Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[RiseDarthVader]

You basically answered your own question. The volume has been reduced. There is no difference in the mix. And what you're getting is a placebo effect other then volume difference. You honestly think even though both codecs produce the same wavelength they magically sound different once they come out of a speaker? BTW I am not "defending" Dolby I am just stopping the spread of FUD. And please go read Sir Terrance's posts. Saying you know more then a sound engineer or hear a difference in a non-acoustically perfect room is just nonsense.

[ADstv]

Never knew of the Ironman TrueHD issue till I read it here and it was my first test disc used when I brought my Onkyo 606. It sounded great and not sure if its just Region A titles that have the Flag set to On by default (Mine is Region B and brought on release date). When I watch it next time I will turn it off Manually by selecting Audio on my Remote and turning DRC from Auto to Off. Really its the same inconvience as selecting the TrueHD track on Warner titles.

I'm fine with Sony still using TrueHD but my main issue with the codec is the metadata stream with all this technology designed for those that hate loud volumes. I know a few of those people that hate loud noises and I say go home and listen to it on your TV speakers if u dont like loud volumes, mine is a home theater not a lounge room TV. Still I prefer DTS-MA, the tracks are amazing and everytime I listened to a title I always had a smile on my face.

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by ADstv

Never knew of the Ironman TrueHD issue till I read it here and it was my first test disc used when I brought my Onkyo 606. It sounded great and not sure if its just Region A titles that have the Flag set to On by default (Mine is Region B and brought on release date). When I watch it next time I will turn it off Manually by selecting Audio on my Remote and turning DRC from Auto to Off. Really its the same inconvience as selecting the TrueHD track on Warner titles.

I'm fine with Sony still using TrueHD but my main issue with the codec is the metadata stream with all this technology designed for those that hate loud volumes. I know a few of those people that hate loud noises and I say go home and listen to it on your TV speakers if u dont like loud volumes, mine is a home theater not a lounge room TV. Still I prefer DTS-MA, the tracks are amazing and everytime I listened to a title I always had a smile on my face.

You should have never said this and now everyone will invade you saying lossless is lossless ,No difference between DTSHD master audio and Dolby TrueHD at all for several reasons already mentioned here in this thread.But the problem is there are many who still prefer DTSHD master audio over DolbytrueHD and still not clear by someone why we should use DTSHD master audio let's only stick with DolbyTrueHD

[ADstv]

I know lossless is lossless and simply TrueHD and DTS-MA are the same as PCM but packed to save space (similar to as a zip or rar). I had no idea that Ironman had the issue. The good thing with DTS-MA is you can listen without thinking "is the DRC off".

The TrueHD track of Cloverfield and The Dark Knight is amazing and brings the same smile to my face so does Tropic Thunder. It's the DRC I hate and my receiver resets it to AUTO when I switch it to standby.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by CraigW

In my experience, the first time the TrueHD track is acquired on the main feature, DRC is set to AUTO. I just hit the DRC button on the remote to turn it OFF and it stays for the duration of the feature. I have never seen it cycle back to AUTO after pausing, rewinding, etc. It is a nuisance, but it is AVR issue and I blame Onkyo for this, not Dolby.

Never said that!

I stated with my Onkyo, I can change AUTO to OFF and it will continue in off mode till the end of the feature. I can load another BD/HD DVD and it will be in OFF mode.

However if I turn my receiver off. The turn it back on at another time, it will go back to the default of AUTO and if I want to disable it. I have to put in another TRUEHD disc and then again change from AUTO to OFF.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by davcole

Never said that!

I stated with my Onkyo, I can change AUTO to OFF and it will continue in off mode till the end of the feature. I can load another BD/HD DVD and it will be in OFF mode.

However if I turn my receiver off. The turn it back on at another time, it will go back to the default of AUTO and if I want to disable it. I have to put in another TRUEHD disc and then again change from AUTO to OFF.

Whoa!!! I was not attacking you. Your initial post could be interpreted that the AUTO setting on the Onkyo was not defeatable. Again, it's an Onkyo bug in that the DRC setting is not stored at power cycle.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by trans22

To all the so called informed people who say lossless is lossless and that truehd and dts sound the same is say rubbish, the reason? i have a copy of the australian version of THE INCREDIBLE HULK which has a TRUEHD track and although it is by no means a bad track compared to the DTS track on the UK disc it is fairly mute, there is around a 6db difference in volume and the TRUEHD track has nowhere near the power or dynamic range of the DTS track, before all you dolby defenders start coming out with excuses i did not have DRC activated and they are both 5.1 mixes and considering it's a very recent movie i'm pretty sure they came from the same master, so why is the DTS mix so much better?

