Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I have a reference volume level that I don't have to adjust for DTS tracks.

Turning off DRC is not a "button push" on any device I own. Further, I'm astounded that anyone would suggest that DRC being engaged should be a default of any kind. Ever. You should have to turn it ON, as well as the nonsensical dialnorm thing.

I agree. I just don't get why receivers mandate to an automatic DRC status? It should be something where the default is OFF and if you choose to enable it, then you could. I also feel that dialnorm should have an option to turn off as opposed to turning up the volume. It should be defeatable.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by davcole

I agree. I just don't get why receivers mandate to an automatic DRC status? It should be something where the default is OFF and if you choose to enable it, then you could. I also feel that dialnorm should have an option to turn off as opposed to turning up the volume. It should be defeatable.

It's to protect those who don't bother to read the instructions from high volume transients.

Keep in mind something like 40% of the general public will assume something is HD simply because it's playing on a HDTV. Or they pick up a fullscreen DVD because "I don't have a widescreen TV"...

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

At one point, I left this thread when the rants started.

Question: If you had two identical source tracks, but one had sound compression and volume reduction attached to it, would you still call it lossless?

Absolutely, it's called metadata. The same exists for id3 tags on .flac files.

Lossless is lossless.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by RiseDarthVader

Now people are using DRC as an argument against Dolby. DRC is "optional" all you have to do is turn it off on your player and receiver and your good to go. As for dialnorm to fix that up usually you just turn the volume up by 4db because thats why people feel Dolby is queiter. The tracks encoded in Dolby are reduced in volume at 4db.

Why "have to do" it at all?

"All you have to do to get rid of the albatross around your neck..."

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

If you're saying DialNorm degrades the sound quality, then I'd say you misconceived what it is. Same with DRC.

Of course it degrades the sound quality. It's not the same as the source material; I can't figure out how I've "misconceived" anything.

If there is no difference between the PCM track, and the uncompressed track, it's lossless. This should be the default.

Any changes to the PCM track playback is a distortion of it, and I'm surprised at all of the insults (not from you, of course) that accompany the discussion of this simple fact.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Absolutely, it's called metadata. The same exists for id3 tags on .flac files.

Lossless is lossless.

If the metadata automatically introduces distortion in playback - and I'm saying that DRC and Dialnorm are distortion of the source material - do you still call it lossless?

This place is starting to sound like a courtroom. Let's drop all the legal eagle stuff; if dynamic range or volume varies on playback, it's not lossless.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

It's to protect those who don't bother to read the instructions from high volume transients.

Keep in mind something like 40% of the general public will assume something is HD simply because it's playing on a HDTV. Or they pick up a fullscreen DVD because "I don't have a widescreen TV"...

My Pioneer Elite's "night mode" will compress any audio source from transient spikes in sound. I never use it.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

...we can discuss which format is better until we are blu in the face, but the MOST important part of your system is your speakers...immediately following this is your amplification. True and Master will sound identical on about 98%of your systems on this forum, only because I doubt your systems are up to par with the reference studios that mixed the tracks. How may of you guys have seperate amplifiers and full range speakers?...or how about a subwoofer that can play below 20hz? All of this equipment is necessary in order to hear the full capabilities of a Lossless track.
The bottom line is that if you haven't invested in a " high end " surround system, you will not be able to hear a diiffernce between any of the new formats.
I'd define " high end " as a system worth $10,000 or more for just the audio components. If you are working with a " budget system " then don't expect to hear anything better than what you are accustomed to with a superbit DVD.

Anyone else on the same page as me??

Bri

No, you're on the wrong page.

[hardcorefrokid]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

My Pioneer Elite's "night mode" will compress any audio source from transient spikes in sound. I never use it.

My Harman Kardon does it too, and I never use. If I am going to watch a movie late at night I use headphones.

[davcole]

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm getting a sense that DRC and a feature like Dialnorm are of no interest to the majority of users here. I'm not sure i've read any end user that's voice a real need for these two features.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm getting a sense that DRC and a feature like Dialnorm are of no interest to the majority of users here. I'm not sure i've read any end user that's voice a real need for these two features.

