Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by davcole

The real question is, what is the reason for their business decision. It sure will be interesting to find out.

I'm betting on the lack of a need for error trapping.

Iron Man got blown because someone did or didn't flip a switch, and DRC was defaulted. Same with the -4db attenuation - looks like a default setting, that engineers use because "you're supposed to, it's the standard".

This is causing the general public to say, "DTS sounds better", and the Dolby adherents scream, "Change your player! Switch your volume levels back and forth! What, are you an idiot?"

Such screaming is not good for business. I've heard folks who didn't want to fiddle with player settings or volume settings or receiver settings described as childish, silly, fanboys, unintelligent, etc etc etc.

So the studios would each have to set up their own standards (not difficult, but easily missed) for every post-production house to handle the Dolby encodes in a non-standard way.

Why bother. Drop Dolby on Blu. Problem solved.

Encodes for broadcast are the broadcaster's problem, no worries there. It's only DD 5.1 anyway, aficiandos aren't worried about what's on HBO, soundwise.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

You have understand me wrongly and everybody accounting on what i have said "Something Hidden"What i mean here in reality is the technical achievements of DTSHD master audio over Dolby TrueHD maybe i'm wrong.

Yes, that's certainly possible.

Maybe its easily to encode DTSHD master audio 24 bit in 7.1 rather than using Dolby TrueHD 24 bit in 7....

What gives you that idea? Do you have some personal experience here? Or, can you cite comparisons from professionals about this?

...you already know the long duration of these movies by time Dolby TrueHD proves it is a little hungry space over DTSHD master audio so choosing DTSHD master audio is better for encoding and saving some space for extras.

This has been guessed at a few times in this thread, but no one has ever been able to provide any actual information about relative sizes and whether they are a factor in encoding decisions. Do you have any such information?

Sony by using multiple lossless sound Dolby TrueHD ,they are obligated to diminish it to 16 bit rather 24 bit.

Where did you get this information? Please dothe math or provide a source linking multiple lossless tracks with the decision to use 16 bits. btw, I've never seen dts-MA foreign language tracks on a disc, even when the English track is dts-MA. (One poster mentioned a Swedish title. But that's it.) Why do you suppose studios use Dolby foreign languages in conjunction with the dts-MA main track?

Dolby TrueHD face some problems among unexperienced users who doesn't know about DRC or Dial norm or night shift mode or whatever called and applying these settings can diminish the experience of lossless sound at the end Or the master sound as director intended it to be.

DRC is only a problem when set to Auto (just Onkyo receivers as far as I know) and the disc itself engages DRC when the decoder is set to Auto. One disc - Iron Man. Any others? That question has been asked and not answered several times in this thread.

Dialnorm has no effect. You simply set the volume to a comfortable listening level at the start of the movie, as nearly everyone does with every movie they watch - BD, DVD, VHS - and with every type of encode used. The only effect of DN is the loss of the bottom 4db from a 0-105db range. The people in this thread who attack DN have yet to establish that there's any audible sonic impact to that. As with the other issues here - that's been asked and not answered in this thread.

Now, when it comes to altering the sound that the director intended, many DTS-HD player decoders actually do that by forcing channel duplication to create a 7.1 output from a 5.1 source. If you have a 7.1 system, you cannot listen to the track the way the director intended. Cannot. Also, there are six dts-MA movies that downmix 7.1 to 5.1 on some players and receivers. Compare that with TrueHD, where one disc (Iron Man) has a problem with some receivers. But, at least, the listener can fix the Iron Man problem himself. He can't with the problem dts-MA discs.

BIslander you already know my reply a couple post back i dont know where in this thread now how DolbyTrueHD can interfere with me ,everytime i should calibrate my surround receiver and lower up my volume knob in order to enjoy the complete experience of DolbyTrueHD whereas DTSHD master audio is one step calibration and you are safe.

Scorxpion, this is pure bunk. You pop in a movie and adjust the volume to whatever suits your pleasure at the moment. No calibration. No special setups. There's no difference in what you need to do with TrueHD and dts-MA. The volume reading on your receiver display will be different. But, it's going to be different for most movies anyway, regardless of the codec being used. It all depends on the sound design and a lot of variables such as who's watching the movie, the time of day, personal mood, etc. Where are you getting all that stuff about special TrueHD configurations?