Since it is a different release, we have no way of knowing if it is from the same master. This is nothing new. The Saving Private Ryan DVDs had different mixes for the Dolby and dts discs. The initial Jurassic Park dts DVD had poor bass response and it was done in house by Universal. Wouldn't you know when they finally corrected it they used the master dts had on hand from LD dts track due to a request from dts. My point is that you can't just assume the same master was used.

I think what we need to know is if dts themselves are doing some of these encodes or are the studios doing it. dts was known to cook the mixes a little by jacking the surround volume and EQ'ing the bass up a few dB in the LD and DVD days.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by ADstv

I know lossless is lossless and simply TrueHD and DTS-MA are the same as PCM but packed to save space (similar to as a zip or rar). I had no idea that Ironman had the issue. The good thing with DTS-MA is you can listen without thinking "is the DRC off".

The TrueHD track of Cloverfield and The Dark Knight is amazing and brings the same smile to my face so does Tropic Thunder. It's the DRC I hate and my receiver resets it to AUTO when I switch it to standby.

And again this is not a Dolby issue, it is an Onkyo implementation issue which at this point I doubt will ever be resolved.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by davcole

Peter makes a good point, it's true that more devices are DD compatable. What kinda gets overlooked is that you probably have a whole group of people that never had DD and living in a PCM world. These people are listening to two channel stereo and wouldn't know what a lossless or lossy discrete multi-channel track sounds like. Since both DD/DTS are required to be decoded by the player. Ideally both formats should work for those who still have analog stereo inputs.

i agree and i know that after all these years a lot of folks don't have ht.
like in the audio days most people had a cheap stereo systems while very few had hi end stereo.

were a small % that has a ht.its not because they can't afford a low to mid system,its because there just not interested.like you say they listen to bd from there tv.we get turn on by this stuff.maybe when surround sound in the box systems get cheaper that offer dd true hd and dtsma that might change.
but for now dolby will be the king.dts will always be 2nd fiddle,they always have been.its one of those things.dolby came first and nomatter what comes after[ because of the dolby name ]dolby will be trusted first even if its not quite as good as product ''b''

[ganthc]

A question for those that are pro-DTS-HDMA. Is the sound difference you hear enough for you to repurchase movies you have in TrueHD so that you can hear them in DTS-HDMA? So for example, would you buy Quantum of Solace or Hancock if it was offered again but in DTS-HDMA?

[Tok]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

i agree and i know that after all these years a lot of folks don't have ht.
like in the audio days most people had a cheap stereo systems while very few had hi end stereo.

were a small % that has a ht.its not because they can't afford a low to mid system,its because there just not interested.like you say they listen to bd from there tv.we get turn on by this stuff.maybe when surround sound in the box systems get cheaper that offer dd true hd and dtsma that might change.
but for now dolby will be the king.dts will always be 2nd fiddle,they always have been.its one of those things.dolby came first and nomatter what comes after[ because of the dolby name ]dolby will be trusted first even if its not quite as good as product ''b''

Not quite as good.... LOL.... then why is dts always trying to play catch up by adding other options to their tool and piss poorly I might add (flags that decoders don't handle... Really?). TrueHD was working reliably out of the gate without snap, crackle, BANGS...

Again I don't care which one is used but FUD here is un-freaking-believable.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Whoa!!! I was not attacking you. Your initial post could be interpreted that the AUTO setting on the Onkyo was not defeatable. Again, it's an Onkyo bug in that the DRC setting is not stored at power cycle.

Sorry if I came off harsh. Didn't mean to.

I agree, that's an Onkyo bug.

My previous Onkyo, I could set the receiver for LATE NIGHT OFF and it would stay off (w/ DD). With this 705, it just keeps resetting to AUTO each time you turn it off. I had the worst problem with Bourne Ultimatum on HD DVD as this got tiresome. That's probably the sole reason I went and got the BD's so I didn't have to have that hassle with the DTS.

I do think my Onkyo 705 in general was not ready for primetime, given the AUTO feature reset, the DTSMA not having the ES extensions and my DD+ connection problems from my LG BH200 model. It seems that with my particular player, only Onkyos and Pioneers have that DD+ connect problem.

So in sum all the above issues are hardware and not codec related.

