Batman: Caped Crusader (HBOMax Animated Series) (Abrams and Reeves)

[matirocker]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

They have every basis. Do you even know what ESG is? Companies get paid to push diversity (and punished if they don't). That's the only reason most of them are doing any of this.

First I've heard of this. Interesting.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Are you trying to tell me that She-Penguin nailed the Penguin either?

I'm trying to tell you that Timm never did quite know what to do with Penguin so they tried the genderswap, which brought a lot of fresh ideas for them.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

I don't think you've really been on the internet that long if you think people don't generally get overheated over creators changing established characters.

People complained about the original Ultimate Spider-Man, for god's sake. One of the best and most popular interpretations of Spider-Man and people trashed it before the first issue even came out because it was a reboot and John Byrne's Spider-Man: Chapter One had already stunk up the place.

I've been on the internet long enough to know that people like to complain just to let of their steam out, and, as is the case with the example you provided, are usually on the wrong side. I know it's a cliche example but Heath Ledger as The Joker announcement couldn't have gone worse and we all know how that turned out.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Lady Shiva, Lady Clayface, Magpie, Nyssa Raatko, Phantasm, Roxy Rocket, Red Claw (all three created by Dini and Timm and Roxy Rocket was very...memorable), Nocturna, White Rabbit, I'm sure there's others.

I wasn't clear enough.
Can you name female villains besides Catwoman, Harley, Poison Ivy and Talia? If you can, can you really say the other ones are really that good or iconic next to them or villains like Joker, Riddler, Mr Freeze, Two Face, Ra's, Bane, etc? There's probably not a lot of them.
That was meant as 1 big question, not if you can simply name female villains. Out of those villains, I can only say Phantasm can be considered a BIG villain and thats just because of the movie. Not sure if anything else can be done with that character. I've never even heard of some of those and I've been a big Batman fan most of my life (clearly not enough though!)

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Even if it was true that there are very few or no great female Batman villains, create one. That's what Dini and Timm did back in the day. For BTAS they created Harley, Roxy Rocket, Phantasm, the Red Claw and a few others. For STAS they created Livewire. For Batman Beyond they created Inque. I'm sure they created interesting female characters for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited.

But they wanted to do Penguin. And thought the gender swap would work great and it sparked a lot of ideas for them. Can hardly blame them for that. Dini and Timm also gender swaped Calendar Man into Calendar Girl "back in the day" and nobody seemed to mind or demand they create new characters instead.

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

This is my problem with both Penguins. They're both exactly what's wrong with modern entertainment. The creators of either have no real interest in actually doing the Penguin and have every interest in cynically using his name and brand recognition to tell stories about two completely different characters, instead of just creating their own characters.

A fair take. Exactly what's been happening with "The Batman", "Joker" and "The Penguin". I'd still argue Penguin is still pretty much classic Penguin in Caped Crusader only with the gender swap twist. But even so, it's only natural to keep trying new things. You say this is a modern problem yet Tim Burton's Penguin was also a radical reimagening of the character. Same as BTAS' take on Mr Freeze and MANY other villains. They didn't just do the characters as they were, they put their own spin on it. It's what keeps it all fresh, for better or worse.