Yamaha 665 vs 663 Opinion Needed

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by callas01

yeah, no prob, the other thing that i saw was that they were talking about pre-outs on the cheaper receivers don't work as well typically either, so it may be worth it to get an elite or sony es or denon 2308/09 and then adding an external amp so that you don't run into the clipping and distortion issues within the AVR.

Just a thought, I think that is what I am gonna do down the road, get a better receiver then an amp...

Yep, that is what I am doing now......starting my research and trying to save enough $$ so I can get both the receiver and amp at the same time.

I really hate upgradeitis......and then there's the WAF factor too.....

[callas01]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Yep, that is what I am doing now......starting my research and trying to save enough $$ so I can get both the receiver and amp at the same time.

I really hate upgradeitis......and then there's the WAF factor too.....

YEP, I am on restriction for a little while from buying anything.... Other then BDs of course, just no equipment..

[DonRSD]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Yep, that is what I am doing now......starting my research and trying to save enough $$ so I can get both the receiver and amp at the same time.

I really hate upgradeitis......and then there's the WAF factor too.....

WTF is a WAF!!??

Originally Posted by callas01

YEP, I am on restriction for a little while from buying anything.... Other then BDs of course, just no equipment..

im kinda on the same restriction BUT if new equiptment 'shows up' how can we refuse it

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by kailashu

A true audiophile will never use the ridiculous YPAO calibration. It is a joke. I don't mean to be rude. I have always been a great fan of YAMMY receivers, but the 663 was such a let down. My non HDMI RXV 659 sounds much more cleaner and powerful than the RXV 663. I am not sure if it has something to do with my unit as I have googled and noticed very few folks complain about lack of bass in the 663's. The SUB level was set to +10. I have LFE set to SBWFR, and have tried BOTH, have tried Fronts on Large and small, and have played with the amp's crossover frequency also, trying 40hz to 160hz. Still nothing.

I tried the YPAO, tried the manual settings....no luck. The current settings on my Denon 1909 is comparable to YAMMY 663. My KEF 3005SE has now all the attitude you'll ever need from an HT system. It is just a pleasure listening to these babies now, blessed with a broad, richly detailed soundfield. The BASS is loud, tight and clean. Even the surrounds are sounding sensational with a tinge of more depth. It's just been a whole new experience altogether especially on Blu, SACD, and FLAC audio landscape. I am just loving every bit of it.

The 663, at least the one I have, was very weak in the bass section. Believe me I have played around with the 663 day and night trying to ascertain the issue. No luck. But i've to admit, things did get a little better, when I made the following changes: Changed from Subwoofer to Both, Connected the LFE preout to Front pre-outs on the receiver, but still no where close to 1909's.

The PURE DIRECT MODE in Denon is just a wonderful experience. It beats the 663 hands down. Just my honest opinion to folks who are contemplating on buying a 663.

My very first Denon product and it is indeed a quality product and lives up to its name. Money well spent.

I certainly concur that YPAO isn't the way to properly setup one's system. YPAO's attempts at PEQ regardless of which curve you select (Natural, Front, or Flat) usually yield poor results. You have answered my question in part then. I had a hunch that was perhaps part of the problem you were having with the V663. Thanks for clarifying that part. I always set the Equalizer set to off and never run YPAO. I measure the speaker distances myself. I set all the speakers to small, cross over Freq=80 HZ, EQ Type Select=OFF, and set the channel levels using a RS SPL meter and a VE calibration BD. I have obtained excellent results. I'm using three external power amplifiers to drive the FL, C, and FR speakers. The surrrounds are powered by the V663 which does quite well.

Setting SWFR to BOTH is not always a good practice. Although it might work sometimes, it can also cause the bass to sound quite boomy or quite thin (lack of bass) depending on how the bass from the fronts and subwoofer interact with another in the room. Better results are obtained by using another dedicated subwoofer which is the purpose for the Subwoofer 1 and 2 pre-outs.

I don't know which V663 you have, but there are no LFE outputs on my V663. LFE is not synonymous with the subwoofer. On mine they are labeled Subwoofer 1 and 2. I hope that's a typo. You stated that you: Connected the LFE preout to Front pre-outs on the receiver.' If you actually did that, I hope you know that whatever you were trying to do, just won't work or do anything useful. I can certainly see why it wasn't anything close to the 1909, in fact it won't be close to a properly setup V663. If OTOH, you connected the subwoofer pre-outs to the multi-channel inputs for front L and R, then all you've done is effectively made your front speakers your subwoofers. I am a bit confused on what you were trying to do there and it is unclear to me what you actually did.

