Poll: Subtitle positioning in wider ratio (2.20+) movies on Sony Blu-ray Discs

[Really?]

As I'm sure it's been said in this thread countless times (I didn't read through all of it), show it like it was shown in the theater, which is how we CIHers want to see it - in the picture!

[Spymaster]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I remember titles like Star Trek VI, the Star Wars original trilogy, Patton, Tora! Tora! Tora!, and many other LaserDiscs had all subtitles in the band. Star Trek VI even had off-centered letterboxing to allow a greater black area at the bottom for them!

That's true actually. Those lasers - particular Star Trek VI - were crap.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

But only for those films formatted in that format. There is no series programming that I am aware of that is in 'scope ratio.

All the talk of "the future" has been about some kind of 3-D display technology and the possible format battles over it. 21:9 is a niche of a niche. You think there's problems with getting people to buy catalog titles now, what about the thousands of titles that are 4x3? 21x9 displays will have severe pillarboxing on those titles.

I will still argue 21:9 will never be mainstream in my lifetime, even the 4K demos made are still in a 16x9 ratio.
...

21x9 is not a niche – not at all. It is a well established content standard that has been around for decades - people like it - in fact, people love it. As I understand 60% of movies made are ~21x9. In India where highest number of movies are made and watched, ~21x9 aspect movies, I think, are high as 95%. I watch many Bollywood movies and rarely see one with ~16x9 aspect.

I am 100% sure that the manufacturers are capitalising on this human desire and well established content standard. If not they must be crazy.

The technology should and will be tailored to content standards. Not other way around. I cannot believe people suggesting to tailor content to a particular display "technology" and make that content useless with other current and future display technologies. I really cannot grasp that desire and concept...

In order to make content universally compatible with all current and future display technologies, subtitles must be placed within the picture (if cannot be moved by the user). The subs will be slim-line, scaled and well integrated for effortless and seamless reading. People can read subs even without realising that they are reading subs. We are not talking about fat and ugly SD/DVD subs.

When price is right (in few years time), super-wide 21x9 sets can be easily sold, once a scope movie is demonstrated with and without blackbars. Scope is just beautiful on super-wide sets. Today almost every household has a secondary set. Future cannot be any different. In five years (when price is right) that secondary set will be 21x9.

The amount of 4x3 content watched on a regular basis will reduce exponentially from now on. In few years, 95% regularly watched content will be 16x9 and 21x9. How many 4x3 movies you could find in a video rental store? No point of talking about 4x3.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Okay, I think the benefits of option 1 have been clearly stated:

• To allow CIH system users to properly view all the subtitles
• To best recreate the original theatrical presentation of the subtitles
• To maximize eye contact with the visuals while being able to read the subtitles
• To reduce eye strain from having to read one line of subtitles in the image (which could be bright) and one line of subtitles in the underlying dark bar

What exactly are the benefits of option 2 (one line in the picture and one line in the dark bar)? Honestly, I can't think of any.

If one of two options (with the third being abstain) in the poll is clearly better than the other, how can they be "promoted" equally?

I think they are even more clear

1) most people don't have CIH and they can better view them if they are more out
2) You don't ruine the image by having graphity all over it
3) you see more of the picture
4) guys like Grubert alreagy pointed out that hhe needs subtitles for his wife, but he understands english so why shouldn't he have them as much out of his view as possible. Now most of us are not in that situation (and subtitles means "I need them") but it even happened to me a few months ago when I had a relative from Greece in town and decided to watch Hellboy since it was one of the few with Greek subtitles.
5) the black bars are there and wasterd space, why not use as much of it as possible
6) contrasting letters on a uniform backdround are much easier to read then if the background is not uniform (especialy if the letters also end up blending with the background.

On the other hand except for the first one that inside is beneficial to CIH set-ups the rest are pretty bogus.

2) why would anyone care? I have never heard anyone talking about a movie and focusing on the subtitles (except for a few people that won't watch international films because "why would I want to read"), you don't try and recreate everything in the theatre, so why subs?this is just a disguised #1

3)the subs are covering the visuals, how are you maximizing them?

