The following Sharp displays have been added to the list
One nice feature that I like on the Sharp LCD flat screens is the automatic 1080P/24 feature. On most other brands of flat panels consumers need to mess around inside the menu to adjust the Motion features to the optimal setting. With the Sharp displays that have "Fine Motion Enhanced" feature the display will always properly display 1080P/24 signals at 96HZ regardless of the menu settings. This is a very nice consumer friendly feature. Just connect a BLU-RAY player with 1080P/24 output mode and the Sharp display always does a correct 4:4 pulldown regardless of the menu setting.
When a 60HZ signal is received on a Sharp display that has the "Fine Motion Enhanced" feature the images are displayed at 120HZ.
There are a now several reviews on Sharp models that have "Fine Motion Enhanced".
Here is a quote from one review that mentions how the Sharp displays handle 1080P/24 signals:
" As I started to watch some Blu-ray movies, I was astonished to discover that the Fine Motion Enhanced frame-interpolation control was "grayed out" in the menu and completely unavailable. According to Sharp, if the set gets 1080p/24—which I was sending—it displays the image at 96Hz (each frame is displayed four times), not 120Hz, which is unique in my experience. Apparently, this is a holdover from the 60Hz models that displayed 1080p/24 at 48Hz. Frame interpolation only works if the set receives a 60Hz signal." http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/sharp_lc-52d85u_lcd_tv/index3.html
There are now a total of 5 lists of 1080P/24 displays:
1. List 1 of 5 contains all the current in production Front Projectors and Plasma Screens that handle 1080P/24 correctly.
2. List 2 of 5 contains all the different versions of LCD screens with LED backlighting that handle 1080P/24 correctly and that are currently in production.
3. List 3 of 5 contains all the Standard LCD screens that handles 1080P/24 correctly and that are currently in production.
4. List 4 of 5 contains all the discontinued 1080P/24 display technologies accept for standard LCD screens.
5. List 5 of 5 contains all the discontinued 1080P/24 Standard LCD screens.
List 2 of 5 now contains 3 different LED backlight technologies
(The average consumer will be very confused now with 3 diffrent LED technologies on the market):
LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting (flat panel) : So far historically the best picture quality of the 3. But that could always change over time. Allows backlight to dim or turn off LED's along the entire screen for pure color and deep blacks. Great Plasma alternative.
LCD with LED backlighting (without Local Dimming) (flat panel): LED backlights without local dimming that are arranged behind the screen instead of edge.
LCD with Edge-lit LED backlighting (flat panel) : LED's are arranged around the Edge of the screen. So far there has been screen uniformity issues and the blacks are not as deep. But displays are ultra thin at 1.2 inches or smaller. Also less power used with this design in general.
Click on the following link for a August 28th article from CNET regarding the 3 different technologies:
There are now a total of 4 NuVision LCD flat panels on the list. The latest one to be added is a 65 inch LCD flat panel. All 4 NuVision LCD flat panels display 1080P/24 signals at 120HZ using the 5:5 pulldown method. The 4 FX5 series displays on the list are backed by a 2 year parts and labor warranty.
According to the manuals all 4 displays also support 576i and 576P signals at 50HZ using the HDMI and componet connections. According to the manuals all 4 FX5 series displays support PAL input on the S-Video and composite inputs.
Here is some more info on the true 1080P/24 method used by Nuvision
VIZIO use to be known as a low end brand. In just over a year VIZIO has really improved the quality of their displays. VIZIO no longer makes 60HZ Plasma displays but before they stopped making the plasmas there was a professional review published that claimed the 60HZ VIZIO plasma screens had 80% of the picture quality of a Pioneer plasma screen (reference link to plasma comment). Now the latest face off between a $900 VIZIO 120HZ LCD model and a $1,300 Toshiba 120HZ LCD model has resulted in proof that VIZIO LCD screens can beat other companies not only on price but also on overall picture quality. VIZIO did not have as good as picture quality when compared to the 120HZ LG 42LH40 LCD and Sony BRAVIA 40V5100 LCD models.
The 42 inch VIZIO SV420M has a overall better picture quality compared to the 42 inch Toshiba REGZA 42ZV650U according to the September 2009 Home Theater face off (pages 20-36). The VIZIO beat the Toshiba in Black level, Shadow detail, and resolution. The Toshiba REGZA 42XV650U costs $1,300. The VIZIO SV420M is a better value at $900.