Maybe for this reason many users found DTSHD master audio as a powerful codec over its counterpart but doesnt mean they are fanboyism or living in fantasy world.

You have lots of maybes in your post and statements that appear to be made up. Not a single fact or any scientific methodology. That's why you come across as a fanboy.

You already know i have appraised Paramount Blu-ray discs for using DolbyTrueHD 24 bit.Yes i move my cap to them.Havent and never said DTSHD master audio can alter the original surround track.

What's that "something hidden" thing with DTS-HD you mentioned? If DTS doesn't change the track, are you saying TrueHD does because it lacks that hidden something? If so, what happens with TrueHD? Please try to answer with facts here.

But it is usefull and straight forward to enjoy a complete experience without fear or making sure just all my settings are ok.

From what's been posted in this thread, TrueHD is only a problem with one disc and only if you have an Onkyo receiver. What's to fear?

I have my own rights to choose DTSHD master audio over DolbyTrueHD.

Absolutely. But, when you make unsupported claims about the differences in this thread, I will exercise my right to point that out.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

One of the studio wizards posted here that all they do with 7.1 tracks is duplicate them with PLIIx like we do here at home. The theater mix is usually 5.1.

As far as I know, that's way over-stated. I'm sure it happens, but it's not "all they do". Remixing starts with the original 5.1 stems because there's no 7.1 sourcing. But, the remixers can and do create discrete rear channel effects that go beyond PLIIx matrixing.

For those interested in how 7.1 remixes are done, check out the Mi Casa website. Mi Casa does many of the 7.1 remixes.

http://www.micasamm.com/newsite/

Scroll down through the Mi Casa News box and click the link to the Wide Screen Review article "The Mi Casa Magicians - An Interview with the Team Behind 7.1".

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I'm betting on the lack of a need for error trapping.

Iron Man got blown because someone did or didn't flip a switch, and DRC was defaulted. Same with the -4db attenuation - looks like a default setting, that engineers use because "you're supposed to, it's the standard".

This is causing the general public to say, "DTS sounds better", and the Dolby adherents scream, "Change your player! Switch your volume levels back and forth! What, are you an idiot?"

Such screaming is not good for business. I've heard folks who didn't want to fiddle with player settings or volume settings or receiver settings described as childish, silly, fanboys, unintelligent, etc etc etc.

So the studios would each have to set up their own standards (not difficult, but easily missed) for every post-production house to handle the Dolby encodes in a non-standard way.

Why bother. Drop Dolby on Blu. Problem solved.

Encodes for broadcast are the broadcaster's problem, no worries there. It's only DD 5.1 anyway, aficiandos aren't worried about what's on HBO, soundwise.

I voted it wouldn't matter to me ... even though I agree with what your saying in your posts. Especially the error trapping point...coming from the software world if you give someone a way to mess it up .. eventually they will. It was unfortunate for Dolby it happened with such a big title .. but that's the point really.

Just curious .. and it was probably answered along the way.. is Night mode the type of operation that a receiver can implement for any source .. or is it something that must be done at encoding time.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

DRC is only a problem when set to Auto (just Onkyo receivers as far as I know) and the disc itself engages DRC when the decoder is set to Auto. One disc - Iron Man. Any others? That question has been asked and not answered several times in this thread.

Actually, it hasn't. One disc, Iron Man, is a known problem, because it's egregious. It may be present, to varying degrees, on other discs. And it, along with Dialnorm, may explain why people prefer the sound of DTS encodes, by a very wide margin.

There is NO data on this that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by BIslander

Dialnorm has no effect.

Oh, for crying out loud, that horse is dead. Dialnorm lowers volume. That, by definition, is an effect.

Originally Posted by BIslander

You simply set the volume to a comfortable listening level at the start of the movie, as nearly everyone does with every movie they watch - BD, DVD, VHS - and with every type of encode used.

You never answered the question when I raised it: at what point can you put down your remote control and say, that's the volume I like? Opening credits, an explosion, whispered instructions from one assassin to another? The concept makes no sense.

I guess some people like watching a movie holding a remote, fiddling with volume constantly. It's a ludicrous concept, especially since they paid for an audio engineer to set up the sound as it should be played back.

