lcd, plasma, digital image,

[j_W73]

I am way behind the times. I have never owned a flat panel tv. The prices are at a point that I can get a large screen and not kill my wallet. My concern is everyone talks about looking for the most killer picture possible.. but everytime I go to look at tvs , even the most top of the line, most expensive tv looks bad to me. I see tons of pixelation and I think you call them digital artifacts .. These are seen mostly in large dark sections or bright spots... they can also be seen when seens transition on tv shows.. but I think that is just the video editing program or something...
is there a tv that doesn't show these digital artifacts and processing..

The production transition pixelation I can deal with .. cause that is inbedded in the tv show or program ... but to be watching a movie and seeing a dark screen with different color greyed and dark artifacts everywhere is unexceptable to me.. digital is supposed to be better but why haven't they developed a way to show a black scene as black..

I don't understand how everyone says the tvs look great when the image just doesn't....

[tntkain]

I imagine alot of what you are seeing has to do with the source, the video loop they are hooked to, have you seen any that are hooked up to a blu-ray player? I have a Sony 46kdlz4100 and I don't experience any bad pictures with the blu-ray, cable is ok most of the time, definitely not blu-ray quality though. I also have no problems with blacks, you have to calibrate your picture settings though.The plasma tv's have good black levels too. What store are you going to to look at the tv's?

[koontz1973]

When you go to a shop, they have everything on one source, and not a great one at that. Get the sales person to show you a variety of TVs with different independent sources, DVD, TV signal and Blu player and PS3. This should sort out any problems with the picture in the shop. And remember, shops do not calibrate there TVs to the way you like them. Any shop worth there salt will spend time with you to make sure you are happy and walk away with what you want. Remember it is your cash, not there's YET.

[j_W73]

. I would agree that it is the source and the whole digital technology.. but this digital technology is supposed to be so great.. I really think it sucks.. even when dvds first came out.. people say they looked so great.. not me.. All i saw was digital pixelation and artifacts during motion and black backgrounds.. I would much rather have an analog signal. I don't like all this digital compression.

been looking all around..I am careful about best buy and other stores that keep it real dark.. where I am goiing to be watching is going to be pretty light.. not direct light but not dark..

I'm not going to be watching blue rays.. just off of dish network.. and some dvds..

so far the best tv I have seen is a 50 inch Samsung plasma a550..
not even the newest lcds looked as good..
also looking at the panasonic TCP50G10.. but I guess a V series is coming out that is supposed to be better..

I guess I am leaning towards plasma as all lcd's that I watch have pixelation and motion bluring.. even the new 120 hz with all the bells and whistles..

I guess the pioneers are the best but still a little expensive for my liking.. There are some cheap cheap tvs that look horrible.. but there are some 900 -1100 range tvs that I think look pretty good..
sometimes I think I might as well just spend the least amount of money if a more expensive tv is still gonna look like cr*p.

There has to be an end all be all best lcd and best plasma.. what is it??
Also, what tv looks the best in non HD.. cause I have seen some that look good in HD but absolutely horrible when they aren't.

[j_W73]

Originally Posted by koontz1973

When you go to a shop, they have everything on one source, and not a great one at that. Get the sales person to show you a variety of TVs with different independent sources, DVD, TV signal and Blu player and PS3. This should sort out any problems with the picture in the shop. And remember, shops do not calibrate there TVs to the way you like them. Any shop worth there salt will spend time with you to make sure you are happy and walk away with what you want. Remember it is your cash, not there's YET.

the other problem is that I know more than the people working there...
I've only found one guy at a circuit city( before they were closed) He answered every question I had and threw in some "inside" info that most consumers don't think about.. recommended different tvs and showed me the pros and cons and value/dollar aspect.. told me what he was getting .. and what he would get if he had unlimited funds.. and why..
good customer service and people that know their product is hard to find...

most places just tell you model Z is better than A and a $2500 is better than a $800 tv.. gee thanks...