DRC has its place - late night viewing that doesn't disturb others, apartment residents, people with hearing issues.

Dialnorm is part of what seems to be a largely failed attempt to level "normal" playback levels. There are lots of complaints about widely varying volume levels when changing sources or programs, especially with broadcast applications. I think we'd all support a system that actually produced consistent playback levels.

But, at the end of the day, this stuff seems pretty trivial. If you don't like DRC, turn it off in your player(s) and AVR. You do that once and never have to deal with it again. If a track is encoded with a dialnorm offset (that's not always the case), turn up the volume a little. Most of us adjust the volume at the start of a program anyway.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

If the metadata automatically introduces distortion in playback - and I'm saying that DRC and Dialnorm are distortion of the source material - do you still call it lossless?

This place is starting to sound like a courtroom. Let's drop all the legal eagle stuff; if dynamic range or volume varies on playback, it's not lossless.

You're saying the OPTIONAL DRC is adding distortion to the track? And that the 4db difference in a DialNorm track is bad because you have to turn up your sound? Don't get me wrong, I wish they wouldn't DialNorm the tracks since most people don't understand it anyway, but I'd hardly say Dolby TrueHD is inferior.

Besides, didn't DTS used to mix their tracks 4db above reference level? It's pretty much the same thing but in the oposite direction.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

This place is starting to sound like a courtroom. Let's drop all the legal eagle stuff; if dynamic range or volume varies on playback, it's not lossless.

I think you're failing to understand that processing of the signal doesn't negate the fact that it's lossless. Remove the processing and the problem is solved, which is done easily by changing a setting.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BIslander

But, at the end of the day, this stuff seems pretty trivial. If you don't like DRC, turn it off in your player(s) and AVR. You do that once and never have to deal with it again. If a track is encoded with a dialnorm offset (that's not always the case), turn up the volume a little. Most of us adjust the volume at the start of a program anyway.

With respect, that may be the problem, in that it seems trival for some but not trivial for others.

As we all know "perception is the reality" for a lot of people and I think that's being expressed by a lot of people here. I think this is also a perfect reason why this poll was created and this thread started to discuss. Now people can argue science and exacts all they want, but what is Dolby going to do with the "perception" of this reality is the real question at hand?

In many's minds "dts" sounds better, even if it's not scientifically true and in many people's minds they feel as if it's an easier codec from an "end user" perspective. You load it and play. This is what is being expressed by many in this poll. What can Dolby do to change the thinking is the question they must ask?

Let's face it, if it were only about financial incentives for the studios, Dolby's got enough money to buy dts out probably twice over, however the real situation is that the following studios have gone exclusive DTSMA for their lossless codec:

Fox/Mgm
Universal
Disney
Lionsgate
Image
Criterion
Eagle Rock
Universal Music

You have Sony actually considering a change and unless there's a typo on the back of the WATCHMEN box, Warner is a releasing one disc with DTSMA as the sole lossless/lossy English language track. There has to be something going on, wouldn't you agree?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by davcole

With respect, that may be the problem, in that it seems trival for some but not trivial for others.

None of this is "plug and play". When you buy a player and a receiver you have to figure out what connections to use and what settings are needed on each device to facilitate/optimize the sound. Many people don't do that, of course, and end up watching and listening to inferior outputs as a result.

Meanwhile, DTS has Master Audio Essential decoding that's being used in most players. I see many more posts from people who can't figure out why they get no sound from their rear speakers with DTS-ES disks than from people complaining about DRC. With an Essential decoder, there's no setting to get it working, either. You have to run a second, connection to your AVR for that.

DTS appears to be mandating rear channel duplication for 5.1 dts-MA sources on 7.1 systems. So, people who want to use a sophisticated DSP such as PLIIx and Logic7 can't do so. They're stuck with duplicated rears instead.

