Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

<snip for God's sakes>

Look, I'll say it one more time. If Dolby can deliver lossless, unfiltered, unmodified PCM encodes, without me re-swizzling my gear, I don't have a problem.

Up to this point, that has not been the case.

DTS doesn't have this issue, so I prefer DTS.

DTS does have this issue and two examples have been cited.

[Diesel]

the only reason i would want them to go to DTS-HD MA is because i'm rocking an older sound system that doesn't support lossless, so the 1.5mbps DTS sounds better than the 640kbps DD tracks i can use

if i were to upgrade to a new sound system that supports lossless, then i wouldn't care
but that really isn't a priority for me, DD and DTS sound good enough for me for now(don't kill me )

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Thank you, Blu-Dog, for the detailed comments. I appreciate it.

I had ulterior motives - you gave the distinct impression of possessing valuable information, which I was hoping you'd share. Fortunately, I was correct.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

I’m not sure why it’s OK for music to vary in loudness but it's not not OK for films. At least if I set a movie’s (or concert’s) playback volume it will last the full two hours. Song to song loudness changes across CDs every few minutes is much more annoying to me.

It's a real hassle when you're listening to a home theater PC and play all kinds of music. Here's my problem:

Reference Volume, Always
Delibes: Lakme, Act One: Viens, Mallika...Sous Dome Epais (flower duet)
Nick Drake: River Man
Al Green: How Can You Mend A Broken Heart
Joni Mitchell: Help Me

Reference Volume, Ignore The Neighbors Banging On The Door
Joe Walsh: Rocky Mountain Way
Marvin Gaye: Rockin After Midnight (Instrumental Mix)
Aaron Copland: Fanfare For The Common Man
Donald Fagen: Teahouse On The Tracks
Neil Young: Cinnamon Girl (DTS Version)


Reference Volume, Whoa Sh*t, The Furniture Is Moving Around
Linkin Park: FRGT/10 (Reanimation compilation mix with Chali Tuna)
Outkast: I Like The Way You Move
Pink Floyd: Young Lust
Robert Palmer: Sneakin' Sally Through The Alley

I usually dial back the last group a bit, unless it's a weekend afternoon.

I'm losing patience waiting for this stuff to be remixed for Blu. After seeing the terrific work done on concert films in Dolby - probably due to the fact that the artists won't tolerate screwups with encoding - it wouldn't matter to me what the reference level was for these and other examples. I like powerful sound, but there's no need to get to the level where my teeth itch in their sockets.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Yes, it was unfortunate that Iron Man forced DRC on. That is a rare problem, though, and I suspect it won’t happen again.

As for “arbitrary” alterations, dialnorm is not arbitrary, and it has an identifiable baseline—dialog level—but it is certainly an alternative paradigm to the one you (and THX) prefer: reference playback volume. No question that these are two very different things, and I respect your preference for reference volume playback.

I can only imagine that dialogue level is for broadcast television, not necessarily film. The poster Bislander just posted an excerpt from an interesting article from several years back, discussing this.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

One reason your AVR displays the DN offset value is so you can a) know the amount of gain offset, and b) adjust it if you so choose. A manual DN defeat, if you will. Someone else mentioned that DN has failed to achieve its intended goal of normalizing loudness across programs, and I do not dispute that. That’s why we’re now seeing things like Dolby Volume being introduced. It’s a much better solution that was not available in the early 1990s when DN was devised due to DSP limitations—a 30 MIPs DSP was a big deal back then, now 10x that is routine. (It’s still not an easy pill to swallow in cost-constrained set-top boxes and TVs, though, but some TVs are now doing it, and thanks to Moor's law more will undoubtedly follow if consumers feel it solves a problem.)

My AVR for the main home theater is now located in a cabinet; I can't see the face of it to notice the DN flashup, which is pretty brief. I have an identical receiver in another HT setup, and I notice it only when I go to hi-def broadcast stations - I don't see it on Blu playback, although I confess, I'm usually not looking for it.