4)unless you have CIH the black bars are there, so is black bars cause eye strain then most people should have it all the time. On the other hand light letters on a bright background can be an issue, but they would be worst if both lines where in the pic then they both will have that issue.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by rdodolak

I've remained quite on the issue but I've wondered how accurate this poll really is and whether the sample statistic really reflects the true population. I by no means want to silence any individual and do think it's important to here both sides and have a healthy debate. However, as several posters have previously mentioned this poll has been posted in other forums. There is nothing worng with that but if you look at where some voters for Option 1 posted those links on other forums you have to call into question whether this poll truely respresents the overall population. When this poll is posted in CIH forums or threads, on other sites, the majority of the individuals that will see that posting are CIH owners or those interested in CIH setups. A better place would have been to post links to a neutral thread that all users have an equal chance of viewing. Very few non-CIH users are going to venture into that arena especially with CIH still being a niche market. Shortly after those posts you saw the stastics of this poll flip and I'm inclined to believe the above is the reason for it.

I see nothing wrong with people voicing their opinion or trying to educate others on why one choice may be better than the other. However, I do think some have gone about it the wrong way. I also disagree with the argruments that CIH owners have no way to view movies with subtitles in the black bars. There are ways but those ways appear to be unacceptable to some CIH users. There's a distinct difference between not possible and not acceptable.

With that said, I don't have an issue with option 1 as long as the subtitles aren't gigantic and cover a large portion of the original picture. It's my opinion that subtitles should be propotional to the subtitles used in the theatrical showing.

agree, and I don't have an issue with #1 either. My issue is with the BS posted by some. That is why I voted #3 and not #2. I see and understand the benefit of #1, my reply was not because I care what Sony will do, but just calling it as it is. The issue is not bias articles or other stuff, and it is not with people trying to skew the poll in their favour. Both are normal human nature. But it is about people pretending the results won't be tinted by making it one sided or as syncguy said only a biased poll would be valid because anyone else can't comprehend what inside the active picture and one line in the active picture and one line below means.

Like I said before, if Sony is interested in what their customers prefer, then this poll is useless, in the end you don't know what the real % would be so you can't base a conclusion (it would be like reading the Harris poll that came out a bit earlier this year and deciding HD DVD is beating the crap out of BD. It would be like polling some people in California (or Texas) and thinking it would be a good representation of the US and who will win the Presidency)

On the other hand if the poll is to judge interest in changing them to inside, then the poll definitely shows there are a few people interested in that.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think they are even more clear
...
4)unless you have CIH the black bars are there, so is black bars cause eye strain then most people should have it all the time.
...

Yes, many people are uncomfortable with blackbars. Others on this thread have attempted to explain that by giving reasons like high contrast, eye travel, distraction, eye strain and so on.

Of course those reasons are not scientifically proven, however, it is fact and 100% true that many millions around the world hate blackbars and they zoom. I believe that those many millions are not represented in this poll as blu-ray.com members are overwhelmingly non-zoomers.

When subs are placed on the blackbar, those many millions are forced not to zoom and make them live with hated blackbars. How can they enjoy a movie like that ....

Please don’t say zooming is wrong – I know that – but many millions do it.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'd say there's overwhelmingly more folks with 4x3 HDTV displays (CRTs and smaller LCDs, as well as computer monitors) than those with 21:9. What about them?

I think technically they are called EDTV not HDTV. HDTV=16:9

on thge other hand I agree with you, there are more likely many more people using 4:3 sets out there then 21:9 (especialy since there is no such thing as a 21:9 set)

also the whole 21:9 is just BS invented by some of the CIH guys. Ye4s I know Philips showed a prototype they never plan on manufacturing, but 21:9 is not in the BD specs, so it will always need to be 16:9 and if someone releases a 21:9 display and then zoom into 21:9 and cover the whole screen while losing what is above or below. But like every 16:9 display today if it is the wrong aspect ratio (like 4:3) then it adds black bars on the side in the end even if subs are forgotten for a second content with AR<21:9 will always exist and will always have to be displayed properly.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Spymaster

Blu-ray should not be catering to the lowest common denominator. It should at least be striving to present the film as intended by the film-makers, and that means keeping the subtitles as part of the picture!

agree, no subtitles, learn the bloody language. I am sure the director of Black Book did not intend for there to be subs in his Dutch film.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think technically they are called EDTV not HDTV. HDTV=16:9

on thge other hand I agree with you, there are more likely many more people using 4:3 sets out there then 21:9 (especialy since there is no such thing as a 21:9 set)

HD programming is 16x9, but there were plenty of TV sets that were HD and had a 4x3 shape, displaying a full resolution 720p or 1080i signal such as Sony's KV-40XBR800. This sucker was over 300 pounds but beat the pants off of any LCD or plasma at the time.

I remember the debates and there were a lot of people asking "should i get **** set in 36" or 34"? What will give me more picture?" Since there was only a handful of HD channels to get...

