Commentary from the Insiders Thread

[NutsAboutPS3]

So, after all this time HD-DVD has been on the market, they've finally realised it needs more capacity, more bandwidth, and that everyone should buy a new player.

Yes, people, they've finally realised that what everyone really needs is BLU-RAY!

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by radagast

Furthermore, I will bet a buck or two that anyone buying a cheap hd-dvd player from China is going to be pissed when they find out they can't play a three layer hd-dvd.

It's highly likely that to hit $199 the Venturer got a sweet deal on Toshiba HD DVD drives.

Gary

[Jack Torrance]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but this alleged T51, or whatever they're going to call it.... won't it make the vast majority, heck if not all, HD-DVD players obsolete? This isn't something you can suddenly upgrade 300k players with a firmware update is it?

If so, then this is a potential disaster for HD-DVD...

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by The Guardian

Oh, and who cares if all current players won't be able to play these new movies. These are just the "early EARLY adopters" and it's only going to be important when we get to the "early adopters".

Let's get this all straight. The original early adopters, later redubbed by Graffeo the early early adopters, are now actually the early early early adopters. The adopters who came after the early adopters, aka the early early early adopters, are properly the adopters (simpliciter) but shall hereafter be referred to as "the early early adopters". By parity of reasoning the adopters who come after the adopters (simpliciter), aka the early early adopters, are really the early adopters. However, there do not seem to be any adopters, at least none we'd call by that name. That will not occur until the 4-layer HD-DVD is approved, at which time the early early early adopters will be redubbed the early early early early adopters ...

[RedSnoddyBLU]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

Disney going neutral is far more unlikely than Uni or Warner going neutral/exclusive

Disney specifically asked for BD+ style protection and region coding, and Toshiba refused them. Both things are HUGELY important to them. With AACS essetially cracked wide open, don't look for that to happen....pretty much ever barring highly improbably Blu disaster.

Aside from the technical stuff, Disney's Magical Blu-ray Tour at malls all across America running up until Christmas is a pretty strong indicator of them sticking with Blu for the foreseeable future.

Shouldn't a lot of these recent posts be moved to the commentary thread? Lots of good input, but I check this thread to see what the insider's are saying, and it's a little annoying to have to wade through lots of posts from non insiders to get to what the insiders have to say.

[David Vaughn]

Originally Posted by degas

I'm sorry David, but I'm inclined to agree with this.
Since you are not a true insider, but merely somone who gets information out of others, why are you even claiming insider status?

If everybody would do that, then lots and lots of people could claim to be insiders, which would excavate the meaning of the term.

I think your ambition to be regarded as "someone in the know", has clouded your judgement.

Once again, I don't "claim" insider status. If you look at my very first post on AVS after they asked me to be an insider, which according to their rules would allow me to answer questions in that thread, I called myself an ousider, regardless of what AVS wanted to call me. Here is the link to my response to someone welcoming me:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post11442490

I consider myself an "outside insider" with some really good "insider" sources

So at least we agree on one thing.

As far as "wanting to be someone in the know", it has nothing to do with that. I have a passion for anything Home Theater related, and have had it for many, many years. I have also made some good relationships with people in this business over the past 4 years on the studio level, CE level, and on the manufacturing side. With those relationships, it has allowed me access to better information from sources "in the know".

[David Vaughn]

If TL51 discs come to market and they don't play in currently released players, you can bet HD DVD will be butchered in the press and by the early adopter crowd, and deservedly so. I will be first in line.

But that being said, I would be shocked if we ever see these things with movies on them.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by Jack Torrance

Correct me if I'm wrong... but this alleged T51, or whatever they're going to call it.... won't it make the vast majority, heck if not all, HD-DVD players obsolete? This isn't something you can suddenly upgrade 300k players with a firmware update is it?

If so, then this is a potential disaster for HD-DVD...

We need more information to reach any firm conclusions, but the current wisdom is that, if they only increase the disc size, only G1 players won't play TL51's. If they also monkey with the bandwidth, all bets are off. It's hard to imagine any business entity so severely screwing their current user base (well, except for Paramount of course) so we'll see.

[Jamh]

Originally Posted by Teazle

Let's get this all straight. The original early adopters, later redubbed by Graffeo the early early adopters, are now actually the early early early adopters. The adopters who came after the early adopters, aka the early early early adopters, are properly the adopters (simpliciter) but shall hereafter be referred to as "the early early adopters". By parity of reasoning the adopters who come after the adopters (simpliciter), aka the early early adopters, are really the early adopters. However, there do not seem to be any adopters, at least none we'd call by that name. That will not occur until the 4-layer HD-DVD is approved, at which time the early early early adopters will be redubbed the early early early early adopters ...

Lol, that made my head hurt. It's funny how HD-DVD fans are applauding this move although these discs won't be compatible with all players, yet decry Blu-ray because PiP won't be compatible with all players. Hmmm, do I want to see the movie or a talking head discussing the movie?