Don't worry, calling YPAO a joke isn't rude. I hate YPAO too. I hope Yamaha comes up with something better or better still, drop YPAO for Audyssey. All I was stating that there is no standard for comparing performance if one receiver is calibrated by YPAO and the other by Audyssey. Even moving the microphone a few inches in either setup, can cause a different result. Your statement clearly shows you definitely understand what I mean.

When comparing speakers, amps, receivers, BD players, and the like, it's really hard to distinguish between true performance differences and the differences due to the placebo effect. Unless the tests are designed to rule out the placebo effect, it's merely subjective and the results will vary from person to person.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I totally agree, as it seems they sacrificed some of the power on the 665 for some additional features instead. Reminds me of the 805 vs 806 debate I've seen here. Especially because the weight difference for the 663 is 8 lbs heavier. In the end, power appears to be a big issue here since they think the internal op-amp doesn't have enough kick to power up an external amp properly before it starts clipping. I was looking at this for the pre-outs and getting an Emotiva or Outlaw amp. Finally, their calculation showing a significant drop in wattage per channel is what finally scared me off. I'm going to look around for the 663 or something like a Pioneer Elite, Denon or Marantz that has a good price point.

Thanks for the article!

Can you elaborate on the bolded bit above?

[kailashu]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

I certainly concur that YPAO isn't the way to properly setup one's system. YPAO's attempts at PEQ regardless of which curve you select (Natural, Front, or Flat) usually yield poor results. You have answered my question in part then. I had a hunch that was perhaps part of the problem you were having with the V663. Thanks for clarifying that part. I always set the Equalizer set to off and never run YPAO. I measure the speaker distances myself. I set all the speakers to small, cross over Freq=80 HZ, EQ Type Select=OFF, and set the channel levels using a RS SPL meter and a VE calibration BD. I have obtained excellent results. I'm using three external power amplifiers to drive the FL, C, and FR speakers. The surrrounds are powered by the V663 which does quite well.

Setting SWFR to BOTH is not always a good practice. Although it might work sometimes, it can also cause the bass to sound quite boomy or quite thin (lack of bass) depending on how the bass from the fronts and subwoofer interact with another in the room. Better results are obtained by using another dedicated subwoofer which is the purpose for the Subwoofer 1 and 2 pre-outs.

I don't know which V663 you have, but there are no LFE outputs on my V663. LFE is not synonymous with the subwoofer. On mine they are labeled Subwoofer 1 and 2. I hope that's a typo. You stated that you: Connected the LFE preout to Front pre-outs on the receiver.' If you actually did that, I hope you know that whatever you were trying to do, just won't work or do anything useful. I can certainly see why it wasn't anything close to the 1909, in fact it won't be close to a properly setup V663. If OTOH, you connected the subwoofer pre-outs to the multi-channel inputs for front L and R, then all you've done is effectively made your front speakers your subwoofers. I am a bit confused on what you were trying to do there and it is unclear to me what you actually did.

Don't worry, calling YPAO a joke isn't rude. I hate YPAO too. I hope Yamaha comes up with something better or better still, drop YPAO for Audyssey. All I was stating that there is no standard for comparing performance if one receiver is calibrated by YPAO and the other by Audyssey. Even moving the microphone a few inches in either setup, can cause a different result. Your statement clearly shows you definitely understand what I mean.

When comparing speakers, amps, receivers, BD players, and the like, it's really hard to distinguish between true performance differences and the differences due to the placebo effect. Unless the tests are designed to rule out the placebo effect, it's merely subjective and the results will vary from person to person.

My rebuttal:

1. "Setting SWFR to BOTH is not always a good practice". Yamaha recommends this setting. For example if you have a floorstander that can handle the LFE signals, by setting it to BOTH, the receiver sends the LFE signals to both the front speakers and sub. Secondly, by setting SUB to BOTH, front speaker to SMALL and by setting your crossover frequency to say 80Hz, you technically send the LFE signals less than 80 Hz to sub since your front speaker has been set to small. The "SUB to BOTH" setting worked just fine in my non-HDMI Yammy 659.

