Batman: Caped Crusader (HBOMax Animated Series) (Abrams and Reeves)

[Batmon77]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Discovery was one. Also the first two seasons of Picard.

There's also the point that I made about how BTAS wasn't the first Batman cartoon series. So your argument doesn't hold up in that sense.

Star Trek continues to make new material and folks dont cry thats its not like 60s Star Trek. The groups that like all the shows that came after dont seem to moan about how its not like the OG.

The shows timeline isn't relevant or whether it was "first".

Christopher Reeve isnt the first Superman, Christopher Pike pre-dates Kirk, and Adam West voiced Batman twice prior to Conroy.

And the quality wasnt a factor either, its fans being stuck on one version/iteration while various versions exist.

Feel free to create another new narrative.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Batmon77

The shows timeline isn't relevant or whether it was "first".

Christopher Reeve isnt the first Superman, Christopher Pike pre-dates Kirk, and Adam West voiced Batman twice prior to Conroy.

And the quality wasnt a factor either, its fans being stuck on one version/iteration while various versions exist.

Feel free to create another new narrative.

As opposed to your narrative, which doesn't really hold water in the first place?

BTAS (in cluing TNBA), Batman the Caped Crusader, The Adventures of Batman, and most other cartoon are completely separate series/incarnations of Batman.

Where as all Star Trek shows are connected continuity-wise in some way, shape, or form. Even the 2009 movie and its sequels, which aimed to create a new path for the original series characters (being played by new actors) was still connected by way of old Spock played by Nimoy and the villain time traveling and inadvertently creating the new branching timeline. And most complaints about later series/movie have to do with their impact on things like the overall continuity/canon, as well as the general purpose and tone of Star Trek.

While people will make comparisons either way, your comparison of BTAS to Star Trek TOS was nonsensical to begin with.

My narrative was pretty consistent as a counterpoint to your narrative, which made little sense to start with.

Congrats on failing to make a valid point in the first place. Feel free to respond and continue failing.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Dave Bannion

All downhill after episode 3. Perfect time to bail.

I thought episodes 4 (night of the hunters), 7 (moving target, with onomatopeia) and the finale two parter were some of the standouts of the show along episodes 1,2 and 3.

Anyone who doesn't care about the show a few episodes in, fine, but someone on the fence about it should definitely check the whole season out.

I loved the return to episodic story telling, but with a few threads throughout the season that come to a close in the season finale.

[MegatronX]

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

[drb999]

I remember no one making a big deal out of it.

[BudBaxter]

Originally Posted by MegatronX

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

The latter part certainly bothered Billy Dee Williams.

[Batmon77]

Originally Posted by MegatronX

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

My friends and I were hoping Billy Dee would get to be evil in one of the sequels. Ive never seen him play a villain. They didn’t give enough screentime for folks to really invest. But no there was no extensive dialog with a Dent’s swap.
I recall folks talking about Joker killing the Waynes as being a hot point amongst traditionalists.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by MegatronX

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

Originally Posted by drb999

I remember no one making a big deal out of it.

A lot of people didn't even know who the character was. He was prominent in the comics. But for the wider public who mainly knew Batman through other media, he never appeared on the Adam West live action series, or any cartoons, etc. up to that point when the movie came out.

While Billy Dee Williams was a very well known actor, the general public had no real context for the history or significance of the character that he was playing. And other than being played by a recognizable actor, the Harvey Dent doesn't really do much in the movie and otherwise doesn't make much of an impression as a character.

The first significant on-screen portrayal of the character was in BTAS, in which the audience gets to know the Harvey Dent character before transitioning to Two-Face.

And then when Batman Forever came out, some likely had context from BTAS. But those who didn't got it from the little flash back news clip of his origin. They mention the name Harvey Dent, but the full name (especially the Dent part) is not repeated constantly throughout the movie. So it is easy for many to not even realize it was even supposed to be the same character that Billy Dee Williams played in the '89 film. They likely didn't even remember the name of the character Bill Dee played.

If anything, a lot of people probably eventually put 2 and 2 together upon rewatching the '89 film after becoming familiar with the character through other media, such as BTAS and even later, The Dark Knight (the Nolan film). It is possible that some (who didn't watch BTAS) put it together from watching Batman Forever and then watching the '89 movie, but again, since the full name isn't repeated a lot in the movie, I can still see it being something that continued to go over at least a decent amount of people's heads until when and if they ever became familiar with the character in other media.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by BudBaxter

The latter part certainly bothered Billy Dee Williams.

Did it? Billy Dee Williams had a pay-or-play contract

[steve_dave]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Did it? Billy Dee Williams had a pay-or-play contract

It does not matter to Williams, he wanted the role and expected it regardless of the pay or play contract. He still is annoyed by the snub to this day.

Meanwhile Marlon Wayons does not care and appreciates his pay or play contract that nets him a nice check for doing nothing.