[lojack1976]

Motion blur is one of the main reasons I went from being pro-LCD to pro-plasma. Plasmas just don't have that problem. As for the artifacts you're seeing it is definitely due to the source. The biggest culprit is usually 1080i signals which is probably what you're seeing in the store. HD broadcasts over the air and over satellite are not 1080p, but 1080i which 95% of 1080p TV's process horribly. I know the Best Buy near me uses over the air signals on their TV displays since I had to program a TV that was on display without any channels available.

The problem with 1080i is that it has to be de-interlaced, down-converted to a lower resolution, and then up-converted to 1080p. Its a more involved process that will cause artifacts all over the place on a 1080p TV. This is very evident when watching fast motion during NFL games over the air since they are broadcast in 1080i. You shouldn't see artifacts with any other signal since there isn't any lengthy processing involved. Check out a Blu-ray movie and you shouldn't see any artifacts unless the movie is a bad transfer. Avoid Gangs of New York for instance. There are artifacts and halos flying around everywhere. Check out something that is reference quality or near it like The Golden Compass or Layer Cake. The Fall and Pan's Labyrinth are other good discs to make an assessment with.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by j_W73

the other problem is that I know more than the people working there...
I've only found one guy at a circuit city( before they were closed) He answered every question I had and threw in some "inside" info that most consumers don't think about.. recommended different tvs and showed me the pros and cons and value/dollar aspect.. told me what he was getting .. and what he would get if he had unlimited funds.. and why..
good customer service and people that know their product is hard to find...

most places just tell you model Z is better than A and a $2500 is better than a $800 tv.. gee thanks...

Well, it is true....that you get what you pay for, but these days there are many good sets that can be had for very good prices. You mentioned that you liked the Samsung plasma which is a very good set. I personally think Panasonic is a little better overall mostly because black level is better, but the Samsung is still very good. You can get a 50" 1080p Samsung or Panasonic plasma for around $1300-$1500 at Best Buy which is pretty affordable. You're going to have salesman after salesman trying to push an LED based LCD on you. Every Best Buy and Sears I've been to in the last few weeks had salesmen trying their best to push one on me.

They're great sets, don't get me wrong, but the prices are just ridiculous. When you can get a $1500 50" plasma that's just as good or better than the 46" LED that they're trying to push for $2500 it just doesn't make sense. In fact, the Panasonic G10 is better than any LED based LCD out there. Another thing that irritates me with LCD's is the viewing angle. If you are not viewing the set directly from the front center the picture will start to wash out, so in my opinion there aren't any LCD's that are better than plasmas. Just my opinion as others may not be bothered by this effect as I am. There are pluses and minuses to both technologies, but overall plasma is the best way to go IMO.

[koontz1973]

Got myself a LG 42inch LCD. The picture in the store was fantastic so imagine my disappointment when I get it home and find all of the motion blureness. Asked a few people on this site and they recommended some fine tuning and a change of settings. Absolutely no problems now. The picture is perfect and better than my dads plasma. This site is a wealth of knowledge, so like me, use it. Thanks guys.

[j_W73]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Well, it is true....that you get what you pay for, but these days there are many good sets that can be had for very good prices. You mentioned that you liked the Samsung plasma which is a very good set. I personally think Panasonic is a little better overall mostly because black level is better, but the Samsung is still very good. You can get a 50" 1080p Samsung or Panasonic plasma for around $1300-$1500 at Best Buy which is pretty affordable. You're going to have salesman after salesman trying to push an LED based LCD on you. Every Best Buy and Sears I've been to in the last few weeks had salesmen trying their best to push one on me.

They're great sets, don't get me wrong, but the prices are just ridiculous. When you can get a $1500 50" plasma that's just as good or better than the 46" LED that they're trying to push for $2500 it just doesn't make sense. In fact, the Panasonic G10 is better than any LED based LCD out there. Another thing that irritates me with LCD's is the viewing angle. If you are not viewing the set directly from the front center the picture will start to wash out, so in my opinion there aren't any LCD's that are better than plasmas. Just my opinion as others may not be bothered by this effect as I am. There are pluses and minuses to both technologies, but overall plasma is the best way to go IMO.