2. "LFE is not synonymous with the subwoofer". Low-Frequency Effects (LFE) is the name of an audio track specifically intended for deep, low-pitched sounds ranging from 3-200 Hz. This track is normally sent to a speaker that is specially designed for low-pitched sounds called the subwoofer or Low Frequency Emitter. So technically from an audio engineering standpoint LFE and subwoofer outputs are one and the same. Basically these outputs will have a LPF (low pass filter) which will block all the HF's (High frequencies) and allow frequencies less than 200Hz pass through them to the intended device.

3. "Connected the LFE preout to Front pre-outs on the receiver":
My bad for the typo. I meant LFE inputs of the sub to Front preouts of the receiver. The KEF HTB2 subwoofer has a LPF too. So by connecting the sub to the front pre-outs of the receiver, all frequencies greater than 200Hz will be blocked by the LPF in the sub. I did notice a slight improvement in BASS when I made the switch.

4. Better results are obtained by using another dedicated subwoofer which is the purpose for the Subwoofer 1 and 2 pre-outs
My thought process here is all you need is one good dedicated sub to rumble your house and generate some decent bass.

Btwn, i like your set up. What external power amps are you using? Additionally, like I had mentioned earlier both the 1909 and 663 have comparable settings (FL +10, FR +10, SW +10, SR +10, SL +10), Tone Controls Bass and Treble +6 respectively in YAMMY. I think the Audyssey Dynamic Volume/EQ setting is making the big difference. There was some decent BASS when I played blu's via the 663, but the BASS was very subdued. Denon is a whole different animal. Even my buddies can't stop complementing the system, just a huge difference in sound quality. The KEF's are finally rocking to their true potential. Additionally, when I replaced my 659 with the 663, I was truly disappointed with the lows. Believe me I sat day and night trying to fix this issue with no luck. Again I am not sure if my unit is faulty, but I have read some folks complain about feeble BASS in 663's in other forums too, bass that is almost non existent.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Can you elaborate on the bolded bit above?

I got it from this article from Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/education...nology/trading

In the section "So Watts The Problem"

About half way down it states, "They usually don't put decent op-amps that have enough output to drive an external power amplification to its full potential without the internal preamp of the receiver first clipping and going into gross distortion." Am I wrong to interpret this to mean that the newer receivers that have sacrificed power for more features to mean they lack the power to properly feed an external amp? I don't want to mislead anyone, including myself.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I got it from this article from Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/education...nology/trading

In the section "So Watts The Problem"

About half way down it states, "They usually don't put decent op-amps that have enough output to drive an external power amplification to its full potential without the internal preamp of the receiver first clipping and going into gross distortion." Am I wrong to interpret this to mean that the newer receivers that have sacrificed power for more features to mean they lack the power to properly feed an external amp? I don't want to mislead anyone, including myself.

Forsberg ~ If you are using an external amp with A receiver All the receiver is doing is sending the amp A signal ! It is not sending Watts to the amp !

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

Forsberg ~ If you are using an external amp with A receiver All the receiver is doing is sending the amp A signal ! It is not sending Watts to the amp !

Yeah, I see what you mean and you're right crazy...this is why I am asking all of these questions now, so I can get all of the stupid ones out of the way first, as the world of pre/pro's and external amps is a very new one to me....LOL!........mmmm.......but isn't this statement above an issue of concern when shopping for a receiver to be used as a pre/pro with an external amp? It left with me with a funny feeling about any receiver I am looking at...

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Yeah, I see what you mean and you're right crazy...this is why I am asking all of these questions now, so I can get all of the stupid ones out of the way first, as the world of pre/pro's and external amps is a very new one to me....LOL!........mmmm.......but isn't this statement above an issue of concern when shopping for a receiver to be used as a pre/pro with an external amp? It left with me with a funny feeling about any receiver I am looking at...

No question is stupid if you are learning about something you don't know .
My 663 is by no means TOP OF THE LINE & it does a great job within my setup.
The issue above I would think would only be A concern if say you are running the amp on the front 3 & running you're surr. off the receiver !
Right know my 2 amps are running my front 3 speakers & my surr. & surr. rears are running off the receiver & I have no issues with CRANKING it !!!

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

No question is stupid if you are learning about something you don't know .
My 663 is by no means TOP OF THE LINE & it does a great job within my setup.
The issue above I would think would only be A concern if say you are running the amp on the front 3 & running you're surr. off the receiver !
Right know my 2 amps are running my front 3 speakers & my surr. & surr. rears are running off the receiver & I have no issues with CRANKING it !!!

Thanks crazy. I got a good bit of more research to do on this, as I want as much of a pre/pro and external amp that can be future proof as possible, so I don't want to break the bank but I don't want to settle on the entry level either....