Of course anything HD on these sets was letterboxed.

There were also plenty of 16x9 EDTVs. EDTV being 480p resolution only.

Here's one with a PS3 attached:
http://img5.imageshack.us/i/ghettohd.jpg/

Looks like he's watching Superman Returns. Look at all that blank space, and imagine how tiny subs would be on there if relegated to the active picture only.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by syncguy

Yes, many people are uncomfortable with blackbars. Others on this thread have attempted to explain that by giving reasons like high contrast, eye travel, distraction, eye strain and so on.

Of course those reasons are not scientifically proven, however, it is fact and 100% true that many millions around the world hate blackbars and they zoom. I believe that those many millions are not represented in this poll as blu-ray.com members are overwhelmingly non-zoomers.

When subs are placed on the blackbar, those many millions are forced not to zoom and make them live with hated blackbars. How can they enjoy a movie like that ....

Please don’t say zooming is wrong – I know that – but many millions do it.

I know that some zoom (or stretch) to fill the screen, I have a few friends that do it. But I don't think I ever heard "black bars hurt the eyes" the one they used was "I paid for a X screen and I want to use it to its fullest, the black bars make the image smaller."

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

on thge other hand I agree with you, there are more likely many more people using 4:3 sets out there then 21:9 (especialy since there is no such thing as a 21:9 set)

also the whole 21:9 is just BS invented by some of the CIH guys. Ye4s I know Philips showed a prototype they never plan on manufacturing, but 21:9 is not in the BD specs, so it will always need to be 16:9 and if someone releases a 21:9 display and then zoom into 21:9 and cover the whole screen while losing what is above or below. But like every 16:9 display today if it is the wrong aspect ratio (like 4:3) then it adds black bars on the side in the end even if subs are forgotten for a second content with AR<21:9 will always exist and will always have to be displayed properly.

16x9 happen to be a technology standard. The technology will evolve to make life comfortable for people and it will evolve around human desires. Please try to understand that. As I said previously, 21x9 is a well established content standard for decades which people "love" and supported by many billions of dollars worth investment.

The manufacturers are capitalising on that human desire to love 21x9 content. 21x9 sets are currently shipping and will be common in five years time as given in my post:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=465

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by syncguy

21x9 is not a niche – not at all. It is a well established content standard that has been around for decades - people like it - in fact, people love it. As I understand 60% of movies made are ~21x9. In India where highest number of movies are made and watched, ~21x9 aspect movies, I think, are high as 95%. I watch many Bollywood movies and rarely see one with ~16x9 aspect.

For movies only. No TV shows.

I am 100% sure that the manufacturers are capitalising on this human desire and well established content standard. If not they must be crazy.

It's not a television standard. Watch any 'scope movie on HBO and tell me if it's 21x9 or not. There are plenty more "black bar" haters out there than people who have CIH setups.

When price is right (in few years time), super-wide 21x9 sets can be easily sold, once a scope movie is demonstrated with and without blackbars. Scope is just beautiful on super-wide sets. Today almost every household has a secondary set. Future cannot be any different. In five years (when price is right) that secondary set will be 21x9.

But then any HD programming they would watch would be pillarboxed. Unless a person is watching 'scope movies 24/7 they would still have black bars to deal with. I just watched Coraline and it's 1.85.

How many 4x3 movies you could find in a video rental store? No point of talking about 4x3.

Um, I just watched For All Mankind (Criterion BD) and it's 4x3. Snow White this fall is 4x3. The general public will not tolerate that amount of pillarboxing on their HD programming.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Spymaster

True. And thus the placement of subtitles is entirely up to the distributor of that film in whatever country it's being shown in. However, if the film has specifically designed subtitles for foreign markets - e.g. Night Watch - then those captions should be transferred across to home video.

1) like other said it is not one of the options so get over it
2) it is impossible. Let's take Nightwatch. IT has English, French, Spanish, Korean, Mandarin and Cantonese, so what do you do? have 7 copies (there needs to be one without subs) of the movie on the disk?
3) what if different regional theatrical distributions had different subs I don't know if Nightwatch had different subs in US, UK or Australia but many movies make separate translations for Quebec and France? But assuming that a movie has two distinct subs of the same language? what is the "correct one"

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

For movies only. No TV shows.
It's not a television standard. Watch any 'scope movie on HBO and tell me if it's 21x9 or not. There are plenty more "black bar" haters out there than people who have CIH setups.

