Commentary from the Insiders Thread

[blitz6speed]

David, you keep saying you wont name your sources. Well, until you have factual proof of your claims, it is worth as much as amir saying BD50's are science fiction. You are a movie reviewer, not a real insider who is in the industry like Paid/Penton. You may have a few contacts here and there, but i would rank you right around where Beatboy77 is, which is a few decent contacts, but these contacts arent solid and will often mislead you to have fun with you.

No offense personally, i dont know you, but as far as your insider information goes, without proof, it is really nothing substantial at all. Good day to you.

[David Vaughn]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

I am assuming you mean the Transformers release?

If so, if the disc wasn't full, why would they need a second disc?

Yes, I meant The Transformers. Paramount has had 2-disc releases on a lot of their "new release" titles on both BD and HD DVD (Dreamgirls, MI:III, World Trade Center), so this isn't a first for them. In fact, Disney has done the same thing.

[David Vaughn]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

David, you keep saying you wont name your sources. Well, until you have factual proof of your claims, it is worth as much as amir saying BD50's are science fiction. You are a movie reviewer, not a real insider who is in the industry like Paid/Penton. You may have a few contacts here and there, but i would rank you right around where Beatboy77 is, which is a few decent contacts, but these contacts arent solid and will often mislead you to have fun with you.

No offense personally, i dont know you, but as far as your insider information goes, without proof, it is really nothing substantial at all. Good day to you.

I have never made a prediction of "big news" or anything along those lines. The only prediction that I made recently was about an upcoming dual format player, which I made late last week from one of my sources that would be the talk of CEDIA because it would actually comply with both HD DVD and BD specs (1.1). Which incedently, came true with the LG combo player.

[WickyWoo]

Using the DTS mix of Saving Private Ryan is not a good analogy of lossy vs lossless. You are talking about comparing a 750 kbps lossy DTS mix to a 640 kbps lossy DD mix. The DTS mix may have been great, better than the DD mix (I own both, so I agree); but I would bet dollars to donuts that a lossless (be it PCM, TrueHD, DTS-HR MA) mix derived from that same master would blow the DTS soundtrack away.

Not a fair compairson. This was still in the era where DTS did all the encodes and were using cooked mixes specifically tailored to the strengths of DTS.

If anything it's an example of how a format-centered release can shine, but not an a/b comparison.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

Not at all. But people on both sides of this don't want to admit to thier chosen formats shortcomings, neither is perfect.

Since you quoted me above Rob, I am assuming you're using me as an example of someone who does not want to admit that Blu-Ray is not perfect.

If that is the case, your wrong, I do think that HD DVD is ahead on the IME, but I am not interested in IME. I am interested in the best possible PQ and AQ not a gimmick. So that fact that HD DVD may be ahead of BR, at this point in time, is of no consequence to me.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

That is their own opinion. There are many people on both sides of this who own both, and frankly, most of those people are more reasonable to have discussions with on these forums because they at least have experience with both formats.

Well, I have both formats and have a preference for Blu-ray. While I realize and appreciate the fact that PQ can look great on HD-DVD (no question about it), I really do tend to get more annoyed with my HD-DVD player and the fact that it locks up on me so often (often being about every other movie or so recently). I prefer my Pioneer Elite BD player which is more dependable than my Toshiba player. I also like the fact that BD gives me more titles with lossless sound. And more space and bandwidth which I believe can make a difference in terms of PQ, AQ, and supplemental features, or a variation thereof. I think BD makes more sense as a format for the future and gives us the best chance of having it last for a while so we don't get another new format in a few short years.

[bryaaaant]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

If I had posted information saying that yields were "100%", then I bet I would be your best friend and everything I was saying was perfectly accurate because it was supporting "your side".

You're criticized/attacked not because you're going against Blu-ray, it's because:

1. You're going against a popular accepted figure (yield rates) that's been out for a while now from a trusted source.

2. You're making a big fuzz out of it (essentially creating FUD) even though it's not really an issue yet, nor a sure future scenario.

