Sony's Track Record - Blu-ray Forum

CobaltBlue · 09-22-2006, 11:06 AM

As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation...

*Betamax- *cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again?
*MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting.
*Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology"
*HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though.
*SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards"
*ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players?
*Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format.
*SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's.
Lastly,
*MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love.

Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?). Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format. One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD). So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases, and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3...
Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable...
According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well.

CobaltBlue

*Most info taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony#Proprietary_formats

Blue · 09-22-2006, 01:52 PM

CobaltBlue, I agree on Sony's developments. Excellent research and even better acknowledging it.
However don’t overlook Sony’s successes, Umatic*, 3.5” floppy disk* just to mention a few. Trust me I’m not a Sony fanboy, the only Sony item I have is a PC DVD Burner, but credit has to be given where credit is due.

I think this was one of many reasons that Sony joined Philips to bring us the CD. They have again joined forces with Philips and to really make sure have got Panansonic, Pioneer, JVC and nearly every other CE company in Japan. They didn't forget about that other powerhouse of CE being South Korea with Samsung, LG and others. So in this case I think Toshiba is the odd man out (OK and their almost silent partner NEC).
I agree there can only be one format at the end of the day, but I can't see HD-DVD and Blu Ray being dumped in favour of another, even though I can feel the blood pressure of the holographic group rising.

As for the extra processing power Most of the enhancements are traceability and dynamic updates along with a few other tricks as the heart of the copy protection is AACS (Same as in HD-DVD) http://www.physorg.com/news5725.html although not doubting the Tom's article it may have been a copy from an article published by another source and their are plenty of them around, just have a look at some of the other threads here.

I agree HD-DVD has the edge on releases, but Fox, Disney and MGM are about to enter guns blazing all of which are at this point in time exclusive to Blu Ray. Remember HD-DVD has been out longer than Blu Ray - infact I suspect Blu Ray hasn't really been launched, Samsung is there as a what you can do we can do. Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are about add what you can do we can do better (especially the Panasonic 4x recorder) but as they say time will tell.

* Sony

CobaltBlue · 09-23-2006, 01:12 AM

"CobaltBlue, I agree on Sony's developments. Excellent research and even better acknowledging it. However don’t overlook Sony’s successes, Umatic*, 3.5” floppy disk*but credit has to be given where credit is due."

You're absolutely right. 3.5 floppy and cd may go down as the most long-lived media in pc and music history. Like I said, it was more a balance for the fanboys on here who seem to think Sony is going to pull this thing off effortlessly. I could hop on and join in the echo chamber refrain of HD sucks, PS3 is gonna smoke xbox, Sony isn't a joke in high end electronics circles

ok, that was a little low. But we both know it'll be a Marantz, Denon, or Integra reciever and hi-def player that people who can afford $1000 players will want. And we won't start on why they definitely won't be playing that beautiful audio on Sony speakers or headphones. Try Martin Logans(what I have) or Magnepans with proper amps at your nearest high end audio store and you'll grow out of BestBuy level merchandise in a hurry. However, I greatly appreciate the innovations Sony's helped bring about and their decent electronics for the middle class. And I will give them some well earned credit on good TV's bar none. My 36" Tube Sony HD Wega still has one of the best and brightest screens I've ever seen, even years later.

"I agree HD-DVD has the edge on releases, but Fox, Disney and MGM are about to enter guns blazing all of which are at this point in time exclusive to Blu Ray. "

The studios will go after the money. If blu-ray market share is lackluster due to higher prices, bad timing, or poor marketing (which includes making the public aware of its storage superiority) then we'll see Disney and Co. on HD in short order. How legally binding is their format allegiance I wonder? Not very I'd imagine.
I hope the PS3 launch goes better than I suspect it will and that competition lowers prices for everyone with Blu-ray the winner and universal players so HD-dvd buyers don't get screwed. Or vice versa.

09-23-2006, 01:19 AM

I thought we wouldnt have trolls here.

Blue · 09-23-2006, 03:45 AM

There are a number of posts way off topic (I'm the main offender) so I will move then in the next day or so to a more appropriate thread. Just trying to keep a long thread on track. So please wait to respond to the comments above. The reason for the delay - I have to work out how to do it, and where to put it.