Here are a few select quotes from the September 2009 Home Theater review face off (pages 20-36)
"Coming from nowhere just a few years ago, this relatively new television manufacturer has managed to muscle its way into the ranks of the market leaders by selling its sets largely through major discount warehouse retailers like Costco."
"As with all the LCD sets here, the Vizio operates at a refresh rate of 120 Hz. And as such, it offers its own aptly named motion-smoothing feature: Smooth Motion. It has two separate adjustments: Smooth Mode Effect and Real Cinema. If the set receives a 1080p/24 input with the Smooth Mode Effect control off, it repeats each frame four times (5:5 pulldown) in order to reach the displayed 120-Hz refresh rate. With Smooth Motion Effect on (in any of its three active modes—Low, Middle, or High) and the Real Cinema control set to Smooth, the set also adds four new frames for each real one. In this case, the frames are interpolated. Oddly, if Smooth Motion is on and the Real Cinema control is set to Precision, the Vizio first converts 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 and interpolates a single added frame to reach 120 Hz."
"With a 1080p/60 input (or a lower-resolution input upconverted by the set to 1080p/60) and Smooth Motion turned off, the Vizio adds a single repeated frame to each real frame to reach 120 Hz. With Smooth Motion on, it interpolates a single added frame."
A few quotes from the review that are mostly negative
"When the Vizio plays back a 4:3 source in the 4:3 (Normal) aspect ratio setting or a letterboxed source that needs to be played in a zoom setting to fill the full width of the screen, the set can only produce a geometrically correct image when the input is 480i or 480p. When 720p, 1080i, and 1080p inputs are externally upconverted to these resolutions from standard-definition sources, they are squeezed or stretched, and no aspect ratio choice can put them right. (This is not a problem with sources that require a Full setting, such as native HD material and enhanced-for-widescreen DVDs.)"
"Three of the panelists saw deterioration in the set’s image quality when they moved off axis. But on the positive side, others noted that the set looked much better overall with the room lights on."
"Three of them thought the skintones looked a little unnatural, and one of those commented that the colors were too vibrant. Another rated the Vizio’s reds as the worst of the group and the greens as the second worst. While the set finished last in the composite scores for color, two of the panelists rated it highly, giving it a 9 out of 10, while others were much less enthusiastic. This shows just how personal the reaction to color can be. Even with careful calibrations, there can be underlying differences in sets that the available controls can’t completely dial out."
"While the Vizio didn’t turn in a great performance overall, remember that it is less than 75 percent of the cost of the next least expensive set in the group. I found it much more watchable than the group’s scores might suggest, and its HD video processing also handily beat out the other players in the group."
"You can do better if you’re willing to spend more, but this is a respectable set at an attractive price. And Vizio is on the cusp of interesting new models, some of which may well compete more aggressively with the other sets here in the $1,300-to-$1,500 range. It’s also about to join the parade of new local-dimming, LED-backlit sets, which should answer the black level and shadow detail issues, but at a price that might keep other manufacturers awake at night."
Click on link below to read the entire VIZIO review at the Home Theater magazine website:
There are two different menu options for 120HZ Toshiba owners to use to get 5:5 pulldown mode turned on
The Toshiba 5:5 pull down comments in prior professional reviews from CNET and Sound and Vision magazine always mentioned that to turn on the 5:5 pulldown feature on the 120HZ Toshiba's one had to set the Film Stabilization feature to the Standard mode. There are two different ways in the menu to turn on 5:5 pulldown in Toshiba 120HZ models and the simulated 240HZ Toshiba models.
Method number 1 for 5:5 pulldown (quote 1):
Quote from CNET
"The other setting is called "Film Stabilization" and it has three choices: Off, Standard, and Smooth--all three deliver identical motion resolution numbers. The difference between Off and Standard will be difficult for most viewers to discern, since neither engages that obvious smoothing effect produced by, for example, the Standard setting on the Sony and Samsung. On the Toshiba, Standard doesn't introduce dejudder; it simply allows the TV to preserve the proper cadence of 24-frame sources, namely Blu-rays with the player set to 1080p/24 output mode. In such a setup, the ZV650U series' Standard setting worked well to keep the cadence intact, removing the hitching motion seen on the Panasonic plasma, for example, as the camera flies over the deck of the Intrepid during "I Am Legend."