Originally Posted by BIslander

The only effect of DN is the loss of the bottom 4db from a 0-105db range. The people in this thread who attack DN have yet to establish that there's any audible sonic impact to that. As with the other issues here - that's been asked and not answered in this thread.

My first response to you in this thread was that you're being disingenuous; I'll repeat it.

I own Pioneer Elite units, with 140 watts RMS power. One is augmented by an amplifier, with 450 watts of power to my left and right front speakers. At 0 reference level, there's only 9db left to max volume; that's where I listen to movies, in a large room, with arguably very high quality components.

There is a huge difference in sound between 0, and +4, or from 0 to -4.

Huge.

Now, I don't know what you're running, and you can have a different subjective interpretation of what 4db means when listening to this stuff, but to call it the same makes me wonder what you're actually hearing.

For someone who tries to project the image that you're an impartial observer, these comments don't seem to fit the image at all.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

Just curious .. and it was probably answered along the way.. is Night mode the type of operation that a receiver can implement for any source .. or is it something that must be done at encoding time.

Go back a few pages and there's an extended discussion about that.

In a nutshell, night mode is dynamic range compression. The volume at the high end is lowered and the volume at the low end is boosted. The volume of average dialog is not changed. That allows you to listen at low volume and still hear whispers (because they are raised in volume) without being overpowered by loud effects (because they are lowered in volume).

Night mode can be applied by a playback device independent of the encoding process and many receivers and players offer that feature for all types of encodes. However, those devices have to make an assumption about the level of average dialog because they don't rely on the Dolby metadata. If the assumption is wrong, night mode doesn't work very well. Many receiver and player manuals with independent night mode options include an advisory saying it may not make much difference with some discs.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

There is a huge difference in sound between 0, and +4, or from 0 to -4.

Huge.

Blu-dog, as noted earlier, I'm done exchanging posts with you. However, I will make an exception on this one issue.

My post that you quoted and the lengthy discussion with AnthonyP were not about audible differences in overall volume at reference. 4db overall is certainly substantial. It's about the 4db in the PCM at the very bottom end of a 0-105db scale that is potentially lost with a -4b dialnorm offset. That's a different matter.

EDIT: I'll toss in one other response:

You never answered the question when I raised it: at what point can you put down your remote control and say, that's the volume I like? Opening credits, an explosion, whispered instructions from one assassin to another? The concept makes no sense.

This was answered many times in the thread. Your questions demonstrate a lack of understanding about dialnorm. The DN offset happens once and only once. It lowers the master volume out of the decoder at the start of playback. DN has nothing to do with peaks and valleys along the way. If you need adjust the volume, that's a problem with the mix that will be there regardless of dialnorm. DTS is no more or less susceptible to internal volume variations than TrueHD or PCM.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I don't know how bad FSM sounds, but if a DRC track beats it, every actor must have been gagged with a bath towel during filming.

Wow... so you're still not understanding DRC?

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Go back a few pages and there's an extended discussion about that.

In a nutshell, night mode is dynamic range compression. The volume at the high end is lowered and the volume at the low end is boosted. The volume of average dialog is not changed. That allows you to listen at low volume and still hear whispers (because they are raised in volume) without being overpowered by loud effects (because they are lowered in volume).

Night mode can be applied by a playback device independent of the encoding process and many receivers and players offer that feature for all types of encodes. However, those devices have to make an assumption about the level of average dialog because they don't rely on the Dolby metadata. If the assumption is wrong, night mode doesn't work very well. Many receiver and player manuals with independent night mode options include an advisory saying it may not make much difference with some discs.

Your nutshell is ideal .. thanks.

[Scorxpion]

A special Thanks to Blu-Dog for elaborating and answering BIslander.

Thank you again Sir.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I guess some people like watching a movie holding a remote, fiddling with volume constantly. It's a ludicrous concept, especially since they paid for an audio engineer to set up the sound as it should be played back.

Again, this clearly shows that you don't understand the effects of DialNorm. The volume doesn't constantly fluctuate throughout the film.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Actually, it hasn't. One disc, Iron Man, is a known problem, because it's egregious. It may be present, to varying degrees, on other discs. And it, along with Dialnorm, may explain why people prefer the sound of DTS encodes, by a very wide margin.

There is NO data on this that I'm aware of.

Oh, for crying out loud, that horse is dead. Dialnorm lowers volume. That, by definition, is an effect.