What's interesting is that you're mentioning broadcast standards. I think Blu is a very different animal, and should be treated as such. It will be a very long time before anything decodes lossless audio on normal broadcast television, and I suspect the attempt to shoehorn codecs into Blu is designed to make the mix for broadcast wholly compatible with the discs. The term "fool's errand" comes to mind. I'm just not sure if it's broadcast companies and media conglomerates, or Blu end users like myself, are the ones running the errands.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Understood. But I hope we can agree that’s not a codec issue, but the quality of the mix.

I'd like to determine who is at fault for bad sound, without suspecting either my equipment or the codec and having no basis for figuring it out.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Yes, forced DRC on Iron Man can be described as crippling, and while other movies such as Rise of the Lycans do not meet your standards for sound quality even when DN is compensated, I do not think a 6 dB change in your master volume setting will contribute any audible degradation to the source's sound quality—certainly nothing that can be described as crippling. If it does, then the AVR is suspect. An inconvenience it may well be for you to have to adjust the volume, I grant that.

It's certainly not a necessity. Ratcheting up the volume on a 140 watt receiver, acting as a pre-amp for a 450 watt amp for the fronts, requires that the user be wearing diapers when he switches to a different audio source.

It just doesn't pass the common sense test. I switch from Blu to broadcast TV with simple, un-Dolbyized stereo output, and the TV weatherman is blowing me through the back of my chair. I can't see the point.

Originally Posted by srrndhound

And while I no longer work for Dolby and cannot speak to their future plans, this DN issue was on the table just before I left, and the final chapter has not yet been written. The input from folks here is thus very useful and is being heard. I thank you for taking the time to reply.

Just a well mastered, straight up PCM track, encoded without wigs and a false nose, and this would be a far different poll.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Esox50

Ask the wife nicely, I'm sure she'll let you get another F113.

Then I'd have to listen to even more of that Christina Aguilera stuff. There is a line I won't cross, man.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by CraigW

dts has a history of coming up short and if it was not for Blu their exsistence in the consumer market is pretty much nil anymore. dts DVDs are pretty much dead... dts is never going to be used for broadcast and the time for need for lossy codecs for theatrical exhibit is ending since digital cinema is just using lossless PCM. I suspect that dts knows that there only hope left is to corner the Blu-ray audio market.

You see, this is what i mean when i say people are always attacking DTS. what in the hell have they done to you?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

DTS does have this issue and two examples have been cited.

The first was real; the second, I bet it is real, I'll check later today. Bislander seems to know what he's talking about, for the most part.

I didn't know about it - I leave the receiver on Auto Surround, which picks up true 7.1 PCM in pure mode without modifying it.

I never noticed that it was pulling a mix on me.

So I guess we have six movies that got fouled up, at the source. Fortunately, the two I have sound clear as a bell; I'll see if I can get them replaced.

I have no idea what I'm going to do with all these Dolby discs.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by Diesel

the only reason i would want them to go to DTS-HD MA is because i'm rocking an older sound system that doesn't support lossless, so the 1.5mbps DTS sounds better than the 640kbps DD tracks i can use

I may have noted it earlier, but I was using the Master and Commander DVD with lossy DTS 5.1 on it as demo material - even after I had Blu-ray.

Lossy DTS is awesome.

Originally Posted by Diesel

if i were to upgrade to a new sound system that supports lossless, then i wouldn't care
but that really isn't a priority for me, DD and DTS sound good enough for me for now(don't kill me )

Don't ride a razor blade! Either pick a side, or clone yourself and pick both sides.

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I may have noted it earlier, but I was using the Master and Commander DVD with lossy DTS 5.1 on it as demo material - even after I had Blu-ray.

Lossy DTS is awesome.



Don't ride a razor blade! Either pick a side, or clone yourself and pick both sides.

i like that option

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

The first was real; the second, I bet it is real, I'll check later today. Bislander seems to know what he's talking about, for the most part.

I didn't know about it - I leave the receiver on Auto Surround, which picks up true 7.1 PCM in pure mode without modifying it.

I never noticed that it was pulling a mix on me.

So I guess we have six movies that got fouled up, at the source. Fortunately, the two I have sound clear as a bell; I'll see if I can get them replaced.

I have no idea what I'm going to do with all these Dolby discs.

I was talking about DN on the two EU dts discs that were mentioned, In Bruges and one other.