So panasonic has better blacks than samsung now.. I thought that samsung was the leader in blacks.. I didn't know much about panasonic until I started researching...Last I was looking a while ago it was sony or samsung.. now it seems that panny is there and maybe even lg.. the sonys I have seen I haven't been impressed with at all and the pricetag was really high also..

my other pet peeve is the new LED LCDs.. that goes back to me knowing more than the salespeople.. they were trying to tell me that the "LED" tvs are all little leds now.. not lcd.. I'm pretty sure that the LEDs that are out now are LCD tvs with a LED light source for the backlight..
The actual OLED tvs that are 3 credit cards thick , I don't think are out in the masses yet.. and not at 1800 - 2500 price range..
I think the whole LED LCD thing is just a scam cause some people have heard that LED is the next wave so now they are trying a little bait and switch tactic selling these LED LCD's as OLEDs...

They are thinner a bit and not as warm, but I don't notice much difference.. I guess they are supposed to be brighter and a bit cleaner color??

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by j_W73

So panasonic has better blacks than samsung now.. I thought that samsung was the leader in blacks.. I didn't know much about panasonic until I started researching...Last I was looking a while ago it was sony or samsung.. now it seems that panny is there and maybe even lg.. the sonys I have seen I haven't been impressed with at all and the pricetag was really high also..

my other pet peeve is the new LED LCDs.. that goes back to me knowing more than the salespeople.. they were trying to tell me that the "LED" tvs are all little leds now.. not lcd.. I'm pretty sure that the LEDs that are out now are LCD tvs with a LED light source for the backlight..
The actual OLED tvs that are 3 credit cards thick , I don't think are out in the masses yet.. and not at 1800 - 2500 price range..
I think the whole LED LCD thing is just a scam cause some people have heard that LED is the next wave so now they are trying a little bait and switch tactic selling these LED LCD's as OLEDs...

They are thinner a bit and not as warm, but I don't notice much difference.. I guess they are supposed to be brighter and a bit cleaner color??

Pioneer is the leader in "blacks" . The 9G Kuro runs around 0.000fL-0.001fL as far as black goes. 0.000fL is as dark as it gets, which in turn translates into the best ANSI (REAL CONTRAST) contrast ratio's , & not the 2,000,000.1 bull that other company's use to real you in... OLED will be even better, one day....hopefully sooner than later.

[Blu-Raider]

I'm not going to be watching blue rays.. just off of dish network.. and some dvds..

Certainly no offense intended, but you need to consider your source material before dropping a wad on an expensive flat-panel-anything.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by j_W73

So panasonic has better blacks than samsung now.. I thought that samsung was the leader in blacks.. I didn't know much about panasonic until I started researching...Last I was looking a while ago it was sony or samsung.. now it seems that panny is there and maybe even lg.. the sonys I have seen I haven't been impressed with at all and the pricetag was really high also..

my other pet peeve is the new LED LCDs.. that goes back to me knowing more than the salespeople.. they were trying to tell me that the "LED" tvs are all little leds now.. not lcd.. I'm pretty sure that the LEDs that are out now are LCD tvs with a LED light source for the backlight..
The actual OLED tvs that are 3 credit cards thick , I don't think are out in the masses yet.. and not at 1800 - 2500 price range..
I think the whole LED LCD thing is just a scam cause some people have heard that LED is the next wave so now they are trying a little bait and switch tactic selling these LED LCD's as OLEDs...

They are thinner a bit and not as warm, but I don't notice much difference.. I guess they are supposed to be brighter and a bit cleaner color??

Panasonic used to be the black leader until Pioneer released their 8th generation sets that surpassed anything that was out. It was a real breakthrough in plasma technology. Panasonic has managed to improve their sets every generation, but they've yet to take the crown back from Pioneer. In all reality there's no surpassing Pioneer in black level because they are 0.000fL-0.001fL. It gets no blacker. The latest Panasonic's are 0.006fL if I'm not mistaken. That's pretty close, but the best Panasonic can do in the future is match Pioneer which is virtually perfect in regards to black level. No other TV has gotten as close to Pioneer...well none that were professionally reviewed...as Panasonic has. I do wish their were some reviews that measured the Hitachi's because from what I've seen they at least match the G10.