You never answered the question when I raised it: at what point can you put down your remote control and say, that's the volume I like? Opening credits, an explosion, whispered instructions from one assassin to another? The concept makes no sense.

I guess some people like watching a movie holding a remote, fiddling with volume constantly. It's a ludicrous concept, especially since they paid for an audio engineer to set up the sound as it should be played back.



My first response to you in this thread was that you're being disingenuous; I'll repeat it.

I own Pioneer Elite units, with 140 watts RMS power. One is augmented by an amplifier, with 450 watts of power to my left and right front speakers. At 0 reference level, there's only 9db left to max volume; that's where I listen to movies, in a large room, with arguably very high quality components.

There is a huge difference in sound between 0, and +4, or from 0 to -4.

Huge.

Now, I don't know what you're running, and you can have a different subjective interpretation of what 4db means when listening to this stuff, but to call it the same makes me wonder what you're actually hearing.

For someone who tries to project the image that you're an impartial observer, these comments don't seem to fit the image at all.

i have similar equipment, i usually have to adjust dtshdma and pcm tracks to -4 db's while i can play all my true hd tracks at 0

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

You're the one who claims that dialnorm adjustments produce an audible difference. I believe that places a burden on you to support such a claim.

As for testing, a home brewed comparison has zero validity. A scientifically rigorous DBT is in order here. Citations from audio professionals related to the specific issue at hand would also lend some credibility. I read a fair amount about these subjects and I don't recall seeing anything remotely related to the position you are taking. I may have just missed it, of course, which is why I asked you to "show something". That's what I meant - scientific test results or credible professional opinions.

Presumably, you have done your own testing. I'm curious about how you constructed such a test at home. I'm not aware of any way to compare a TrueHD track with and without DN adjustments. If a track is encoded with a DN other than -31, all Dolby decoders will lower PCM by the offset amount. How do you listen to that same track without a dialnorm adjustment? You could compare the same track encoded with TrueHD and dts-MA, but that would not be proper since it introduces other variables. Besides, there are very few discs with both TrueHD and dts-MA tracks. The 30th Anniversary of Close Encounters has both. But, I don't think the TrueHD tracks use DN.

If you have any kind of legitimate support for the notion that non-dialnormed playback produces superior audio quality to volume adjusted dialnorm output, please share it. I am always interested in learning something new.

Yes I made a test at home, but that is why I said YOU need to test it out for YOURSELF. Your post is already dismissing everything because you decided there is no difference even though you did not test anything.

You can't test any movie on your BD player because
1) DN is always applied
2) You don't know the DN number

So this is the test I did: loud for a long time, soft for a short time, loud for a short time. PCM and DTHD with DN. Then I did three streps
1) can I see a difference. Without listening, I compared the two wave forms as raw data. There was a difference, there was the truncation
2) numerical analysis (one of the reasons the first loud is long) with an SPL meter have both playing and switch back and forth until the louds are level matched (I ended up with a 26db difference), then look at the SPL meter to see if there is a difference (and yes there was)
3) listened and paid attention if there is a difference and there was.

You can dismiss it as much as you want. In the end there are too many variables (what is the DN difference -1db is not the same as a 30db; how good is your hearing, what is the noise floor in the room....) to stipulate what would be the general effect. Like I said my issue is not how important of an issue it is but with people stating mater of factly that DN has no effect and all you need to do is turn up the volume to get back the exact same thing.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

Yes I made a test at home, but that is why I said YOU need to test it out for YOURSELF. Your post is already dismissing everything because you decided there is no difference even though you did not test anything.

You can't test any movie on your BD player because
1) DN is always applied
2) You don't know the DN number

So this is the test I did: loud for a long time, soft for a short time, loud for a short time. PCM and DTHD with DN. Then I did three streps
1) can I see a difference. Without listening, I compared the two wave forms as raw data. There was a difference, there was the truncation
2) numerical analysis (one of the reasons the first loud is long) with an SPL meter have both playing and switch back and forth until the louds are level matched (I ended up with a 26db difference), then look at the SPL meter to see if there is a difference (and yes there was)
3) listened and paid attention if there is a difference and there was.