09-22-2006, 11:06 AM	#1
CobaltBlue Banned Member since:Sep 2006	Sony's Track Record As a huge Audio/Videophile, I hate to agree with the naysayers but Sony has a notoriously bad track record on developing their innovative technologies. This is just a quick reminder to put the fanboys in check. I'm not crticizing technical capabilities, merely implementation... Betamax- cough cough* how'd that last big format battle go again? MiniDisc- I kept waiting for this to, rightfully, replace cd as a realistic and durable solution. Yup, still waiting. Memory Stick-"few other manufacturers are also making use of this technology" HiFD- yeah, I never heard of it either. It's competitor Zip did pretty well though. SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound)- "Ultimately, SDDS has been vastly overshadowed by the preferred DTS (Digital Theatre System) and Dolby Digital standards" ATRAC- do people own ATRAC or MP3 players? Elcaset- another dead proprietary audio format. SACD- Relevant as a recent Hi-def format war and my favorite example as an audiophile. Sony develops a superior audio technology (yes, even in comparison to vinyl) and then releases a handful (I'm being generous) of albums per year and advertises... wait, that's right I never saw any. Thank god for third party releases. DVD-Audio seems to have kind-of? won this format war. The end result being a public largely ignorant that either exists at all. Thanks to bad implentation and the rise of crappy but compressed MP3's, the music we listen to is at the same or worse quality(media-wise) it was in the 80's. Lastly, MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD)- never had one of these did you? That's because Philips and Sony abandoned their MMCD format and agreed upon Toshiba's SD format. This became the DVD we know and love. Sony has never been what I would call consumer friendly (2005 rootkit debacle anyone?). Though my love of games and movies has me eager to have HD and Blu-ray, my response (and others) might be to hold off until these idiots consider their customers, go back to the drawing board and come back with a unified format. One way or another we'll get one and not everyone is clamoring for a PS3... so that doesn't guarantee success other than in use as another proprietary Sony format for their products(a'la UMD). So far it looks like HD has the edge of releases, and if the price is reasonable for the Xbox360 add-on drive, there's a difficult decision coming for budget concious movie watching gamers. If the choices are HD drive and Halo3(that's right, I dropped the H-bomb) vs. a new PS3... Also, I'd like to pose a question to those more knowledgable... According to tomshardware.com and other tech savy sources, decoding encryption on new Hi-def media is going to give even recent dual core processors in pc's a hard time. Upon Sony's insistence, Blu-ray has stronger encryption from what I've read. Will HD-dvd's cause less of a performance hit on a pc than Blu-ray? If so, I think that is a pretty important consideration as well. CobaltBlue *Most info taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony#Proprietary_formats

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09-22-2006, 01:52 PM	#2
Blue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Melbourne Australia Blu-ray collection:206	CobaltBlue, I agree on Sony's developments. Excellent research and even better acknowledging it. However don’t overlook Sony’s successes, Umatic, 3.5” floppy disk just to mention a few. Trust me I’m not a Sony fanboy, the only Sony item I have is a PC DVD Burner, but credit has to be given where credit is due. I think this was one of many reasons that Sony joined Philips to bring us the CD. They have again joined forces with Philips and to really make sure have got Panansonic, Pioneer, JVC and nearly every other CE company in Japan. They didn't forget about that other powerhouse of CE being South Korea with Samsung, LG and others. So in this case I think Toshiba is the odd man out (OK and their almost silent partner NEC). I agree there can only be one format at the end of the day, but I can't see HD-DVD and Blu Ray being dumped in favour of another, even though I can feel the blood pressure of the holographic group rising. As for the extra processing power Most of the enhancements are traceability and dynamic updates along with a few other tricks as the heart of the copy protection is AACS (Same as in HD-DVD) http://www.physorg.com/news5725.html although not doubting the Tom's article it may have been a copy from an article published by another source and their are plenty of them around, just have a look at some of the other threads here. I agree HD-DVD has the edge on releases, but Fox, Disney and MGM are about to enter guns blazing all of which are at this point in time exclusive to Blu Ray. Remember HD-DVD has been out longer than Blu Ray - infact I suspect Blu Ray hasn't really been launched, Samsung is there as a what you can do we can do. Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are about add what you can do we can do better (especially the Panasonic 4x recorder) but as they say time will tell. * Sony

09-23-2006, 01:12 AM	#3
CobaltBlue Banned Member since:Sep 2006	"CobaltBlue, I agree on Sony's developments. Excellent research and even better acknowledging it. However don’t overlook Sony’s successes, Umatic, 3.5” floppy diskbut credit has to be given where credit is due." You're absolutely right. 3.5 floppy and cd may go down as the most long-lived media in pc and music history. Like I said, it was more a balance for the fanboys on here who seem to think Sony is going to pull this thing off effortlessly. I could hop on and join in the echo chamber refrain of HD sucks, PS3 is gonna smoke xbox, Sony isn't a joke in high end electronics circles ok, that was a little low. But we both know it'll be a Marantz, Denon, or Integra reciever and hi-def player that people who can afford $1000 players will want. And we won't start on why they definitely won't be playing that beautiful audio on Sony speakers or headphones. Try Martin Logans(what I have) or Magnepans with proper amps at your nearest high end audio store and you'll grow out of BestBuy level merchandise in a hurry. However, I greatly appreciate the innovations Sony's helped bring about and their decent electronics for the middle class. And I will give them some well earned credit on good TV's bar none. My 36" Tube Sony HD Wega still has one of the best and brightest screens I've ever seen, even years later. "I agree HD-DVD has the edge on releases, but Fox, Disney and MGM are about to enter guns blazing all of which are at this point in time exclusive to Blu Ray. " The studios will go after the money. If blu-ray market share is lackluster due to higher prices, bad timing, or poor marketing (which includes making the public aware of its storage superiority) then we'll see Disney and Co. on HD in short order. How legally binding is their format allegiance I wonder? Not very I'd imagine. I hope the PS3 launch goes better than I suspect it will and that competition lowers prices for everyone with Blu-ray the winner and universal players so HD-dvd buyers don't get screwed. Or vice versa.

09-23-2006, 01:19 AM	#4
kevinca1 Guest	I thought we wouldnt have trolls here.

09-23-2006, 03:45 AM	#5
Blue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2005 Location:Melbourne Australia Blu-ray collection:206	There are a number of posts way off topic (I'm the main offender) so I will move then in the next day or so to a more appropriate thread. Just trying to keep a long thread on track. So please wait to respond to the comments above. The reason for the delay - I have to work out how to do it, and where to put it.

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