What Dolby discs are you referring to in the last sentence?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by saprano

You see, this is what i mean when i say people are always attacking DTS. what in the hell have they done to you?

This is not attacking dts. I am merely pointing out that dts has a history of delivering product that is not quite ready for primetime. Had Fox dropped dts early in the blu game for TrueHD, I doubt many would have ever cared if dts-HD decoding had become available on the PS3. And let's be honest we have already had several iterations of the dts-HD decoding algorithm on the PS3.

Again dts is trying, but Dolby was ready when DVD was ready to launch... Dolby was ready when the PS3 launched and it was easily added to first gen players because it was based on an already proven codec, MLP.

Like I said I don't care at this point which is used, but I am getting a little tired of the fanaticism surrounding dts and unfair slagging TrueHD is getting here. Bits are bits. Lossless is lossless. At the same bit depth and sampling frequency, the source PCM encoded with TrueHD or dtsMA and then decoded equals the source PCM.

But dts BLOWS Dolby out of the water don't you know.... which is the mentality of some of the most vocal dts proponents. Never mind the fact that they are NOT even comparing the same mixes,soundtracks,etc...

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I was talking about DN on the two EU dts discs that were mentioned, In Bruges and one other.

What Dolby discs are you referring to in the last sentence?

Well, Iron Man, for one, but that horse is so dead that even hooking up jumper cables to his 'nads won't make him flinch.

I've got some misgivings about the following:

Transformers
The Dark Knight (probably the mix)
Shooter
Underworld: Rise of the Lycans
Reign of Fire

I haven't watched these since finding out about the DRC debacle, maybe they're OK. Oh, the things we do for Blu...

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Like I said I don't care at this point which is used, but I am getting a little tired of the fanaticism surrounding dts and unfair slagging TrueHD is getting here. Bits are bits. Lossless is lossless. At the same bit depth and sampling frequency, the source PCM encoded with TrueHD or dtsMA and then decoded equals the source PCM.

Fanaticism?

I had a friend, a very intelligent fellow, who was convinced that the original Volkswagen Beetles were the best cars ever designed. He could cite endless facts to back it up.

He characterized anyone who disagreed with him that they were "Detroit fanatics". He could not be convinced otherwise, either about Volkswagens, or other people's motivations.

He now drags around a huge fifth-wheel trailer with a gigantic Dodge diesel truck. We don't talk about the past.

Anyway, I've got some terrific Dolby stuff, and still voted for DTS. As previously noted, if Dolby would change lanes on all this moss they have growing on their product, it would probably change a lot of opinions.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Fortunately, the two I have sound clear as a bell; I'll see if I can get them replaced.

Are you referring to the 7.1 to 5.1 downmix issue on some dts titles?

If so replacing them will solve nothing. The issue is with the decoder on your system not being implemented properly to support several dts 7.1 configurations. dts in their infinite wisdom added options to their tools based on the angle of the surround speakers in relation to the listener. But none of the current dts decoders have such a parameter to indicate what that angle is so some decoders just play the track as 7.1, but others either throw the additional channels away or mix it down to 5.1.

In the engineering world this is usually referred to giving the user just enough rope to hang themselves.

dts is not infallible.

At least with DRC and DN, I have two solutions that always work. Press button to set DRC to OFF and turn volume up by 4dB. If the dts decoder threw the channels away, I can't do anything to get them back.

I mean really you act like you need a degree in engineering to figure out how to get around these so-called TrueHD 'issues.' Once you are aware of them, its a couple of buttons on the remote. And the only reason I have to turn DRC off is because my Onkyo does not store the user setting for this option. Many other AVRs do remember the setting. My PS3 remembers its DRC setting.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Are you referring to the 7.1 to 5.1 downmix issue on some dts titles?

Yes, indeed. The label says, 7.1. The encoding is 5.1. I am not amused.

Originally Posted by CraigW

If so replacing them will solve nothing. The issue is with the decoder on your system not being implemented properly to support several dts 7.1 configurations. dts in their infinite wisdom added options to their tools based on the angle of the surround speakers in relation to the listener. But none of the current dts decoders have such a parameter to indicate what that angle is so some decoders just play the track as 7.1, but others either throw the additional channels away or mix it down to 5.1.

