Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I see a label, it says, Lossless Audio. I play the content, and it's not Lossless Audio. Calling me ignorant (or whoever you're referring to, maybe it's everybody that voted DTS on this poll) won't make it Lossless Audio. Cranking up the volume and flipping switches, makes it pretty close to Lossless Audio.

It's definitely Lossless Audio when it's delivered without all that stuff glued to it, which I guess are features you like.

So what you're saying is that any CD that comes with text, or any .flac files that have id3 tags, are not lossless? I don't think you understand what metadata is.

Dolby needs to go the straightforward, turn this on if you need it path. They haven't done it, haven't been straight about their product, and I prefer not to use it for those reasons. I wasted considerable time trying to figure out why Dolby sounded like crap; I have other things to do with my time than try to figure out how to disable features I don't need, and am not informed about.

They can do better, and if they do, I won't have a problem with them.

But isn't that exactly what they have done? Don't Sony turn DN off on their discs? Isn't that because Dolby has presented them with a "turn this on if you need it path"?

[davcole]

Originally Posted by odin24

I'm on the fence with this debate, I like either codec as long as it is encoded/mixed well. A TrueHD track mixed can sound leagues ahead of a poorly mixed DTS HD-MA, and vice versa. At the moment both of my kids are hooked on KungFu Panda, a 24 bit TrueHD track that KICKS ACE (and is without dialnorm). They are also into Bolt and A Bug's Life... also ACE kicking tracks... both DTS HD-MA, so it doesn't really matter, use either IMO.... none of which are Sony . Fifth Element, CJ7, and Res Evil Extinction... all good surround movies, all Sony, all with TrueHD/and dialnorm.

I have to agree about Kung Fu Panda.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I can see it now - the double blind test, identical equipment right out of the box.

Same movie popped into both rigs, one in Dolby, one in DTS. The audience listens up.

Everybody like DTS. So a swarm of Dolby labcoats get busy, twiddling the knobs on the receiver, running around with SPL meters, shouting "hey, does WIDE mean OFF or what" while some guy answers, "who the heck knows, Sam took the manual with him to the restroom" and finally, "go on blu-ray dot com, somebody there probably already figured this thing out" until finally everything is set.

The DTS guys are sitting back, having a drink, one of them falls asleep...

The audience is watching all this, and finally, the retest. Both systems sound identical. Finally the audience is asked, "well, which system would you prefer?"

See the poll numbers for the results.

Ah, the old dts is just pure audio argument. Never mind the fact that they have things in their codec like different 7.1 channel configurations that none of the current hardware supports. I don't have any dts parameters on my equipment if my back surrounds are 60deg or 90deg behind me, yet these parameters have been used on some 7.1 dts tracks that have caused hardware to downmix or throwaway the additional channels for 5.1 output.

Dolby has done far more to advance technology for music reproduction than dts. Dolby has a much stronger track record. Dolby provides working product on time. dts has a history of providing buggy product behind schedule.

Again I don't care which one they use, but DolbyTrueHD was on both HD disc systems very early in the product lifecycle. Although dtsMA was on early blu discs it was nearly a year before anyone could use them and then BANG (and this was not a hardware issue, dts provides the code to the licensee, dts did not test it adequately), then why is my 7.1 MA track only playing back at 5.1, etc.

DolbyTrueHD has been reliable for me since day 1.

[CYMBOL]

The people have spoken! DTS HD!!!

Whew! Glad we got that settled.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

So what you're saying is that any CD that comes with text, or any .flac files that have id3 tags, are not lossless? I don't think you understand what metadata is.

How odd you should ask this question. If i'm not mistaken, you and I discussed this in another forum section some time back.

I use WMA lossless for my audio, on home theater PC's. I kinda sorta maybe know what I'm talking about, though I may not be communicating it clearly enough.

Boiled down: I want the original PCM track encoded and compressed to save space. When it's uncompressed, I want the original bandwidth and amplitude of the PCM track reproduced. Any changes to the PCM track should be under my control, via a volume knob, channel splitter for 5.1 to 7.1, whatever.

That's all I want.

I don't want Dialnorm.

I don't want DRC.