You can dismiss it as much as you want. In the end there are too many variables (what is the DN difference -1db is not the same as a 30db; how good is your hearing, what is the noise floor in the room....) to stipulate what would be the general effect. Like I said my issue is not how important of an issue it is but with people stating mater of factly that DN has no effect and all you need to do is turn up the volume to get back the exact same thing.

Anthony P, I'm no audio professional and I have no idea whether the tests you did are meaningful or pointless. Sorry, but I simply have no way of knowing.

So, please help me out here by explaining what your test establishes and why. It doesn't look like you tested what we are talking about. As I understand it, you've taken the position is that lowering PCM and then raising the master volume produces a different result. To test that hypothesis, don't you need to lower the PCM output? How'd you do that? What PCM and TrueHD sources did you use? Was the source the same for both? This test really needs to be done using only a single TrueHD source, with and without DN. And, then there's the business of self-administered tests, which cannot control for bias by the tester.

By way of comparison, similar types of tests will prove there's a data difference between dts-MA and the DTS core at 1509kbps. But, does that data difference mean dts-MA sounds better than the core? I think the results of controlled listening tests and the opinions of audio professionals pretty well establish there's little or no audible difference associated with the data difference. Isn't that what this discussion is about?

I'm more than happy to grant the obvious - that dialnorm reduces PCM by 4db. I have yet to see anything to indicate that it matters.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Actually, I care. I'd rather not have someone altering tracks to what they think "sounds good." That's like saying to the original sound designer/mixer that their work wasn't good enough in the first place.

mostly agree, though I don’t have an issue when they take older tracks and up mix them for a better experience

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Anthony P, I'm no audio professional and I have no idea whether the tests you did are meaningful or pointless. Sorry, but I simply have no way of knowing.

I'm more than happy to grant the obvious - that dialnorm reduces PCM by 4db. I have yet to see anything to indicate that it matters.

The only teeth-knashing over DialNorm is in these types of threads online.

As far as the professional community goes, it's a non-issue, save for the fact that the studios want that option, and DTS had to add it to their spec because so.

As far as those complaining about DRC being flagged as "On" for those decoders set to "Auto", I find the fact I can't get sound bitstreaming Die Hard 2 because of a flagging issue a lot more troublesome. FOX has yet to reissue the disc properly.

Or the fact that devices with "Essentials" decoders aren't labeled as such, nor will they decode the ES extension, meanwhile TrueHD decoders in the same devices have no trouble with the "EX" flag.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

Just curious .. and it was probably answered along the way.. is Night mode the type of operation that a receiver can implement for any source .. or is it something that must be done at encoding time.

I'm beginning to think it differs by manufacturer. Two Onkyo users here say DRC only works with Dolby source material when invoked on the receiver, but I have two Pioneer Elite units, and three older model Technics units, that can invoke night mode on any source material.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Blu-dog, as noted earlier, I'm done exchanging posts with you. However, I will make an exception on this one issue.

Please, make no exceptions. I'll simply note when you make comments that defy logic, such as the notion that attenuating a signal by 4db is equivalent to "no effect".

You may reply to me, other members of this forum, or the clear blue sky. Do not consider it an opening for an intelligent discussion, and don't "gift" me with these prissy "exceptions".

Thanks in advance.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by BIslander

My post that you quoted and the lengthy discussion with AnthonyP were not about audible differences in overall volume at reference. 4db overall is certainly substantial. It's about the 4db in the PCM at the very bottom end of a 0-105db scale that is potentially lost with a -4b dialnorm offset. That's a different matter.

Bollocks.

Objectively, an increase in 1 decibel is linear, in increments. Subjectively, it's exponential, and very obvious.

It's completely irrelevant where on the scale the attentuation takes place. Listening occurs at much higher decibel settings, where the effect of attenuation is very obvious. I'm sure you know this, which is probably the reason you don't like discussing it.

The effect is even more pronounced at what we loosely term "reference level" listening (varying from system and individual so much that Dolby proponents of the current HD schema can't for the life of them decide where this point should be.)

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

I'm beginning to think it differs by manufacturer. Two Onkyo users here say DRC only works with Dolby source material when invoked on the receiver, but I have two Pioneer Elite units, and three older model Technics units, that can invoke night mode on any source material.

Thanks. Here is what my Anthem manual has to say...

"as long as the soundtrack contains dynamic scaling information and at least 5.1 speakers are used"

It has 3 modes .. Normal, Reduced, Late Night.