[Lutz]

That scene where Bruce and Selina are looking at Martha Wayne’s pearls in a cabinet I couldn’t help but whisper “Holly Hunter”.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by steve_dave

Meanwhile Marlon Wayons does not care and appreciates his pay or play contract that nets him a nice check for doing nothing.

I think Marlon Wayans had a lot more going on back then

[ravenus]

Originally Posted by MegatronX

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

BDW took the small part in the first film expecting to play Two-Face in a sequel. But by 1995, post-Fugitive Tommy Lee Jones was hot on the market, and Williams was paid off. It's not so much a B&W thing, as the actor's perceived market value. They might have perhaps been more open to Eddie Murphie playing Two-Face...and he might have made a better pairing with Jim Carrey's Riddler. Apparently during the shoot TLJ was constantly frustrated by Carrey's ad-libbing.

[matirocker]

I think it's very ironic that people criticize this version of Penguin saying that "it changes who the character is", "it's not the Penguin if its a woman" etc, etc, yet praise Matt Reeves' Penguin when that version barely has any resemblence to the original character. Now more than ever that they're not even keeping Oswald's original name.

Dressing, top hat, monocle, umbrella with weapons. One of the two has them all and the other has none. Which one was was criticized for not being "true" to the character? Ironic...

[BluGalaxy]

Originally Posted by MegatronX

I have to ask...did it bother people at the time when Harvey Dent was black in the Tim Burton BATMAN...or for that matter that he was white again by BATMAN FOREVER?

I did in the sense we never got to see Billy dee Williams take on him, it would have been very interesting, and he's a good actor

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I think it's very ironic that people criticize this version of Penguin saying that "it changes who the character is", "it's not the Penguin if its a woman" etc, etc, yet praise Matt Reeves' Penguin when that version barely has any resemblence to the original character. Now more than ever that they're not even keeping Oswald's original name.

They're both shit. Happy? They both piss on the Penguin in different and uniquely annoying ways.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

They're both shit. Happy? They both piss on the Penguin in different and uniquely annoying ways.

I think they're both pretty good takes on Penguin. I just find it unfair that people crap on Caped Crusader's version just because of the gender swap.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I think they're both pretty good takes on Penguin.

I disagree completely

Originally Posted by matirocker

I just find it unfair that people crap on Caped Crusader's version just because of the gender swap.

If people are harder on the Caped Crusader's version it's for two reasons:
1) The gender swap feels like it's only there to check a box
2) The Caped Crusader was created by Bruce Timm. Not some indifferent hack filmmaker. The Bruce Timm. The man who co-created what many consider the definitive version of Batman. The man who is a comic book artist in his own right. One of the fans. The man who many people feel understand these characters and how to interpret them for the screen in ways that mainstream Hollywood just can't seem to figure out.

Also, Timm's justification for it - that Batman has 'few good villains' - even if we take it to mean Batman has few good female villains is just patently absurd. Especially coming from the man who co-created Harley Quinn

[JackForrester]

Barbara Gordon was the worst character in this by a mile. Is the character supposed to be that obnoxious?

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

I disagree completely

Thats fine, to each their own!

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

If people are harder on the Caped Crusader's version it's for two reasons:
1) The gender swap feels like it's only there to check a box
2) The Caped Crusader was created by Bruce Timm. Not some indifferent hack filmmaker. The Bruce Timm. The man who co-created what many consider the definitive version of Batman. The man who is a comic book artist in his own right. One of the fans. The man who many people feel understand these characters and how to interpret them for the screen in ways that mainstream Hollywood just can't seem to figure out.

Also, Timm's justification for it - that Batman has 'few good villains' - even if we take it to mean Batman has few good female villains is just patently absurd. Especially coming from the man who co-created Harley Quinn

My two cents on your 2 reasonings:

Just saying they wanted to check boxes, or trying to be PC or "woke" are just not elaborate enough thoughts and have no basis about them.

Yes, Timm is in part responsable for BTAS, but did they ever nail Penguin? He always had the weakest episodes and they couldn't do anything really interesting with him until the revamped episodes where he had the Iceberg Lounge. And still he never was the main villain of any episode.

For Caped Crusader, they were clearly going for something different than BTAS in many ways, and they came up with this alternate take on the character. I fail to see why is it such a big deal. Every series, movie, comic keeps trying new stuff with characters so I don't see why it's so wrong to do this. It's been done before and no one has cared.

Why do you feel that it's absurd that Batman has few good female villains? (yes, that's what he meant) Can you name femail villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia? If you can, can you really say the other ones are really that good or iconic next to them or villains like Joker, Riddler, Mr Freeze, Two Face, Ra's, Bane, etc? There's probably not a lot of them. I agree that it was unnecesary though. Even if there were many good female villains, trying new versions of existing characters is fair game.

Penguin in Caped Crusader was a perfectly fine written character as far as Im concerned