3. Something in the lines of "perfect timing". You decided to show up with those facts and figures from your "insiders" just when Amir was creating the same exact FUD.

[Proteus]

I carefully reviewed all the specs for each format.

I watched 'reference titles' from each format on the EXACT same television model side by side using the EXACT same audio set ups.

I watched dual releases (aka The Departed, etc.) on both formats using the same exact set ups.

I can tell you, without any hesitation, that Blu-ray offers a superior product on all counts concerning PQ/AQ.

Interactivity and all that marketing bullshit (which is what I, a senior marketing person, call it since all it really is is a way for you to get 'online' so you can buy more junk from them) means very little to me if anything. I do like 'deleted scenes' and the like. But frankly, I can do without seeing some of these hideously ugly directors on the PiP while listening to them talk during the film... I'd rather just watch the whole film, to be honest. I consider the PiP functionality as it stands a detriment actually. There really is _zero_ reason why someone who does not need to 'read lips' to understand needs to see the mug of a director while he is speaking (though I'm sure eventually it will have other uses).

Ultimately, it comes down to the best PQ/AQ possible with the most opportunities to be exploited not only in HDM but also in PC environments for storage and media... And, let's not forget _games_ (which currently HDDVD isn't durable enough to handle). I _want_ games that require BD50's to hold all their story and I truly believe that is the direction they are going.

HDDVD is a totally unfinished product. It is very odd to me that they always claim to be 'finished on release' but yet they constantly have had to patch their players 'stealth' to keep them updated (which is all Sony, et al, is doing to Blu-ray players through firmware updates). HDDVD was not 'finished on release' it was barely started. It still has no definitive PC burnable media protocol. It still lacks the durability to handle the heavy hands of gaming. It has no place at all right now, at it's current stage in development, for anything _but_ quasi-hidef movies. I'm sorry, but 1080i players is not 'hidef'. It is an extension of SD as far as I'm concerned. The blurring alone is frustration enough with interlacing for those of use with perfect eyesight (God bless grandma!).

Blu-ray has promoted a very open and clear vision to consumers and stated where exactly it is on it's development at all points. It has not resorted to harsh, and often misleading and untrue, name calling and bad mouthing to promote it's product. It has simply said 'this is what we offer and it's good.' HDDVD can't seem to every shut up about it's competition and all the things it's doing wrong. Why? Because they are trying to divert your attention so you don't realize how ridiculously far behind they are and how little they offer the consumer. It's all PR BS.

HDDVD can never just state the facts. They have to manipulate and twist things to make them work. Some call if FUD, I call it dishonesty and bad marketing. At the very least what they are doing is unethical.

Now, why would I want a format like that? Why would I want products from anti-competitive companies like that? There is no choice with HDDVD. They have on manufacturer. Screw that.

[WickyWoo]

Not at all. But people on both sides of this don't want to admit to thier chosen formats shortcomings, neither is perfect.

No one ever claimed perfection, but at the same time if you're going to point out flaws, let them be actual flaws, and everything we've researched on what you've been saying points to there at best being giant holes in your research at best, and intentional manipulation at worst.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

Just because I brought up some information about yields on BD50's doesn't mean I want the format to die.
...

For the record, this is question-begging. Despite requests, no such information about BD50 yields has been supplied: only implausible conjecture on a highly involved technical subject.

[David Forbes]

Originally Posted by blitz6speed

David, you keep saying you wont name your sources. Well, until you have factual proof of your claims, it is worth as much as amir saying BD50's are science fiction. You are a movie reviewer, not a real insider who is in the industry like Paid/Penton. You may have a few contacts here and there, but i would rank you right around where Beatboy77 is, which is a few decent contacts, but these contacts arent solid and will often mislead you to have fun with you.

