The Criterion Collection

[Gacivory]

Originally Posted by Hazel Motes

New 4K digital restoration, supervised and approved by musician Robbie Robertson, with 5.1 surround DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack


Uhh, why is Robbie Robertson supervising the 4K Digital restoration?

Did I miss it when George Foremen supervised the restoration of When We Were Kings?

Hmmm I wonder what musician Robbie Robertson, who’s worked in the music department (composer/music supervisor) for Scorse films would be supervising. I wonder.

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by gbm82

UHD's are far bigger expense for labels... and also they cost more to the consumer so they almost certainly would sell worse.

Absolutely true, for something like The Piano which is getting a UHD combo. Why? Because a good portion of the sales for a film like that would come from people who may haven't seen the film before and would like to check out a new CC title, and from those who are not Criterion aficionados but would want to check out an earlier film by Jane Campion since her Power of the Dog is in release now. These sales would almost certainly be mostly for the BD (since the point is to check out the film first) and not the UHD which would be bought my mainly those who are both absolute fans of the film and/or those who are Criterion's regular customer base.

Adoption is going to be purchased mainly by people who know the film, or people who are absolutely Criterion nuts, and these are the people who would almost certainly purchase a UHD combo if available. Which is precisely my point!

Originally Posted by gbm82

This isn't rocket science and if your logic were sound, practically everything would be getting UHDs instead of BDs now....

No, because not everything has a ready to go 4K master out there, or has a transfer where a 4K UHD would be a meaningful bump in the AV department. I was talking about how some titles I am not too bothered about being BD only even with 4K masters:

Originally Posted by Scholer

The same should have applied for Love Affair and Boat People for the February titles, but I let that one slide since Love Affair isn’t a film with a surviving source good enough to have a really winning HD transfer, let alone UHD. And for Boat People, the restoration is old and it seems from first impressions that the master used was victim to some undue digitisation. So I can understand that Criterion may have held back on these since they probably felt the presentations they had wouldn’t hold up too well in 4K HDR.

The point with love jones and Adoption is that these are very very recent 4K makeovers, both original camera negative sourced, with both most likely having ready to 4K masters just sitting on the shelf. Their UHD iterations would absolutely have a big bump in AV, and since these are under the radar films which would be bought my mainly die-hard fans of the film and/or ardent CC followers, it's a given that the UHD would sell at least as well as the BD only release for the films would sell.

[CRASHLANDING]

Originally Posted by Scholer

The point with love jones and Adoption is that these are very very recent 4K makeovers, both original camera negative sourced, with both most likely having ready to 4K masters just sitting on the shelf. Their UHD iterations would absolutely have a big bump in AV, and since these are under the radar films which would be bought my mainly die-hard fans of the film and/or ardent CC followers, it's a given that the UHD would sell at least as well as the BD only release for the films would sell.

This is a huge (and incorrect) leap in logic. It's pretty well known that 4K remains an extremely small niche in the physical media market. A recent discussion in the KLSC thread put 4K volumes less than 5% of total disc sales. (Edit: see jkoffman's chart below)

Even among die-hard disc collectors like CC fans, many buyers haven't yet upgraded to 4K. Nor would you get most of the libraries, schools, and other institutional buyers that might buy a DVD or BD. As others have explained, obscure arthouse titles (especially non-English ones) are just not likely to sell well enough to justify the added costs and limited market of a 4K release.

It doesn't matter if it's a great film, has a recent 4K master, or how much the AV would benefit from the upgrade. In the end, this is still a business and decisions will be driven by the need to make a profit. Not exclusively, of course, but it's always going to be a consideration.

[regeyer]

Originally Posted by CRASHLANDING

This is a huge (and incorrect) leap in logic. It's pretty well known that 4K remains an extremely small niche in the physical media market. A recent discussion in the KLSC thread put 4K volumes less than 5% of total disc sales.