Samsung has at the least caught up with last year's Panasonic's which is a good accomplishment, but this year's Panny's are only surpassed by Pioneer. LG has made strides, but they are more along the lines of Samsung. My mother actually purchased one of the new LG's just last weekend, but she had so much light coming in the house I couldn't really make a good assessment. I know last year's were on the same level as Samsung's, but since Samsung has at least caught up with last year's Panny's they may have the edge over LG. The next time I visit my mother I hope to check it out at night and get a better idea as to whether they significantly improved their blacks over last year's. One thing I do like about the LG is the menu. There are so many adjustments it just puts Panasonic to shame. I can't for the life of me understand why Panasonic limits the menu so much.

Its funny that mention how the salesman was trying to steer you toward an LED based LCD after I mentioned my experience. They are really trying to push these sets. I think its because of the high margin they get off of them right now since its the latest craze. The bottom will fall out of those prices sometime this year. I'm sure of it. Yeah, they look good, but Samsung has made some huge improvements to their regular LCD's and I don't think the average person is going to be willing to pay such a premium for the LED based sets. Most people aren't as concerned with picture quality as someone such as yourself. I was standing in Best Buy looking at a Pioneer and a G10. There was a guy and his wife looking at a Samsung and a Sony LCD setup right beside them and what did they choose? The Sammy. This particular Samsung was clearly inferior to the Sony that was only $100 more. Then I heard the guy tell the salesman, who was suggesting the much larger and better G10 going for roughly the same price, that he would never buy plasma.

[j_W73]

Originally Posted by Blu-Raider

Certainly no offense intended, but you need to consider your source material before dropping a wad on an expensive flat-panel-anything.

What is the best regular tv content source? That will be the thing that I watch most. Right now we have standard dish.. I plan to get the HD when I get the tv. Do they provide true 1080 HD?

Who will be the best? I will go with whoever has the best picture.

Right now , the regular dish has tons of artifacts on a regular CRT.

[j_W73]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Pioneer is the leader in "blacks" . The 9G Kuro runs around 0.000fL-0.001fL as far as black goes. 0.000fL is as dark as it gets, which in turn translates into the best ANSI (REAL CONTRAST) contrast ratio's , & not the 2,000,000.1 bull that other company's use to real you in... OLED will be even better, one day....hopefully sooner than later.

I heard panasonic made the some of the kuros pioneer panels . Is this true??

[j_W73]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Its funny that mention how the salesman was trying to steer you toward an LED based LCD after I mentioned my experience. They are really trying to push these sets. I think its because of the high margin they get off of them right now since its the latest craze.

but are they the latest craze..? it is just a differen't light source.. the guys at bestbuy were trying to sell it as each pixel was an led.. either intentionally or just being stupid and not knowing any better. So at that point I just refused to talk to anyone else in the store because I couldn't trust any of the information they might give me.

again.. thanks for the help.. I'm new to this and a perfectionist.. but a tight wad...hahaha..

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by j_W73

but are they the latest craze..? it is just a differen't light source.. the guys at bestbuy were trying to sell it as each pixel was an led.. either intentionally or just being stupid and not knowing any better. So at that point I just refused to talk to anyone else in the store because I couldn't trust any of the information they might give me.

again.. thanks for the help.. I'm new to this and a perfectionist.. but a tight wad...hahaha..

I feel everything you've said. Its all marketing. With TV sales tanking and prices dropping the manufacturers are trying to come up with everything under the sun to pump up sales and justify higher prices. I've heard people talk all of this LED stuff quite a bit, but they don't realize that at best these TV's equal the average plasma's overall performance. They do beat out the typical LCD, and the local dimming LED sets(some of the better edge lit too) can rival plasmas, however the best plasmas are still better and cheaper. Right now the cheapest LED set that I've seen is the LG 47" model. Its local dimming and the price fluctuates, but TigerDirect has it for $1900 shipped right now which is a pretty good deal. Keep in mind that you can get a 50" Pioneer for about $2000 though. A 54" Panny can be had for that too. The 50" G10 is just $1500 so LED at that price is still a bit high.