No offense personally, i dont know you, but as far as your insider information goes, without proof, it is really nothing substantial at all. Good day to you.

I would rate David a great deal higher than beatboy.

[LynxFX]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

No, what I am saying is that people are saying that HD DVD is crap based upon specs without actually taking the time to sit down and look at the actual movies and are judging the other format based upon specs alone.

I'm a HT enthusiast but I'll never support HD DVD. Actually I should say, I'll never support two formats, HD DVD just happens to be the 'other' format in this case.

3 years ago I pleaded and screamed for the Studios and CE companies to choose a single optical format to replace DVD. We were very very close at the end of 2005. The white paper competition had already started with Blu-ray forcing HD DVD to drop the red laser nonsense and HD DVD forcing BD to adopt all available codecs. When the dust settled, there was nothing that HD DVD had that BD didn't have, or wouldn't have in the near future. There was plenty that BD had that HD DVD will never have. Max capacity per layer, and Max Bitrate. So I looked at who was supporting who and BD still had the overwhelming support industry wide. It also had the best specs on paper and the most potential in the R&D department for the future. The HD DVD specs have pretty much peaked at where they are right now. TL 51 is pretty much the best they could come up with and that already just equals what BD has as a proven market product. In the wings are BD-100, BD-200 etc.

Anyway, enough rambling. Basically I picked a single format, something the Studios should have done and I'm sticking with it. As far as I'm concerned, HD DVD is only dumbing down the HD formats and actually hurting BD and HDM acceptance as a whole. Neutral Studios have been encoding for the lowest common demoninator for quite awhile and sometimes just outright shunning BD. No lossless on Happy Feet for example, while HD DVD does get lossless. (one of the rare times they do)

Had HD DVD been the format to get the most support, have the most potential not only in the video market but PC market as well, then I would definitely support it over BD. I don't care about the companies involved, although MS's involvement has really soured my view of HD DVD and I'm usually an MS supporter.

So in short, I choose only one format because I am an enthusiast. I try to look beyond instant gratification which in a way HD DVD would give, and look beyond 2007 and see how it is hurting consumer acceptance and dumbing down HD in both PQ and AQ in terms of what is capable.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

Yes, I meant The Transformers. Paramount has had 2-disc releases on a lot of their "new release" titles on both BD and HD DVD (Dreamgirls, MI:III, World Trade Center), so this isn't a first for them. In fact, Disney has done the same thing.

File size? And disk type?

[Blu Titan]

iS dAVID AN iNSIDER?

[WickyWoo]

File size? And disk type?

MI3 was 2 BD-25, Dreamgirls 1 BD50 1 BD25, WTC was both 50s

[David Forbes]

Originally Posted by BlueNeon

iS dAVID AN iNSIDER?

He is considered one at AVS. I'm a bit more skeptical of that designation being given to a journalist and not someone working in the industry. Paid, Talk, Penton, etc., have direct, firsthand knowledge of specific parts of the industry, and access to other information they may not work with directly.

David, however, I would consider an 'outsider" with contacts, the same as journalists in other industries. I doubt he will be considered an insider here.

That's not a knock, I just don't agree with the AVS decision to bestow insider status on someone not actually "inside" the industry.

[Rob Tomlin]

Originally Posted by David Forbes

He is considered one at AVS. I'm a bit more skeptical of that designation being given to a journalist and not someone working in the industry. Paid, Talk, Penton, etc., have direct, firsthand knowledge of specific parts of the industry, and access to other information they may not work with directly.

David, however, I would consider an 'outsider" with contacts, the same as journalists in other industries. I doubt he will be considered an insider here.

That's not a knock, I just don't agree with the AVS decision to bestow insider status on someone not actually "inside" the industry.

I completely agree.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

MI3 was 2 BD-25, Dreamgirls 1 BD50 1 BD25, WTC was both 50s

Thanks, now all we need to know was how full the discs were.