I don't want to fiddle with my playback gear to eliminate whatever modifications that Dolby, or Bose, or whoever thinks makes "the listening experience better than the creators intended".

I get that with cheapo two-dolla WMA; why can't I get it with a well engineered product like Dolby?

Originally Posted by dobyblue

But isn't that exactly what they have done? Don't Sony turn DN off on their discs? Isn't that because Dolby has presented them with a "turn this on if you need it path"?

I'd sure like to know. There is no visible flag or notification that any of this stuff is invoked on playback. It's not on the disc labeling, nor is it a menu selection. Enough people in this discussion have made it clear that they hear a difference - probably due to DRC being invoked, without their knowledge - and I think it's a shame.

In a previous post, I noted that some of the best audio I've ever heard came encoded with Dolby hi-def, namely, concert films. It's not that it can't be done with Dolby; it's that they're gluing other stuff to the data source, without good reason (in my opinion).

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX
Because (and ignoring the fact that far more devices are DD compatible)?

Do you have the breakdown of how many devices are DD compatible versus DTS-MA (DTS-MA is what you are referrring to, correct?) I would just like to know where this figure is coming from.

[davcole]

In truthfulness, i've loaded some Sony discs and i've seen on my player +2 Dialnorm show up on some titles. I know I had that on the TRUEHD of VERTICAL LIMIT. In fact it's louder than the PCM track.

So to followup Blu-Dog's point. Why fiddle with it at all?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Do you have the breakdown of how many devices are DD compatible versus DTS-MA (DTS-MA is what you are referrring to, correct?) I would just like to know where this figure is coming from.

The very fact that nearly all HDTVs will accept DD thru HDMI and not DTS is a big one.

Believe it or not there's more people than you think listening to their BDs thru their TVs.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Do you have the breakdown of how many devices are DD compatible versus DTS-MA (DTS-MA is what you are referrring to, correct?) I would just like to know where this figure is coming from.

Peter makes a good point, it's true that more devices are DD compatable. What kinda gets overlooked is that you probably have a whole group of people that never had DD and living in a PCM world. These people are listening to two channel stereo and wouldn't know what a lossless or lossy discrete multi-channel track sounds like. Since both DD/DTS are required to be decoded by the player. Ideally both formats should work for those who still have analog stereo inputs.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Ah, the old dts is just pure audio argument.

That's not an argument; that's merely contradiction!

Anyway, if you want a fresh argument, I'll just scrape the brown spots off this one.

Originally Posted by CraigW

Never mind the fact that they have things in their codec like different 7.1 channel configurations that none of the current hardware supports.

That's odd. My player decodes, and sends 7.1 down as 7.1 PCM. What are these unsupported codecs, anyway?

Originally Posted by CraigW

I don't have any dts parameters on my equipment if my back surrounds are 60deg or 90deg behind me, yet these parameters have been used on some 7.1 dts tracks that have caused hardware to downmix or throwaway the additional channels for 5.1 output.

Well, that explains it. I always get rear channel support on 7.1 tracks, but they must be the voices in my head, like my wife always says.

Originally Posted by CraigW

Dolby has done far more to advance technology for music reproduction than dts. Dolby has a much stronger track record. Dolby provides working product on time. dts has a history of providing buggy product behind schedule.

GRIND that axe!

Originally Posted by CraigW

Again I don't care which one they use, but DolbyTrueHD was on both HD disc systems very early in the product lifecycle. Although dtsMA was on early blu discs it was nearly a year before anyone could use them and then BANG (and this was not a hardware issue, dts provides the code to the licensee, dts did not test it adequately), then why is my 7.1 MA track only playing back at 5.1, etc.

Good question. Try plugging in the speakers, it worked for me.

Originally Posted by CraigW

DolbyTrueHD has been reliable for me since day 1.

Me too. I always got sound. But never out of the rear speakers, unless they're matrixed - I think there's only one movie out in Dolby 7.1.

[GoodToGo]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

i think people are getting dummer these days,not smarter!

Oh, the delicious irony...

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

How odd you should ask this question. If i'm not mistaken, you and I discussed this in another forum section some time back.

I use WMA lossless for my audio, on home theater PC's. I kinda sorta maybe know what I'm talking about, though I may not be communicating it clearly enough.