Even among die-hard disc collectors like CC fans, many buyers haven't yet upgraded to 4K. Nor would you get most of the libraries, schools, and other institutional buyers that might buy a DVD or BD. As others have explained, obscure arthouse titles (especially non-English ones) are just not likely to sell well enough to justify the added costs and limited market of a 4K release.

It doesn't matter if it's a great film, has a recent 4K master, or how much the AV would benefit from the upgrade. In the end, this is still a business and decisions will be driven by the need to make a profit. Not exclusively, of course, but it's always going to be a consideration.

Very well said. I agree 100%.

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by Hazel Motes

New 4K digital restoration, supervised and approved by musician Robbie Robertson, with 5.1 surround DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack


Uhh, why is Robbie Robertson supervising the 4K Digital restoration?

Did I miss it when George Foremen supervised the restoration of When We Were Kings?

Is there some reason Robertson should not have supervised and approved the restoration of a film of a concert he produced, starred, sang and played, co-wrote the songs, composed some of the film score, and is credited as Producer of the film? The reason Scorsese directed the film is because Robertson asked him to, just 6 weeks before the concert.

During the editing process, Scorsese and Robertson became friends, and frequently collaborated on further projects, with Robertson acting as music producer and consultant on Raging Bull, The King of Comedy, The Color of Money, Casino, Gangs of New York, The Departed and Shutter Island.

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by Scholer

Given their pedigree it’s hard to stomach them just avoiding important 4K UHD releases on the basis of “it probably won’t sell much”. Sure, it probably wouldn’t sell much, but it wouldn’t sell any worse than just the BD would sell.

Originally Posted by Scholer

it's a given that the UHD would sell at least as well as the BD only release for the films would sell.

Reality check.

[koberulz]

And a UHD is 4-6 times more expensive to produce, to boot.

[ShellOilJunior]

Has anyone received the $10 code from the Kane replacement yet?

I'm hoping the code is sent out before 12/20 so I can stack it with another code.

[Scholer]

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Reality check.

And these are Criterion UHD sales for which title?

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Has anyone received the $10 code from Kane replacement yet?

I'm hoping the code is sent out before 12/20 so I can stack it with another code.

Nope, and I returned my disc by mail the day after the announcement. But they were clear about the discount code being sent with the disc:

When we ship your replacement disc, we’ll include a $10 gift certificate to Criterion.com inside the mailer.

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by Scholer

And these are Criterion UHD sales for which title?

These are by # of units sold on the format. Criterion are not likely to share their sales figures. For more info, the article is linked to the image.

[ShellOilJunior]

the-numbers.com offers some home video sales but they run about 4 months behind in reporting (August is their most recent). The site pulls some data from Digital Entertainment Group (DEG) who I believe gets data from NPD Video Scan (Paid service).

Here's an idea of how much something like Citizen Kane UHD sold week 1. In 2011, Kane sold nearly 12,000 copies on blu-ray (Standard and UCE editions released 9/13/11, data reported on 9/18/11). Criterion's UHD sales are maybe half of that figure. Although, Kane will likely be a steady seller on UHD for Criterion.

https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Ci...ab=video-sales

[jkoffman]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Here's an idea of how much something like Citizen Kane UHD sold week 1. In 2011, Kane sold nearly 12,000 copies on blu-ray (Standard and UCE editions released 9/13/11, data reported on 9/18/11). Criterion's UHD sales are maybe half of that figure. Although, Kane will likely be a steady seller on UHD for Criterion.

https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Ci...ab=video-sales

It's also hard to have an apples-to-apples BD vs UHD sales comparison when the UHD includes the BD as well. For example, I haven't upgraded my system to 4K yet, and I will once my player or TV finally fails. But in some cases I'm buying 4K when it includes an upgraded BD as well, so that I'm future-proofing my purchase. During the half-off sales, the difference between CK on BD vs UHD was only $5, so I went for it.