16x9 tech standard will evolve around the human desire to "love" 21x9 content. No one can stop that. 21x9 sets are already shipping. I even see ads appearing on HD channels letterboxed to give 21x9 aspect!

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

But then any HD programming they would watch would be pillarboxed. Unless a person is watching 'scope movies 24/7 they would still have black bars to deal with. I just watched Coraline and it's 1.85.

Multiple TV sets is the norm today. How can that be different in the future? People will keep both 16x9 and 21x9.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Um, I just watched For All Mankind (Criterion BD) and it's 4x3. Snow White this fall is 4x3. The general public will not tolerate that amount of pillarboxing on their HD programming.

What % 4x3 can be found in a general video store? At least 1%. Not sure...

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by syncguy

16x9 happen to be a technology standard. The technology will evolve to make life comfortable for people and it will evolve around human desires. Please try to understand that. As I said previously, 21x9 is a well established content standard for decades which people "love" and supported by many billions of dollars worth investment.

The manufacturers are capitalising on that human desire to love 21x9 content. 21x9 sets are currently shipping and will be common in five years time as given in my post:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=465

1) you can quote yourself as many times as you want, it does not change the fact that there is no 21:9 and just because you believe it will be mainstream in 5 years does not make it so. First and fore most there is no 21:9 TVs now and most people are not like me upgrading every few years and they wait for their TVs to die. That is why HDTV took so long to catch up. 10, 20 years maybe but even those predictions are probably unrealistic.

2) 21:9 is not a BD (or DVD or VHS or NTSC or ATSC) spec that means it is impossible for there to be a true 21:9 BD disk (or DVD…), so if someone where to build a 21:9 only set (i.e. accepts only 21:9 input) then it would be completely useless for watching anything but proprietary content form a new media.

3) most content (All TV, almost all movies pre-19790's) are in ratios smaller then 21:9 so if they are to be visible the TV would need to be able to show content that is more square then 21:9

4) If the content can show none proprietary media and can show every movie then they can obviously show 21:9 content letterboxed in a 16:9 frame with the subtitles in the black bars exactly the same way they would show stuff that has a real 16:9 AR. So pretending existing disks won’t work just because the subs are outside the 21:9 image is nuts.

[phansson]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

1) First and fore most there is no 21:9 TVs now .

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

1) you can quote yourself as many times as you want, it does not change the fact that there is no 21:9 and just because you believe it will be mainstream in 5 years does not make it so. First and fore most there is no 21:9 TVs now and most people are not like me upgrading every few years and they wait for their TVs to die. That is why HDTV took so long to catch up. 10, 20 years maybe but even those predictions are probably unrealistic.

HDTV took sometime to pickup because the price was not right. Check in a store to see how many people purchasing new TVs everyday. These days people are agile to tech change - it is vastly different to last fifty years. They do not wait until their five year old set dies. They will go for the latest if they like or love it and price is right. It is an easy sell once a scope movie is demonstrated on a 21x9 set.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

2) 21:9 is not a BD (or DVD or VHS or NTSC or ATSC) spec that means it is impossible for there to be a true 21:9 BD disk (or DVD…), so if someone where to build a 21:9 only set (i.e. accepts only 21:9 input) then it would be completely useless for watching anything but proprietary content form a new media.

3) most content (All TV, almost all movies pre-19790's) are in ratios smaller then 21:9 so if they are to be visible the TV would need to be able to show content that is more square then 21:9

4) If the content can show none proprietary media and can show every movie then they can obviously show 21:9 content letterboxed in a 16:9 frame with the subtitles in the black bars exactly the same way they would show stuff that has a real 16:9 AR. So pretending existing disks won’t work just because the subs are outside the 21:9 image is nuts.

No need to go into technology analysis. Simple fact is technology evolves around human desires. 21x9 sets will be purchased to watch scope content in the way that they were made to be watched and in the way that people love such content. It is really nuts to propose for people to stampbox scope content on a 21x9 set because content is artificially limited to 16x9 sets by placing subs on blackbars.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by phansson

No blackbars - just beautiful for 21x9 (2.35:1) content which is loved by billions of people around the world.

Blu-ray standard cannot move raster-subtitles and therefore blu-ray blackbar subs are not compatible with this display which is the future. Slim-line, scaled HD subs should be placed within the blu-ray HD picture to make blu-ray subs compatible with this and other evolving technologies.

[Anthony P]

so phansson where can I buy one

[Eternal_Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so phansson where can I buy one

All over Europe you can...

http://www.grobi.tv/seiten/neuigkeit...ilips21-9.html