Batman: Caped Crusader (HBOMax Animated Series) (Abrams and Reeves)

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I think it's very ironic that people criticize this version of Penguin saying that "it changes who the character is", "it's not the Penguin if its a woman" etc, etc, yet praise Matt Reeves' Penguin when that version barely has any resemblence to the original character. Now more than ever that they're not even keeping Oswald's original name.

They're both shit. Happy? They both piss on the Penguin in different and uniquely annoying ways.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

They're both shit. Happy? They both piss on the Penguin in different and uniquely annoying ways.

I think they're both pretty good takes on Penguin. I just find it unfair that people crap on Caped Crusader's version just because of the gender swap.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I think they're both pretty good takes on Penguin.

I disagree completely

Originally Posted by matirocker

I just find it unfair that people crap on Caped Crusader's version just because of the gender swap.

If people are harder on the Caped Crusader's version it's for two reasons:
1) The gender swap feels like it's only there to check a box
2) The Caped Crusader was created by Bruce Timm. Not some indifferent hack filmmaker. The Bruce Timm. The man who co-created what many consider the definitive version of Batman. The man who is a comic book artist in his own right. One of the fans. The man who many people feel understand these characters and how to interpret them for the screen in ways that mainstream Hollywood just can't seem to figure out.

Also, Timm's justification for it - that Batman has 'few good villains' - even if we take it to mean Batman has few good female villains is just patently absurd. Especially coming from the man who co-created Harley Quinn

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

I disagree completely

Thats fine, to each their own!

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

If people are harder on the Caped Crusader's version it's for two reasons:
1) The gender swap feels like it's only there to check a box
2) The Caped Crusader was created by Bruce Timm. Not some indifferent hack filmmaker. The Bruce Timm. The man who co-created what many consider the definitive version of Batman. The man who is a comic book artist in his own right. One of the fans. The man who many people feel understand these characters and how to interpret them for the screen in ways that mainstream Hollywood just can't seem to figure out.

Also, Timm's justification for it - that Batman has 'few good villains' - even if we take it to mean Batman has few good female villains is just patently absurd. Especially coming from the man who co-created Harley Quinn

My two cents on your 2 reasonings:

Just saying they wanted to check boxes, or trying to be PC or "woke" are just not elaborate enough thoughts and have no basis about them.

Yes, Timm is in part responsable for BTAS, but did they ever nail Penguin? He always had the weakest episodes and they couldn't do anything really interesting with him until the revamped episodes where he had the Iceberg Lounge. And still he never was the main villain of any episode.

For Caped Crusader, they were clearly going for something different than BTAS in many ways, and they came up with this alternate take on the character. I fail to see why is it such a big deal. Every series, movie, comic keeps trying new stuff with characters so I don't see why it's so wrong to do this. It's been done before and no one has cared.

Why do you feel that it's absurd that Batman has few good female villains? (yes, that's what he meant) Can you name femail villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia? If you can, can you really say the other ones are really that good or iconic next to them or villains like Joker, Riddler, Mr Freeze, Two Face, Ra's, Bane, etc? There's probably not a lot of them. I agree that it was unnecesary though. Even if there were many good female villains, trying new versions of existing characters is fair game.

Penguin in Caped Crusader was a perfectly fine written character as far as Im concerned

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

have no basis about them

They have every basis. Do you even know what ESG is? Companies get paid to push diversity (and punished if they don't). That's the only reason most of them are doing any of this.

Originally Posted by matirocker

Yes, Timm is in part responsable for BTAS, but did they ever nail Penguin?

Are you trying to tell me that She-Penguin nailed the Penguin either?

Originally Posted by matirocker

It's been done before and no one has cared

I don't think you've really been on the internet that long if you think people don't generally get overheated over creators changing established characters.

People complained about the original Ultimate Spider-Man, for god's sake. One of the best and most popular interpretations of Spider-Man and people trashed it before the first issue even came out because it was a reboot and John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One had already stunk up the place.

Originally Posted by matirocker

Can you name femail villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia?

Lady Shiva, Lady Clayface, Magpie, Nyssa Raatko, Phantasm, Roxy Rocket, Red Claw (all three created by Dini and Timm and Roxy Rocket was very...memorable), Nocturna, White Rabbit, I'm sure there's others.

Even if it was true that there are very few or no great female Batman villains, create one. That's what Dini and Timm did back in the day. For BTAS they created Harley, Roxy Rocket, Phantasm, the Red Claw and a few others. For STAS they created Livewire. For Batman Beyond they created Inque. I'm sure they created interesting female characters for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

This is my problem with both Penguins. They're both exactly what's wrong with modern entertainment. The creators of either have no real interest in actually doing the Penguin and have every interest in cynically using his name and brand recognition to tell stories about two completely different characters, instead of just creating their own characters.

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

They have every basis. Do you even know what ESG is? Companies get paid to push diversity (and punished if they don't). That's the only reason most of them are doing any of this.

First I've heard of this. Interesting.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Are you trying to tell me that She-Penguin nailed the Penguin either?

I'm trying to tell you that Timm never did quite know what to do with Penguin so they tried the genderswap, which brought a lot of fresh ideas for them.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

I don't think you've really been on the internet that long if you think people don't generally get overheated over creators changing established characters.