Cool, I'll wait for the firmware fix. It's obviously not a big deal.

Originally Posted by CraigW

In the engineering world this is usually referred to giving the user just enough rope to hang themselves.

I 've spent a little over 30 years in the engineering world, and we call it a f**kup. That's the technical term, anyway. I don't know what the lay term is.

Originally Posted by CraigW

dts is not infallible.

Who is? Names, please; I need this week's lottery number.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Are you referring to the 7.1 to 5.1 downmix issue on some dts titles?At least with DRC and DN, I have two solutions that always work. Press button to set DRC to OFF and turn volume up by 4dB. If the dts decoder threw the channels away, I can't do anything to get them back.

It's called PLIIx, and your Ultra2 THX system has it. Push a couple more buttons, and everything will work out just fine.

Originally Posted by CraigW

I mean really you act like you need a degree in engineering to figure out how to get around these so-called TrueHD 'issues.'

I can't act worth a hoot. Anyway, I paid good money for my discs, and my equipment; anybody fiddling with either turns me into my nickname.

Originally Posted by CraigW

Once you are aware of them, its a couple of buttons on the remote. And the only reason I have to turn DRC off is because my Onkyo does not store the user setting for this option. Many other AVRs do remember the setting. My PS3 remembers its DRC setting.

Tracking down the "DRC: Zilch Point Squat" button is fun, ain't it? I'm glad you're having a good time.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Yes, indeed. The label says, 7.1. The encoding is 5.1. I am not amused.


Cool, I'll wait for the firmware fix. It's obviously not a big deal.

The question is will it ever be addressed. Enough PS3 users complained that the initial PS3 decoder was lacking that Sony and dts moved to give PS3 a fully capable dts decoder. It was initially tagged as a Limited decoder.

I find it hard to believe that you are willing to rip Dolby apart for having to push a couple of extra buttons to get around some of the metadata settings, but you willing to let dts slide for mixing down or throwing away audio channels. Nothing the end user can do other than like you said 'wait for FW update' which may never come on a player that did not have a huge sales numbers with a vocal user group.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

It's called PLIIx, and your Ultra2 THX system has it. Push a couple more buttons, and everything will work out just fine.



I can't act worth a hoot. Anyway, I paid good money for my discs, and my equipment; anybody fiddling with either turns me into my nickname.



Tracking down the "DRC: Zilch Point Squat" button is fun, ain't it? I'm glad you're having a good time.

It's called a Harmony 880 and I have DRC button on my first page for my 'Watch Blu-ray Activity'. Basically if its a TrueHD track. I send the DRC command once. And viola... no DRC to worry about. For someone claiming to be in the engineering world, you would think a work around or two would not be that daunting

Hope you are having fun also.

[BIslander]

Blu-Dog, it seems clear you enjoy the arguing. But, I am asking you try to be more thoughtful here.

You have taken a position that TrueHD needs to be dumped and you cite problems with DRC and the Iron Man disc as proof of the problems with Dolby. You've been staking out the position that DTS is, in fact, infallible - that you never have to "fiddle" with anything when listening to DTS encoded tracks. But, when presented with the evidence that you have verified on your own system, you now acknowledge there are also problem discs with DTS. Neither company is perfect. So, why the flip remark in your response to Craig W?

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

It's called PLIIx, and your Ultra2 THX system has it. Push a couple more buttons, and everything will work out just fine.

That's matrix processing. Are you saying faux 7.1 is an acceptable replacement for a 7.1 mix?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

It's called PLIIx, and your Ultra2 THX system has it. Push a couple more buttons, and everything will work out just fine.

You are assuming the channels were not just thrown away? How do you know? How do you really know? You can't unless you have the source tracks to compare it to.



BSIslander just beat me to it.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by CraigW

I find it hard to believe that you are willing to rip Dolby apart for having to push a couple of extra buttons to get around some of the metadata settings, but you willing to let dts slide for mixing down or throwing away audio channels. Nothing the end user can do other than like you said 'wait for FW update' which may never come on a player that did not have a huge sales numbers with a vocal user group.

Wow. "...rip Dolby apart..."

I think you missed a few posts back there.

Anyway, nobody "slides". It's a problem; it needs to get fixed; and it's not endemic.