Poll: Should Sony use DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD?

[Apophis906]

Originally Posted by saprano

And how do you know this?

Well that explains why i thought the dialog was low at the usual volume i listen to DTS tracks with. its was clear, just a bit on the low side. or it could be because thats how they recorded it.

I used eac3to to check the audio tracks. It shows if it has dialognorm or not. I just checked First Blood because I had remembered that I had seen some Rambo movie with dialognorm on the DTS track.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Apophis906

Actually it does have dialognorm. The Watchmen DTS track is at -4, which equals to a Dolby -27. Also First Blood has dialognorm set at -4 for its DTS track.

Not exactly, it means both are at -27 (31-4 = 27), so the DialNorm is at studio standard level.

[Apophis906]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Not exactly, it means both are at -27 (31-4 = 27), so the DialNorm is at studio standard level.

Thanks, that was what I was trying to get across with saying equal to Dolby at -27. That both were at the same level.

[BIslander]

Two conditions are required before DN affects playback loudness. 1. A dialnorm value is entered in the metadata during encoding. 2. The decoder adjusts the output based on that value.

It is my understanding that DTS has an option for DN on the encode side. But, to the best of my knowledge, DTS decoders don't do anything with it at this time.

So, let me ask how anyone who observes lower volume from dts-MA discs has linked it to dialnorm adjustments by the decoders? Similarly, what does DTS consider the proper level for average dialog? -27, -31, something else? Is that published somewhere?

[saprano]

So does the watchmen have dialog norm or not? i thought it was said that DTS doesn't use it? yes the option is there but its never used.

[AnimeOnBlu]

Originally Posted by saprano

So does the watchmen have dialog norm or not? i thought it was said that DTS doesn't use it? yes the option is there but its never used.

It was confirmed that the GER Version of Mutant Chronicles uses it on the English 7.1 DTS-HD HR track.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

To the people whining about DialNorm, what do you all think about Watchmen being in DTS-HD MA and being 4-5db lower than normal?

Only 10% of the people in this poll would have any reason to whine about it - it's one of the reasons DTS triumphed, in this tiny nook of the universe.

I would guess you're not upset about it, anyway. Not that anyone believes Dialnorm was applied to a DTS movie.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

And lets not get into a debate about how smart you have to be to dissable DRC.

Fine with me.

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

We've gone over plenty of times that there's only been one title to accidently enable it.

One title that was completely egregious about it, anyway. I have yet to see anybody explain when and how it's engaged, or why you'd need to fiddle with the menu to turn it off, for that matter.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by AnimeOnBlu

It was confirmed that the GER Version of Mutant Chronicles uses it on the English 7.1 DTS-HD HR track.

I don't think that ever received a Stateside release - no telling what kind of mess was made of that release.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by AnimeOnBlu

It was confirmed that the GER Version of Mutant Chronicles uses it on the English 7.1 DTS-HD HR track.

Do any DTS decoders act on the dialnorm metadata?

[AnimeOnBlu]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Do any DTS decoders act on the dialnorm metadata?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1098946

Ask Xradman as he was the one who posted about it.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by saprano

i thought it was said that DTS doesn't use it? yes the option is there but its never used.

"Used" is a loose term here. I believe DTS encoders have a metadata field for a dialnorm value. If so, it is always "used" in that some value has to be entered. But, if the decoder doesn't do anything with the dialnorm value, then it is never "used" to affect the audio output.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by AnimeOnBlu

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1098946

Ask Xradman as he was the one who posted about it.

Thanks. Xradman's post says his Denon 3808 reported a DN offset with the German Region B release of Mutant Chroicles. So, it would appear the decoder on that Denon must be using DTS dialnorm value.

[davcole]

Originally Posted by BozQ

Yup! Exactly!
Let's take Ip Man for example (many thanks to the person for this info)

LPCM Audio Cantonese 6144 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 6144 kbps / 16-bit
DTS-HD Master Audio Cantonese 2681 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 2681 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
Dolby TrueHD Audio Cantonese 1766 kbps 7.1 / 48 kHz / 1766 kbps / 16-bit (AC3 Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps)


The Cantonese track is in LPCM, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. only.

Let's assume the LPCM, TrueHD, and DTS MA 16-bit tracks are all identical. There is absolutely no enhancement made whatsoever to give one track the edge.