[jshaide]

Originally Posted by ShellOilJunior

Has anyone received the $10 code from the Kane replacement yet?

I'm hoping the code is sent out before 12/20 so I can stack it with another code.

Oh god, I still need to send the picture of my broken disc (with a picture of today's newspaper while I hold a gun to it) so I can get a replacement.

[Scottie]

The Girl (1968, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2042

Binding Sentiments (1969, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2043

Don't Cry, Pretty Girls! (1970, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2044

The Two of Them (1977, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2045

The Heiress (1980, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2046

Diary for My Mother and Father (1990, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2047

Nine Months (1976, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2048

Diary for My Children (1984, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2049

Diary for My Lovers (1987, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2050

Original Cast Album: "Company" (1970, D. A. Pennebaker)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2051

[jshaide]

Originally Posted by Scottie

The Girl (1968, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2042

Binding Sentiments (1969, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2043

Don't Cry, Pretty Girls! (1970, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2044

The Two of Them (1977, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2045

The Heiress (1980, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2046

Diary for My Mother and Father (1990, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2047

Nine Months (1976, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2048

Diary for My Children (1984, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2049

Diary for My Lovers (1987, Márta Mészáros)
https://www.janusfilms.com/films/2050

Man, I really wish they would just drop stuff like this into sets.

[Scottie]

Originally Posted by jshaide

Man, I really wish they would just drop stuff like this into sets.

I agree. For certain directors/countries, it would make the most sense.

[mmarczi]

Originally Posted by Scholer

I never said that “sales should be their least concern”, the point I was trying to make was: Where a 4K UHD release is clearly the way to go to present a film in the “highest technical quality” possible, sales should be their least concern.

This is in essence saying the same thing. Any reasonable person should understand that a for-profit label is not going to put everything it possibly can on a UHD, and trying to hold Criterion to the letter to a generalized mission statement is transparently silly. Are you going to e-mail Mulvaney and point out that their slogan mentions "highest technical quality"? I bet nobody has ever done that before. It's the sloganeering of a for-profit prestige boutique film label and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Scholer

Point is that Criterion is clearly not doing the obvious thing of slapping a ready to go 4K master on a 4K UHD release for films where the “only” excuse to not do so seems to be “sales”. Given their pedigree it’s hard to stomach them just avoiding important 4K UHD releases on the basis of “it probably won’t sell much”. Sure, it probably wouldn’t sell much, but it wouldn’t sell any worse than just the BD would sell.

In what way is this "the obvious thing" when producing a 4K disc is substantially more expensive? "Not making enough profit" is a pretty good 'excuse' for a for-profit company not to do something. They started putting out UHDs because they determined that it would be profitable, not because it best reflects their mission statement. Please be realistic. You just said yourself "it probably wouldn't sell much". And then when that happens, that affects their ability to put out another likely low-selling title, both financially and motivationally.

And it ABSOLUTELY would sell worse than the Blu-Ray. I think 4K-equipped videophiles have a very warped perspective regarding just how widespread they are. Far more people watch DVDs than UHDs. Watch some of the Criterion Closet episodes. You have people in there grabbing DVDs when the Blu-Ray of the same film is right next to it. And these are filmmakers. Your perception is skewed and unrealistic.

A UHD of a Hungarian arthouse drama is a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche within a niche. It's a Russian nesting doll of sales, with the smallest doll in the center representing what the sales would look like.

[Vigojean]

You guys talk way too much about 4K. I'm ok with Barry Lyndon on Blu-ray. It got a 4K transfer. That's good enough. There's movies out there that don't even have a decent Blu-ray release, let alone 4K. You're seriously not grateful that we have Detour and Bigger Than Life and the Jean Vigo collection on Blu-ray? You need them all on 4K to be happy?

[jshaide]

Originally Posted by Scottie

I agree. For certain directors/countries, it would make the most sense.

These are never all going to come out.