People complained about the original Ultimate Spider-Man, for god's sake. One of the best and most popular interpretations of Spider-Man and people trashed it before the first issue even came out because it was a reboot and John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One had already stunk up the place.

I've been on the internet long enough to know that people like to complain just to let of their steam out, and, as is the case with the example you provided, are usually on the wrong side. I know it's a cliche example but Heath Ledger as The Joker announcement couldn't have gone worse and we all know how that turned out.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Lady Shiva, Lady Clayface, Magpie, Nyssa Raatko, Phantasm, Roxy Rocket, Red Claw (all three created by Dini and Timm and Roxy Rocket was very...memorable), Nocturna, White Rabbit, I'm sure there's others.

I wasn't clear enough.
Can you name female villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia? If you can, can you really say the other ones are really that good or iconic next to them or villains like Joker, Riddler, Mr Freeze, Two Face, Ra's, Bane, etc? There's probably not a lot of them.
That was meant as 1 big question, not if you can simply name female villains. Out of those villains, I can only say Phantasm can be considered a BIG villain and thats just because of the movie. Not sure if anything else can be done with that character. I've never even heard of some of those and I've been a big Batman fan most of my life (clearly not enough though!)

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Even if it was true that there are very few or no great female Batman villains, create one. That's what Dini and Timm did back in the day. For BTAS they created Harley, Roxy Rocket, Phantasm, the Red Claw and a few others. For STAS they created Livewire. For Batman Beyond they created Inque. I'm sure they created interesting female characters for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

But they wanted to do Penguin. And thought the gender swap would work great and it sparked a lot of ideas for them. Can hardly blame them for that. Dini and Timm also gender swaped Calendar Man into Calendar Girl "back in the day" and nobody seemed to mind or demand they create new characters instead.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

This is my problem with both Penguins. They're both exactly what's wrong with modern entertainment. The creators of either have no real interest in actually doing the Penguin and have every interest in cynically using his name and brand recognition to tell stories about two completely different characters, instead of just creating their own characters.

A fair take. Exactly what's been happening with "The Batman", "Joker" and "The Penguin". I'd still argue Penguin is still pretty much classic Penguin in Caped Crusader only with the gender swap twist. But even so, it's only natural to keep trying new things. You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character. Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

[Batmon77]

Originally Posted by matirocker

A fair take. Exactly what's been happening with "The Batman", "Joker" and "The Penguin". I'd still argue Penguin is still pretty much classic Penguin in Caped Crusader only with the gender swap twist. But even so, it's only natural to keep trying new things. You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character. Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

This.

The bird-man Pengy from Batman Returns is NOT the traditional Ozwald.
But I gibe them props for sustaining his blue-blood origins, which is a character element thats been erased from Gotham and The Penguin.

Even Arkham Asylum had a Cobblepot Library in Gotham, that shows his family money, and probably was in cahoots with the Wayne money in Gotham's past.

[Zechs Merquise]

Originally Posted by matirocker

I've never even heard of some of those and I've been a big Batman fan most of my life (clearly not enough though!)

Well then, clearly an opportunity to bring lesser known villains to the spotlight

Originally Posted by matirocker

Dini and Timm also gender swaped Calendar Man into Calendar Girl "back in the day" and nobody seemed to mind or demand they create new characters instead.

Because first of all Calendar Man is a C-list Batman villain probably best known for being in The Long Halloween (and its sequels). Not one of Batman's signature villains

Secondly Calendar Girl isn't a 1:1 gender swap. She has a completely different name and backstory and only really utilises the same calendar gimmick. She isn't 'Julianna Day' and isn't basically Calendar Man in drag. In fact I might even go so far as to say that Calendar Girl is essentially a new character, just based on the original Calendar Man

Originally Posted by matirocker

You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character.

Yes, and the problem with the Burton Batman films (and Timm's problem with them, because he got to read the script for Batman Returns) is that Burton wasn't really interested in doing the comics, either. He wanted the imagery and the iconography of Batman but he wasn't really interested in making Batman films, he was interested in making Tim Burton films.

Yes, you're correct that this isn't a new problem, but it's a lot more prevalent now because Hollywood are increasingly less willing to take a gamble on original properties, so they're strip mining established names and established franchises for content while being cynical about them and not really doing comics.

See, I never really understood the nostalgia for the Adam West Batman show until now. Because, if you look at that show, they're basically making fun of Batman, of Batman comics. The creators are basically saying 'look at how silly all of this stuff is'.

But, at the same time, the Adam West show was remarkably faithful to the 'New Look' Batman comics of the time. Yes, they're saying 'look at how silly this stuff is' but, at the same time, they weren't afraid to do comics and present Batman, as he was, on the silver screen, in all his glory.

But we don't get that now. Instead we get stuff like 'Gotham' or 'The Penguin', or even 'The Dark Knight', which are just thinly veiled crime dramas with Batman elements in them for the brand recognition

Originally Posted by matirocker

Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.

But BTAS' doing their spin on Mr Freeze wasn't really chopping and changing anything. Firstly, Mr Freeze didn't really have a backstory until BTAS came along. He was another C-list Batman villain (in fact, I think he was supposed to be dead in the comics at the time). Secondly BTAS didn't change anything that was established about Mr Freeze at all. He was always a scientist, who always needed a cryogenic suit after an accident and he always committed ice or cold themed crimes. BTAS changed none of that, they just fleshed him out, and in doing that they made him into one of Batman's signature villains