The runtime for this film is approx. 107 minutes

DTS-HD + DTS Core = 2GB exactly
Dolby TrueHD + Dolby Digital 640kbps = 1.798GB

That's a mere 200MB difference. Way too little to make any form of impact on the video itself. Oh and let's not forget, if DTS-HD is being used to encode in 24-bit, the filesize will be much larger than 2GB too.

So the arguement about Dolby requiring a seperate companion track and wasting disc space is moot. In most likely cases, Dolby TrueHD will still require lesser amount of disc space. But like I said earlier, the differences is way too minor to affect the video in any significant way.

PS: There is A LOT of calculations made to arrive at the two filesizes for DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD. But I'm not going to post the formula here unless you really want me to do so. I've also taken the DTS-Core has part of DTS-HD stream into the calcuations as well. So as far as I can help it, that is the accurate file szie.

Thanks for pointing out the example. It would be interesting to compare with a 24bit track.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by davcole

Thanks for pointing out the example. It would be interesting to compare with a 24bit track.

I actually thought of one. TrondheimSolistene: Divertimenti
It's a BD Audio that comes with LPCM, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD.
But I just realised Dolby TrueHD is in 16-bit audio, while LPCM and DTS-HD is 24-bit.

Otherwise, all three had a killer sampling rate of 192KHz!
Not a great comparison anyway, since we're mostly discussing movies and BD audio's focus is hardly on a single second of video.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Quite true, but only meaningful if you establish that playback is actually changing the output. Are you saying that the differences people in this thread have described can be attributed to those types of playback alterations? If so, how did you come to that conclusion? If not, what is your point?

Not at all, I assume they are wrong and let's face it making a proper test is nearly impossible, and I am sure 99.9% (if not more) have not done any test. My issue is that in the end we can't be certain. That certainty that they are wrong and stupid is what bothers me especially when it is coupled with lossless is lossless. I used DTS and 7.1 because we all know it won't sound the same, is it better or not, that was a discussion I did not wish to enter which is why I asked my first question (bit same, sound same or DTHD is better)

[ClaytonMG]

Just some food for thought, on my reciever when I bitstream the DTS track from Watchmen (instead of having my PS3 decode the HD track) it does actually say "Dialnorm -4db."

[Robert Siegel]

I am NOT saying that either format is better, but one case I have found is the Twister Blu-ray. Released in the UK in DTS MA 24 bit and in the US in Dolby True 16 bit. I am very familiar with this soundtrack, have seen the movie dozens of times. The UK version is superior without question. I own both and while I have no tools for measuring anything, and certainly can't make a statement to be sure, my opinion is that the DTS MA version is far superior. I imagine that this was a different transfer, as the picture also is much better than the US version (it was released by Universal in the UK so probably a different video master). The bitrate on the UK version is much higher in sound and picture as well. Generally, though, I feel there should be no difference between DTS MA and Dolby True, and if there is, the master is probably different.

Anyway if you buy Twister, buy the one from Amazon UK on the Universal label.

[trans22]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Just some food for thought, on my reciever when I bitstream the DTS track from Watchmen (instead of having my PS3 decode the HD track) it does actually say "Dialnorm -4db."

Typical WARNER, they give people DTS and still mess around with the sound, message to warner: DON'T USE DIALNORM IT'S NOT NEEDED.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by BIslander

It is my understanding that DTS has an option for DN on the encode side. But, to the best of my knowledge, DTS decoders don't do anything with it at this time.

they both do, DN can be off for DTHD

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by mntwister

I am NOT saying that either format is better, but one case I have found is the Twister Blu-ray. Released in the UK in DTS MA 24 bit and in the US in Dolby True 16 bit. I am very familiar with this soundtrack, have seen the movie dozens of times. The UK version is superior without question. I own both and while I have no tools for measuring anything, and certainly can't make a statement to be sure, my opinion is that the DTS MA version is far superior. I imagine that this was a different transfer, as the picture also is much better than the US version (it was released by Universal in the UK so probably a different video master). The bitrate on the UK version is much higher in sound and picture as well. Generally, though, I feel there should be no difference between DTS MA and Dolby True, and if there is, the master is probably different.

Anyway if you buy Twister, buy the one from Amazon UK on the Universal label.

but you are comparing 24bit to 16bit, how does it say anything about the difference between Dolby and DTS?