Boiled down: I want the original PCM track encoded and compressed to save space. When it's uncompressed, I want the original bandwidth and amplitude of the PCM track reproduced. Any changes to the PCM track should be under my control, via a volume knob, channel splitter for 5.1 to 7.1, whatever.

That's all I want.

I don't want Dialnorm.

I don't want DRC.

I don't want to fiddle with my playback gear to eliminate whatever modifications that Dolby, or Bose, or whoever thinks makes "the listening experience better than the creators intended".

I get that with cheapo two-dolla WMA; why can't I get it with a well engineered product like Dolby?

Again, something you seem to be missing is - DOLBY LEAVES IT IN THE HANDS OF THE STUDIO!!

I'd sure like to know. There is no visible flag or notification that any of this stuff is invoked on playback. It's not on the disc labeling, nor is it a menu selection.

They also have no idea when it's being used in dts-ma titles either, so I'm not sure how this argument has laurels in terms of dts vs Dolby.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

The very fact that nearly all HDTVs will accept DD thru HDMI and not DTS is a big one.

Believe it or not there's more people than you think listening to their BDs thru their TVs.

Is there a reason a person can't simply output PCM to their tv? Or use your analog outs to your tv for audio?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

That's odd. My player decodes, and sends 7.1 down as 7.1 PCM. What are these unsupported codecs, anyway?

There are numerous 6.1 and 7.1 dts sources that do not bitstream properly from the majority of Blu-ray player models on the market. Plenty has been said about that already in this thread.

I think there's only one movie out in Dolby 7.1.

Doesn't Star Trek Motion Picture Trilogy feature Dolby 7.1? That's 6 movies alone. Grind that axe!

[DrasticPlastic]

I love dts, and hope Sony drops trueHD. If for no other reason, than I love the dts trailers at the beginning of blu rays.

[davcole]

What's interesting about this poll is that less than 10% say don't change.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Again, something you seem to be missing is - DOLBY LEAVES IT IN THE HANDS OF THE STUDIO!!

BINGO!

This is a poll about preference, not condemnation. Everything I've pointed out as my preferences, is available in Dolby, with the possible exception of notifying me when DRC is engaged.

I don't have any insider information about whether or not the modes I despise are defaults in Dolby. Some folks who have contributed have indicated that they see Dialnorm invoked during the transfer of the film's track to disc - a much more sophisticated process, I think, than just "encode it and ship it."

It also appears that DTS doesn't use the modes I despise as a default - therefore, my preference is for DTS. Thumb-fingered dolts who don't know better won't encode my stuff with DRC imbedded in the primary mix.

So if a studio asks, "which would you prefer?", I'll give my answer: DTS.

I don't own stock in Dolby. If they'd set up their primary purpose of unfiltered, unmodified, pure compression, I'd buy some; I think they'd be way more popular.

Originally Posted by dobyblue

They also have no idea when it's being used in dts-ma titles either, so I'm not sure how this argument has laurels in terms of dts vs Dolby.

From a pure performance standpoint, it appears that DTS encodes don't have that junk bolted on at all. The problem with your point is, we know Dolby does it; and we can hear the result. If you know of DTS doing it, I'd like to know. It hasn't obviously manifested itself to this point.

[Blu Titan]

I'll have to admit that "Blu-Dog" is tenacious. At this point in the poll: DTS-HD MA has almost a 7-1 advantage over Dolby True HD, and I don't think there are enough votes "out there" to change that ratio significantly.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

That's odd. My player decodes, and sends 7.1 down as 7.1 PCM. What are these unsupported codecs, anyway?

Have you tried the dts-MA 7.1 track on Hell Boy 2 on your S550? Other S550 owners report getting a 5.1 downmix - the same problem that cropped up with six other titles with the initial PS3 dts-MA decoder.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Blu Titan

I'll have to admit that "Blu-Dog" is tenacious. At this point in the poll: DTS-HD MA has almost a 7-1 advantage over Dolby True HD, and I don't think there are enough votes "out there" to change that ratio significantly.

The other side has been just as tenacious (vocal minority considering the ratio)..

Indeed, the results are crystal clear for Sony.