[Proteus]

I will agree with Mr. Vaughn here. I really really doubt we will see any movies on these discs... especially within the next six months to a year. There are WAY too many variables.

All it is is a license to move ahead with the technology. That is all.

BTW, I apologize for telling you to 'go die', Mr. Vaughn. That was a bit extreme. Was still coming off my frustration rants about how poor quality of a game release Warhawk has been with all it's bugs and problems. I sincerely hope you can accept it. Thank you.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Jamh

Lol, that made my head hurt. It's funny how HD-DVD fans are applauding this move although these discs won't be compatible with all players, yet decry Blu-ray because PiP won't be compatible with all players. Hmmm, do I want to see the movie or a talking head discussing the movie?

If it's true that the 51GB discs won't play in existing HD-DVD players, it's tantamount to introducing a totally new format all of the players for which just happen to play the older HD-DVD discs too. When you get down to it, the TL51s would not be HD-DVDs (as we now understand the format) except in name.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Jack Torrance

Correct me if I'm wrong... but this alleged T51, or whatever they're going to call it.... won't it make the vast majority, heck if not all, HD-DVD players obsolete? This isn't something you can suddenly upgrade 300k players with a firmware update is it?

If so, then this is a potential disaster for HD-DVD...

And what about all those Xboxers with hd-dud drives that won't play them either? And the PCs Toshiba has sold with hd-dud drives?

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Teazle

Let's get this all straight. The original early adopters, later redubbed by Graffeo the early early adopters, are now actually the early early early adopters. The adopters who came after the early adopters, aka the early early early adopters, are properly the adopters (simpliciter) but shall hereafter be referred to as "the early early adopters". By parity of reasoning the adopters who come after the adopters (simpliciter), aka the early early adopters, are really the early adopters. However, there do not seem to be any adopters, at least none we'd call by that name. That will not occur until the 4-layer HD-DVD is approved, at which time the early early early adopters will be redubbed the early early early early adopters ...

LOL!!! Great!!

Obviously if hd-dvd goes ahead with plans for a 3-layer hd-dvd, EVERYONE who has bought hd-dud players will be nothing more than field testers for a product still in development.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Unless they changed something, TL51 is a DVD-14 form factor, so a DL and SL glued together with an optically transparent glue layer.

Think of the yield problems with that.

Are you sure about this? If you're right, yields would probably be very poor indeed - low enough to make HD/SD combo discs look positively healthy in comparison.

I'm just curious about how Toshiba intends to remove the problem of crosstalk between layers. Crosstalk is the primary reason we've never seen triple layer DVDs (look up the information on HD VMD for some in-depth analysis of how they supposedly got around the crosstalk problem), and I don't see how making the data tolerance even lower makes it any less of a problem.

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Are you sure about this? If you're right, yields would probably be very poor indeed - low enough to make HD/SD combo discs look positively healthy in comparison.

I'm just curious about how Toshiba intends to remove the problem of crosstalk between layers. Crosstalk is the primary reason we've never seen triple layer DVDs (look up the information on HD VMD for some in-depth analysis of how they supposedly got around the crosstalk problem), and I don't see how making the data tolerance even lower makes it any less of a problem.

And what format was supposed to be "science fiction"? Oh that's right, BD50s, the ones that are sitting on my shelf right now and work perfectly.

[David Vaughn]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I will agree with Mr. Vaughn here. I really really doubt we will see any movies on these discs... especially within the next six months to a year. There are WAY too many variables.

All it is is a license to move ahead with the technology. That is all.

BTW, I apologize for telling you to 'go die', Mr. Vaughn. That was a bit extreme. Was still coming off my frustration rants about how poor quality of a game release Warhawk has been with all it's bugs and problems. I sincerely hope you can accept it. Thank you.

Accepted. Thanks. I used to love playing video games, but with two kids and doing HD DVD/BD/DVD and equipment reviews...now I don't have time!

[LeoneFan]

The one thing I don't understand is how can a home theater enthusiast and movie lover like Mr. Vaughn cheerlead the lesser format? I guess watching movies in his HT at the best quality possible is not very important to him just like all the other HDDVD supporters.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by David Vaughn

If TL51 discs come to market and they don't play in currently released players, you can bet HD DVD will be butchered in the press and by the early adopter crowd, and deservedly so. I will be first in line.

But that being said, I would be shocked if we ever see these things with movies on them.

Even the twin form? Why go to all the R&D, DVD Forum submission and approval, if there is no intent on using it?

Gary

[Jamh]

Maybe this is why they bought Paramount, so they'd be around long enough to make back some of the money they're spending on developing these things.

[Proteus]

Here is why, Gary:

"So why is the DVD Forum involved with this? The DVD Forum represents HD DVD as a standard (while the HD DVD Promotions Group represents its public face). It has an interest in seeing more HD DVD players manufactured at lower prices to the consumer."

That's from this article:

http://www.betanews.com/article/New_...e/1189196071/2

As I said in that thread on here, they can approve anything they want any time they want if it will help their marketing. It doesn't even have to work. It's all just a ruse.