[DonRSD]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

Thanks crazy. I got a good bit of more research to do on this, as I want as much of a pre/pro and external amp that can be future proof as possible, so I don't want to break the bank but I don't want to settle on the entry level either....

id get an onkyo 806 or somethuing with 110+ watts per channel and youll see you wont need an amp.

why get an amp that does 125watts/channel when my 806 does like 130/channel?

makes no sense to me and, in all honesty.....a waste of money to buy anything AFTER getting an 806 or higher

[aramis109]

LOL, now you've got me all confused as well. I'm not sure what to think of that paragraph you've quoted.

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by aramis109

LOL, now you've got me all confused as well. I'm not sure what to think of that paragraph you've quoted.

I know what you mean. Between that article and the other thread in the Pre/Pro and Amplifiers Forum named "My First Seperates - My Impressions", I think I may be turning away from an external amp for the near future and invest in a "mid" to "higher-end" receiver with good amplification, to go with a much better sub too.

Decisions, decisions......

[zicmubleu]

It is a good article, but I am not sure how you can apply it easily since I don't see preamp output specifications clearly listed on AVR specifications, just the overall output power and the codecs. I am not sure what crazyBLUE meant about the preamp just sending signal and not power, that is closer to being what the processor portion is doing, converting the digital encoded signal into a very low power analog signal. The preamp does have to boost that signal to be useable for the amplification stage and I would assume that is where the headphone jack is tapping into the audio stream as well. Selecting separates would be a tough thing to do I suspect unless you used the manufacturer's recommendations - assuming they give some and then I would think they would recommend their own pre/pro.

[callas01]

Forsberg, I think I would just get a Pioneer Elite like the 03 or a Denon 2809 or possibly the Onkyo 806 and then I don't think you would need to have an amp for the speakers you are pushing (polk t90e's) just like DonRSD suggests.... but that is just me. I know when I get a new receiver in a few years I am gonna look at the Denon equivalent of the 2809 and the Pioneer 03. I think a much better receiver will do you a lot more good then having a cheap receiver with pre-out and an AMP.

[got rice]

Forsberg,
Check this receiver out.Pioneer Elite SC-07 It pretty much breaks it down from top to bottom. Offers the pro's and cons. You can get one of these for $849.99 at 6th ave. Its a non promo offer so you have to call and ask.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by kailashu

My rebuttal:

1. "Setting SWFR to BOTH is not always a good practice". Yamaha recommends this setting. For example if you have a floorstander that can handle the LFE signals, by setting it to BOTH, the receiver sends the LFE signals to both the front speakers and sub. Secondly, by setting SUB to BOTH, front speaker to SMALL and by setting your crossover frequency to say 80Hz, you technically send the LFE signals less than 80 Hz to sub since your front speaker has been set to small. The "SUB to BOTH" setting worked just fine in my non-HDMI Yammy 659.

2. "LFE is not synonymous with the subwoofer". Low-Frequency Effects (LFE) is the name of an audio track specifically intended for deep, low-pitched sounds ranging from 3-200 Hz. This track is normally sent to a speaker that is specially designed for low-pitched sounds called the subwoofer or Low Frequency Emitter. So technically from an audio engineering standpoint LFE and subwoofer outputs are one and the same. Basically these outputs will have a LPF (low pass filter) which will block all the HF's (High frequencies) and allow frequencies less than 200Hz pass through them to the intended device.

3. "Connected the LFE preout to Front pre-outs on the receiver":
My bad for the typo. I meant LFE inputs of the sub to Front preouts of the receiver. The KEF HTB2 subwoofer has a LPF too. So by connecting the sub to the front pre-outs of the receiver, all frequencies greater than 200Hz will be blocked by the LPF in the sub. I did notice a slight improvement in BASS when I made the switch.

4. Better results are obtained by using another dedicated subwoofer which is the purpose for the Subwoofer 1 and 2 pre-outs
My thought process here is all you need is one good dedicated sub to rumble your house and generate some decent bass.