[Stephan.klose]

I wonder why anyone cares at all? Dolby Digital or DTS HD Master really doesn't matter.. I know that theoretically DTS HD MA could play 24,5 mbits and True HD could theoretically only play 18 mbits.. But that's really a moot point... Since the most that's used is about 12 mbits or so..

I tried it after following this thread for a few days with Transporter 3.. I got a DTS HD Ma Mix and the Dolby True HD Mix.. (The True HD Mix for anyone who wonders is from the UK Version).. I tried this both at home and at work and I couldn't make out any difference.. No subtleties.. nothing..

[davcole]

Originally Posted by ganthc

A question for those that are pro-DTS-HDMA. Is the sound difference you hear enough for you to repurchase movies you have in TrueHD so that you can hear them in DTS-HDMA? So for example, would you buy Quantum of Solace or Hancock if it was offered again but in DTS-HDMA?

Interesting that you'd say this.

There is no way i'd replace a TRUEHD track just to get a DTSMA track. That doesn't make sense to me as i'll get the same basic sound. I replaced my BOURNE ULTIMATUM HD DVD cause the BD's were in a box set and I wanted all lossless audio and with the DRC issue on the HD DVD, the DTSMA is an easier implementation. Had they released singularily and the DRC flag issue with my receiver not have been an issue, i'd have kept the HD DVD.

It was funny. I was reading in one of the threads here on AIR FORCE ONE and the poster stated they were pissed cause Sony only had a TRUEHD track on the BD, whereas they Superbit DVD had a DTS track so they downgraded the BD cause the track wasn't DTS(MA I assume that's what they were talking about). While i'm not going to debate if people hear differences between codecs. The being pissed cause it was TRUEHD is just silly. It's the same lossless track over both codecs.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Stephan.klose

I wonder why anyone cares at all? Dolby Digital or DTS HD Master really doesn't matter.. I know that theoretically DTS HD MA could play 24,5 mbits and True HD could theoretically only play 18 mbits.. But that's really a moot point... Since the most that's used is about 12 mbits or so..

I tried it after following this thread for a few days with Transporter 3.. I got a DTS HD Ma Mix and the Dolby True HD Mix.. (The True HD Mix for anyone who wonders is from the UK Version).. I tried this both at home and at work and I couldn't make out any difference.. No subtleties.. nothing..

A 7.1 24-bit@96kHz track would not require more than 18Mbps during a 0% efficiency passage.

Really the max numbers are meaningless and it more of dts trying to impress people with the 'we can go to eleven' argument. The whole point of lossless codec is using as few as bits as possible when encoding that when decoded the master track has been recovered. A more meaningful number would be typical codec efficiency. I believe Dolby is somewhere between 3:1 or 4:1. It is more meaningful since the higher the typical efficiency it means that those bits not needed for audio can be used for other data like video, PiP, etc.

I think what dts is doing is just adding a max-rate dts-HR track to the bits required for a dts-MA track. Impressive number, but in reality it will never be approached.

Maybe that should be the new dts slogan: We go to eleven.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by davcole

Sorry if I came off harsh. Didn't mean to.

I agree, that's an Onkyo bug.

My previous Onkyo, I could set the receiver for LATE NIGHT OFF and it would stay off (w/ DD). With this 705, it just keeps resetting to AUTO each time you turn it off. I had the worst problem with Bourne Ultimatum on HD DVD as this got tiresome. That's probably the sole reason I went and got the BD's so I didn't have to have that hassle with the DTS.

I do think my Onkyo 705 in general was not ready for primetime, given the AUTO feature reset, the DTSMA not having the ES extensions and my DD+ connection problems from my LG BH200 model. It seems that with my particular player, only Onkyos and Pioneers have that DD+ connect problem.

So in sum all the above issues are hardware and not codec related.

No harm, no foul.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by davcole

Interesting that you'd say this.

There is no way i'd replace a TRUEHD track just to get a DTSMA track. That doesn't make sense to me as i'll get the same basic sound. I replaced my BOURNE ULTIMATUM HD DVD cause the BD's were in a box set and I wanted all lossless audio and with the DRC issue on the HD DVD, the DTSMA is an easier implementation. Had they released singularily and the DRC flag issue with my receiver not have been an issue, i'd have kept the HD DVD.

It was funny. I was reading in one of the threads here on AIR FORCE ONE and the poster stated they were pissed cause Sony only had a TRUEHD track on the BD, whereas they Superbit DVD had a DTS track so they downgraded the BD cause the track wasn't DTS(MA I assume that's what they were talking about). While i'm not going to debate if people hear differences between codecs. The being pissed cause it was TRUEHD is just silly. It's the same lossless track over both codecs.