Seems odd to me that if yields where so low, that they would "waste" discs unnecessarily don't you think? Surely if the content of both discs would fit on one, they would have put all the content on one disc to "save" the few remaining BDs available to them....

Now if yields were fine, then hey, why not give a second disc for the "value" feeling a customer would get.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by bryaaaant

Penton's right on the money on what I was thinking. Some major FUD, no?

Well I’m a simple man and I calls em as I sees em.

If future history shows me to have the wrong perception, then I will be the first person to publicly apologize to David Vaughn for what I’m about to say. And vice versa, he should apologize profusely to this forum when in his words………. “Paramount, Warner and Universal all eventually publish in Blu-ray only” and the future reveals no BD50 availability problems which belated proves all his *replication* posts turned out to be FUD.

David Vaughn, I’ll play your little game just this once with *sources that I can’t reveal*, *unverified data* and my own *theory*. I look at the forest (posting history) rather than one or two trees.

I don’t still read AVMS which is why this is *unverified data* but my *sources* tell me via PM and after reviewing a whole host of your previous posts on that forum that it is completely obvious that you play to the sensibilities of the HD DVD crowd with the tone of your posts, how they are presented and even the winky winks, grins, or other facial expressions that we can all add to our postings to give the right “atmosphere”. People tell me it’s like a tongue in cheek type thing over there, where you’re implying you’re an HD DVD guy to the listeners on AVMS but you just can’t reveal it.

More than one source has PM’ed me this same sentiment……all independent of each other. I imagine people here would have to review the last 100 posts or so of yours on AVMS to form their own opinion but, I would encourage them to do so before they engage in any serious discussions with you here. Myself, I prefer just to trust the *unverified data* on your AVMS posting history from my *sources*, which I can’t name.

So essentially, you come off to the readers on AVMS as being a movie reviewer/reporter type with an HD DVD bias, whereas, the posts that I see you’ve done here…. are more of the *choir boy, I’m neutral, all I care about is HDM* appearance. It reminds me of the same posting style(s) of the Tivo dealer over on AVMS. He would post on the Blu-ray hardware and Blu-ray software forums in the most un-aggressive, benign fashion promoting neutrality (“I am neutral, I sell players from both formats”) and then he would hop onto the HD DVD forums and a week later or so you would see him back stab the Blu-ray format either by implication, facial gestures or explicitly implied meanings……which the red ants just ate up.

So my *unverified data* from my *sources* that I can’t reveal have me form the hypothesis that you sir, are nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing at this point.
Clean up your act all over the internet and maybe with time, I’ll think differently.

Conversely, I am very familiar with the posting history of people like theLion, DaViD or Darin and if they were to post something negative about the Blu-ray format (theLion’s recent posting about an apparent problem with one of Disney’s titles, comes to mind) I would have no problem with that, because based on their previous posting history on AVMS, they demonstrate no evidence of format bias or hidden agenda. Plus, they’re sincere in their current posting style on this forum as they’ll list the problem or deficiency once, rather than riding it for all its worth with multiple never-ending addendums almost in an attention seeking fashion.

I think a man is a sum of his parts and we are just seeing a few on your *parts* on this forum, the *blu parts* so that you can engage in a discussion and portray yourself *above the fray* and sincere.

I don’t buy it.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

Penton,

Chad doesn't know who my sources are and I don't even know the gentleman that you have referenced above.

Well I believe that you told me in a PM, that “someone from Cinram contacted you earlier today and congratulated you on the accuracy of what you have posted at AVS.”

Isn’t that what you said ?
Is that correct…………word for word ?

So I would suggest you ask him who Dominick Dallaverde is.
And in regards to Cinram in general…….oh, how shall I word this, I think it would be accurate to say that Cinram are as Blu friendly as a “neutral” Toshiba dealer we all know and love that sells both HD DVD and Blu-ray players.

Did you get the tone of my post?