And, depending on your receiver, you may not be able to apply a DSP or EQ at all with a dts-MA track. The processing power required to do the decoding is all that some AVRs can handle.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by davcole

Maybe i'm wrong but i'm getting a sense that DRC and a feature like Dialnorm are of no interest to the majority of users here. I'm not sure i've read any end user that's voice a real need for these two features.

That's certainly my point of view. I have no problem with any lossless codec, including TruHD, unless they're doing something to my equipment on playback.

The whole "push the button and the problem goes away" comments don't feed the bulldog. I have never liked "opt-out" scenarios - including popups on web pages, the "no-call list" for telephones, or putting up threatening signs to warn off salesmen and soul-savers at my front door.

Paying money for a movie, and then fiddling with my equipment (built to accomodate these codecs, by the codec builder's specifications, mind you) to get it to do "lossless" playback as the sound engineer designed it, is just plain frustrating.

I note with interest that some person here was questioning the intelligence of people who didn't know why a "lossless" soundtrack sounded muffled, as everyone is supposed to know that Dolby scalped the sound on some soundtracks with DRC. Never mind dialnorm - no telling when that kneecapper is invoked, or how to turn it off.

Something about the terminology is just completely sideways in this discussion. If TruHD was to do what it's supposed to do - play back lossless, like the original track, without hand-cranking a bunch of settings - I would have absolutely no problems with it.

[rded]

Originally Posted by Krelldog1977

...we can discuss which format is better until we are blu in the face, but the MOST important part of your system is your speakers...immediately following this is your amplification.
Bri

I'm with you Bri.
What's wrong with DD TRUE HD?? As long as the movie soundtrack is recorded and mixed properly does it really matter? Hell, Gladiator(regular DTS-ES) still sounds just as good most of my BDs

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

But, at the end of the day, this stuff seems pretty trivial. If you don't like DRC, turn it off in your player(s) and AVR. You do that once and never have to deal with it again. If a track is encoded with a dialnorm offset (that's not always the case), turn up the volume a little. Most of us adjust the volume at the start of a program anyway.

Why not just ditch TruHD for DTS-HD MA? Unless you have stock in Dolby or something.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

You're saying the OPTIONAL DRC is adding distortion to the track?

Nope. See Iron Man for details. I'm saying that DRC being off should be the default; further, I think there should be a menu selection on the sound choices to engage it, if someone sees value in it. I sure don't, and don't understand people who do.

Every playback device in existence has a volume knob. Every receiver I've purchased for the last fifteen years has a "night mode", too.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

And that the 4db difference in a DialNorm track is bad because you have to turn up your sound?

Absolutely; it's an idiotic idea. Why do it? Why throttle back the signal, for crying out loud? What is any possible good reason to cut back the signal by 4DB? Why not simply leave it at the PCM track reference level?

It makes no sense, and this attenuation of the signal, by definition, is not "lossless". It's clearly an attempt to make Dolby the proprietary format - "I set my sound levels to the Dolby standard", or some such nonsense - and arguing that sound attenuation is "lossless" either is an attempt to redefine normal English terms, or is just plain prattle.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Don't get me wrong, I wish they wouldn't DialNorm the tracks since most people don't understand it anyway, but I'd hardly say Dolby TrueHD is inferior.

I don't have a problem with any system that is truly lossless, which people I respect say is the case with Dolby. Further, if they'd lose all thee corporate shenanigans to make it a "must have" standard, I'd have a much more tolerant attitude, though the lossy core in DTS is clearly superior to lossy Dolby sound.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Besides, didn't DTS used to mix their tracks 4db above reference level? It's pretty much the same thing but in the oposite direction.

I"ve never heard of any "dialnorm plus" modes for any DTS codecs, but if true, I'd be equally derisive. It's a stunt; I don't like stunts, especially if they're delivered with a Pee-Wee Herman "I meant to do that" delivery.

[Hunter]

Actually I believe that Sony masters their TrueHD tracks at -31 db which basically disables dialnorm, the default is -27 db. So no sense in debating about dialnorm on Sony BDs.