

Originally Posted by litemakr

I got that then another email today asking for more info:

Dear Customer,

We apologize that you are having difficulty with your copy of Psycho (1960) 4K.

Universal Pictures Home Entertainment is offering replacement discs for Psycho (1960). To receive a replacement disc, please email the following information:
• Your shipping address
• Daytime telephone number
• A copy of your sales receipt
OR a photo of the disc and the packaging

Please send the above requested information to the email address below:
USHEConsumerRelations@visionmediamgmt.com

We hope that you will continue to enjoy this and future Universal releases.

Sincerely,
Consumer Relations
UNIVERSAL PICTURES HOME ENTERTAINMENT

I haven't received the second follow-up email yet, but then again, it's only been 24 hours since I submitted my request. Hopefully, the turnaround time on everything will be quick, and all of us will receive replacement discs quickly.

[litemakr]

Originally Posted by Latheofheaven

Okay, NOW I can see very clearly what's going on. Heh, TBH, now I'm actually terrified of seeing the the remaster because it honestly seems like it is gonna sound bloody AWFUL!

I really appreciate the thorough and clear explanation. And yes, of course I can see how people would be quite upset, especially with such a vintage absolutely Classic film. Yeah, it really sounds like they totally did screw up. I'm very glad to hear, then, that the company is indeed 'fixing' it.

So, what are they going to do now? A fellow above mentioned that the original elements no longer exist...???

Thanks again Bro, that is why I ask things like that. Hoping for a good honest and educational answer. I get that on the Steve Hoffman Forums most of the time, but here it is a little different. Sometimes people seem to be EXTREMELY quick to slam you no matter how respectfully or politely you ask, rather than just simply answer you. And yours was perfect.

Really appreciate it mate!

No problem, happy to help. As for what Universal will do to fix this, there are plenty of copies of the original 1960 mix because it has been used on every release for the past 60 years. They could literally use the one from the last blu-ray release (which is high quality) and make some edits to accommodate the few seconds of extra footage (which is what they did in the remix). The recordings no longer exist, but the stems (isolated music, effects and dialogue) do exist. Stems are used to create foreign language versions, where the dialogue track is replaced, but the original music and effects are retained. The foreign tracks on the new release have the original music and effects tracks. If the remix had used the stereo music but kept the original effects track, I don't think people would have minded as much.

This has been a problem in a few releases. Superman the Movie and Grease come to mind as also having terrible remixes with radically changed sound effects and music mixes. Fans complained bitterly about those as well and it took years (20 for Grease!) to get the original soundtracks added back to home video releases. Grease no longer even has the remix as an option, but on Superman it is still the default track. The original Dolby mix is there though if you want to hear it.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by litemakr

This has been a problem in a few releases. Superman the Movie and Grease come to mind as also having terrible remixes with radically changed sound effects and music mixes. Fans complained bitterly about those as well and it took years (20 for Grease!) to get the original soundtracks added back to home video releases. Grease no longer even has the remix as an option, but on Superman it is still the default track. The original Dolby mix is there though if you want to hear it.

I wouldn't call Superman's remix "terrible." It's technically very well-engineered. It's just revisionist.

And the Dolby Digital 5.1 track on the UHD (taken from the original 70mm six-track) is the default audio on that disc.

[BluCollector13]

Originally Posted by litemakr

I got that then another email today asking for more info:

Dear Customer,

We apologize that you are having difficulty with your copy of Psycho (1960) 4K.

Universal Pictures Home Entertainment is offering replacement discs for Psycho (1960). To receive a replacement disc, please email the following information:
• Your shipping address
• Daytime telephone number
• A copy of your sales receipt
OR a photo of the disc and the packaging

Please send the above requested information to the email address below:
USHEConsumerRelations@visionmediamgmt.com

We hope that you will continue to enjoy this and future Universal releases.

Sincerely,
Consumer Relations
UNIVERSAL PICTURES HOME ENTERTAINMENT

Just got that one in the mail a few minutes ago. I'll be sending them the necessary documents shortly.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Yep, same thing happened with the early James Bond movies when they were redone. These remixes they do today often sound NOTHING like the originals. They try to make them "sexy" and "hip" for young audiences, and add effects that were never there and worst of all they often bury the music, because the modern taste is for score to be almost unnoticeable.

I always make a point of listening to original mixes.

There was a funny moment with the restored Roman Holiday that comes out today. The announcement video has the Paramount lady saying sadly that they couldn't find the original separate audio elements, so they couldn't remix it. I was practically jumping out of my chair cheering when I heard her say that, knowing that they would be unable to ruin the original mix.

It was never super clear, but you can barely (if at all) make out Norman screaming

[Show spoiler]"I'm Norma Bates" at the climax when he runs into the cellar with the knife

in the new mix. If it weren't for the subtitles, you'd never know he says it.

[litemakr]

Originally Posted by BNex99

I wouldn't call Superman's remix "terrible." It's technically very well-engineered. It's just revisionist.

And the Dolby Digital 5.1 track on the UHD (taken from the original 70mm six-track) is the default audio on that disc.

"Terrible" is subjective, obviously. But the sound effects are radically different, especially on Krypton. And the music balance is way off in places, which I don't consider well engineered. But they did do a nice job of porting over the 6 track mix, you're right about that. On my UHD the Atmos track is the default, though, and that is the remix.

[litemakr]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

It was never super clear, but you can barely (if at all) make out Norman screaming

[Show spoiler]"I'm Norma Bates" at the climax when he runs into the cellar with the knife

in the new mix. If it weren't for the subtitles, you'd never know he says it.

I never knew he said that until I saw a clip of that scene without the music. It's in one of the documentaries.

[Monterey Jack]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Yep, same thing happened with the early James Bond movies when they were redone. These remixes they do today often sound NOTHING like the originals. They try to make them "sexy" and "hip" for young audiences, and add effects that were never there and worst of all they often bury the music, because the modern taste is for score to be almost unnoticeable.

An American Tail hasn't had the original theatrical stereo sound mix since the era of VHS and laserdisc, so we've been stuck with the ghastly 5.1 remix since the initial DVD release in 2004. Not only rife with added "cartoony" sound effects, but also additional background "walla" has been added in pretty much any quiet scene without dialogue, and even some of the voice tracks have been totally redubbed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCgWnA2cprg

It's rendered the movie pretty much unwatchable for anyone remembering what it's "supposed" to sound like. I was hoping the Blu release would have offered the original audio as an option, but no, and I doubt this is the kind of catalogue title Universal's gonna put out on UHD anytime soon.

Here's the opening credits ripped from the original VHS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uflx5nPwcCs

Now, imagine that push-in to the house that accompanies the "directed by Don Bluth" credit overlaid with extraneous human voices chattering away, completely obscuring James Horner's lovely music.