Btwn, i like your set up. What external power amps are you using? Additionally, like I had mentioned earlier both the 1909 and 663 have comparable settings (FL +10, FR +10, SW +10, SR +10, SL +10), Tone Controls Bass and Treble +6 respectively in YAMMY. I think the Audyssey Dynamic Volume/EQ setting is making the big difference. There was some decent BASS when I played blu's via the 663, but the BASS was very subdued. Denon is a whole different animal. Even my buddies can't stop complementing the system, just a huge difference in sound quality. The KEF's are finally rocking to their true potential. Additionally, when I replaced my 659 with the 663, I was truly disappointed with the lows. Believe me I sat day and night trying to fix this issue with no luck. Again I am not sure if my unit is faulty, but I have read some folks complain about feeble BASS in 663's in other forums too, bass that is almost non existent.

Thanks.

Your rebuttal #1 is not quite right because some subwoofers have dedicated LFE inputs which have no low pass fliters (LPFs) in the signal path. It seems you've visited my gallery. Thanks for the nice comments too. (BTW, I will be adding pictures of my external amps very soon perhaps tonight or later this weekend.) Now, back to the BOTH vs SWFR setting: If you saw my photo of my subwoofer plate amp, it has three line inputs: summed L and R inputs; or a single LFE input. The LFE input bypasses the internal plate amp crossover circuitry. The V663 sends the full LFE signal to SWFR when it is selected. So, you are mistaken that I have a hole from 80 HZ to 120 Hz in the LFE signal. In fact in the V663, the LFE signal is never set to a LPF as you seem to suggest. The LFE signal in the V663 bypasses the LPF no matter what crossover frequency you set for the LPF. The bass from the other speakers that are set to small however are in the signal path of the LPF and thus sent to the subwoofer preouts 1 and 2. The LFE is also sent to sub pre-outs 1 and 2 but not by way of the LPFs. More below:

What can happen in some scenarios like the one you mentioned is when you have a subwoofer plate amp or monoblock ampflier that has it's own built in LPFs. IF you use the L / R line inputs in my plate amp for example the signal is in the LPF path. So, yes, if I set the LFP to 80 HZ, the LFE , which is also in that input signal, is going to get filtered at 80 HZ at 12 db/ octave. There will certainly be a hole in the LFE. Then you would want the low frequency setting set to BOTH in that case. Here, you reasoning is correct. If you don't do that then you lost part of the LFE signal depending on where you set the crossover. If you are NOT using the subwoofers internal crossover control, you can set it to max which is usually around 150 Hz to 200 Hz. That's above the 120 Hz max of the LFE signal. It will thus be passed without any effect. Then you can also leave the setting on SWFR in the V663. Yamaha has set it to BOTH by default because not all subwoofer plate amps or monoblocks have the LFE input bypass. BOTH restores the LFE loss in the 'hole' mentioned above because the Front L and R speakers will now be getting the LFE too. So you are partly right and partly wrong. But you gave it good shot though.

Your other 'rebuttals', #2 and #3, aren't rebuttals but rather explanations. You clarified what you meant to say in your other reply. Thanks, I understand what your were trying to say now. As for #4, please go see Big Daddy's subwoofer thread. He explains much better than I can in the few minutes that I have to writing in this post, what the advantages are of having two subs in your HT room. Some HT enthusiast have up to four separate subs. So, based on Big Daddy's write up, I have to disagree with your assertion that one sub is all you really need. I wish I could have another sub, but I have no where to put it.

Your claim that the V663 lacks bass is still unsupported. I have set my Energy towers to large when listening to CD music or BDs having just audio for music and no video. The bass is awesome, tight, detailed, and full. I don't know what has gone amok in you setup with the V663, but something must have. I doubt that you have a defective V663, but that is possible. But in my system, I would probably hear no difference between the Denon 1909 and the V663. They would both sound superb! The only reason I would choose the Denon over the V663 is for more HDMI inputs and Audyssey calibration system.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by forsberg21

I know what you mean. Between that article and the other thread in the Pre/Pro and Amplifiers Forum named "My First Seperates - My Impressions", I think I may be turning away from an external amp for the near future and invest in a "mid" to "higher-end" receiver with good amplification, to go with a much better sub too.

Decisions, decisions......

Trust me, I've talked myself back out of an amp now since I feel like my 805 is currently delivering plenty of power for my listening volume. For me it's save the money and maybe upgrade my set later this year.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by DonRSD

id get an onkyo 806 or somethuing with 110+ watts per channel and youll see you wont need an amp.

why get an amp that does 125watts/channel when my 806 does like 130/channel?

makes no sense to me and, in all honesty.....a waste of money to buy anything AFTER getting an 806 or higher

You mean my 805 does the published 130watts/channel spec into 7 channels. You're 806 does 76 watts in a 7 channel setting. That's why people would want external amplification.