Exactly. I know there are intelligent people here and each side has their share lemmings, but when you see people get upset and can't grasp that lossless codecs in the end sound identical to the master, you wonder if these are the kids you knew in high school with the bass boxes that distorted like hell in the back of their crappy cars.

Am I a fan of DN? NO, but I have this thing called a volume knob. Do I like having DRC available? Yes but I wish my Onkyo remembered the setting (set it and forget it). I am not anal about having my system set to REF volume. I really don't care if my AVR says it is -10dB, 0dB or +5dB. I just turn it up to a point where it sounds good to me.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

Since it is a different release, we have no way of knowing if it is from the same master. This is nothing new. The Saving Private Ryan DVDs had different mixes for the Dolby and dts discs. The initial Jurassic Park dts DVD had poor bass response and it was done in house by Universal. Wouldn't you know when they finally corrected it they used the master dts had on hand from LD dts track due to a request from dts. My point is that you can't just assume the same master was used.

I think what we need to know is if dts themselves are doing some of these encodes or are the studios doing it. dts was known to cook the mixes a little by jacking the surround volume and EQ'ing the bass up a few dB in the LD and DVD days.

Actually the original DTS release of Jurassic Park did not have a poor bass response at all. It was done much like the Transformers release. Instead of directing most of the bass to the LFE where it would be boosted 10db, the bass was partially re-directed to the mains. For those using a sub-sat system (all bass directed to the sub) the bass did not get the 10db boost it would have received if it was all directed to the LFE. It sounded weak on those types of systems. Those of us who use full range speakers in the frontal hemisphere, we heard all the bass as it was supposed to be. The LFE was weak, but the bass was all there.

DTS never cooked anything, that is a false rumor and a myth. As far as I know, Dolby recommended the surrounds be reduced by 3db for home video releases. That was not something DTS knew about, and when they did find out, they reduced the volume by the necessary 3db. No cooking here. All mixes that DTS did were approved by the producer or director, so there was no cooking here as well.

I am amazed that myths and rumors on both sides of this debate have such long legs.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CraigW

A 7.1 24-bit@96kHz track would not require more than 18Mbps during a 0% efficiency passage.

Really the max numbers are meaningless and it more of dts trying to impress people with the 'we can go to eleven' argument. The whole point of lossless codec is using as few as bits as possible when encoding that when decoded the master track has been recovered.

I think what dts is doing is just adding a max-rate dts-HR track to the bits required for a dts-MA track. Impressive number, but in reality it will never be approached.

Maybe that should be the new dts slogan: We go to eleven.

I guess what DTS is doing is probably no worse than Dolby mentioning that Dolby TrueHD can do 14 channels or more, when the format that it is referenced to can only handle 8.

Both DTS and Dolby use numbers to impress, not just DTS. A little balance might be in order here.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

Actually the original DTS release of Jurassic Park did not have a poor bass response at all. It was done much like the Transformers release. Instead of directing most of the bass to the LFE where it would be boosted 10db, the bass was partially re-directed to the mains. For those using a sub-sat system (all bass directed to the sub) the bass did not get the 10db boost it would have received if it was all directed to the LFE. It sounded weak on those types of systems. Those of us who use full range speakers in the frontal hemisphere, we heard all the bass as it was supposed to be. The LFE was weak, but the bass was all there.

DTS never cooked anything, that is a false rumor and a myth. As far as I know, Dolby recommended the surrounds be reduced by 3db for home video releases. That was not something DTS knew about, and when they did find out, they reduced the volume by the necessary 3db. No cooking here. All mixes that DTS did were approved by the producer or director, so there was no cooking here as well.

I am amazed that myths and rumors on both sides of this debate have such long legs.

Look as I said earlier I don't care which one is used, but I don't completely buy that dts has never tweaked anything. The SPR DVDs sounded significantly different between dts and Dolby. I don't think you can completely factor out that Steven Spielberg was a large stakeholder in dts at the time. He was upset that dts was not a mandatory codec on DVD.

Thank you for refreshing my memory regarding the original dts JP DVD, but you know there were many upset enthusiasts with that initial disc. And the reissue which satisfied those people (myself included) used the same master that dts had used for the JP dts laserdisc.

The initial JP Dolby DVD did have some bass issues but not to the same degree. What we ended up with were three DVDs that sounded significantly different in the bass department.