There is also a second way to turn on the Toshiba 5:5 pulldown feature according to Home Theater magazine. The ClearScan feature can be turned off completely to turn on 5:5 pulldown:
Method number 2 for 5:5 pulldown (quote):
"The Toshiba can accept 1080p/24 program material. With ClearScan 240 off and a 1080p/24 input, it repeats each real frame four additional times to reach the set’s 120-Hz refresh rate (5:5 pulldown). With ClearScan 240 on (and the Film Stabilization control on Smooth), some of the added frames are interpolated. In either case, the blinking of the scanning backlight creates the effect of two frames for each actual frame, approximating 240-Hz operation. With a 1080p/60 source (or any source that the set upconverts to its native 1080p resolution), a single frame (repeated or interpolated, as determined by the control settings above) is added for each real frame. http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/toshiba_regza_42zv650u_lcd_hdtv/
Five low cost $1,500 and under 1080P Flat Panels Face off HEAD TO HEAD
(September 2009 Home Theater Magazine pages 20-36)
In the September 2009 Home Theater Magazine on pages 20-36 is a very in depth article comparing 5 different brands of low cost HDTV's between $900-$1,500. This very in depth article had a panel of several professional reviewers that rated the 5 different brands of HD displays in terms of black level, shadow detail, color, resolution, value, and the ultimate final score of "OVERALL PERFORMACE".
In the Home Theater face off only 4 out of the 5 TV's were set to disable the 3:2 pulldown process since the 5th TV had a lot less brightness and a noticeable flicker issue when trying to display 1080P/24 material at multiplies of the original frame rate.
The 4 best TV's tested with the true 1080P/24 refresh rate feature turned on is the following displays:
1. Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD (Best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,500
2. LG 42LH40 LCD (Second best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,400
3. VIZIO SV420M LCD (Third best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $900
4. Toshiba 42ZV650U LCD (Fourth best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,300
Official Home Theater Face off Results when the Panasonic Plasma is viewed at 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown
1. Panasonic TC-P42G10 Plasma (Best picture quality overall, but only 60HZ viewing mode could be used with 3:2 pulldown during the face off) $1,300
2. Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD (Second best performing TV with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,500
3. LG 42LH40 LCD (Third best performing TV with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,400
4. VIZIO SV420M LCD (Fourth best performing TV with true 5:5 pulldown) $900
5. Toshiba 42ZV650U (Fifth best performing TV with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,300
During the face off according to the Home Theater magazine review the Panasonic TC-P42G10 Plasma had a noticeable flicker that was so annoying to watch at 48HZ that the Panasonic display needed to be placed in the 60HZ 3:2 pulldown mode for all viewing and testing during the face off. Also the 48HZ mode greatly reduced the output brightness so it needed to be turned off to be more comparable to the brighter LCD displays. Even though the Panasonic 48HZ mode could not be used for this face off, overall the Panasonic produced the best overall picture quality even at 60HZ since it was the winner of the face off. The Sony KDL-40V5100 was a close second. The advantage of the plasma off angle viewing, color quality, and resolution pulled the Panasonic ahead in points enough to win the face off. The Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD beat the Panasonic in terms of deeper black levels. The amazing thing is that this Sony display is a standard LCD screen without Local Dimming LED backlighting. The picture quality gap between LCD and plasma is closing a lot faster with Pioneer now out of the picture. This Sony standard LCD display beat the Panasonic plasma in the area of black levels. Panasonic needs to start improving on their plasma technology since possible LCD's with LED backlighting might win a future face off. Back in Feb 2009 the Sony KDL-55XBR8 outperformed the Panasonic TH-50PZ800U. If Sony comes out with a new and improved 2009 LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting display it might even beat the picture quality of the Panasonic V10 plasma series. Click here for Feb 2009 Face off results
Personally I do not like watching BLU-RAY's at 60HZ since camera pans add 3:2 pulldown judder to the image and the image looks more like video instead of a natural film quality look. For those that want the picture quality improvements of plasma with flicker free 1080P/24 refresh rates I would strongly recommend the Panasonic TC-P50V10 model that is 100% flicker free at 96HZ. The Panasonic 50 inch V10 list price use to be $2,199.95 but Panasonic just recently reduced it to $2,099.95. When on sale you can find the 50 inch V10 for under $2,000 at Best Buy or mail order companies.
For those consumers that would pefer to spend $1,500 or less on a TV and do not want to watch BLU-RAY's at 60HZ then the Sony KDL-40V5100 mentioned in the face off would be a excellent choice. The Sony 120HZ LCD properly handles 1080P/24 with no flicker issues and it even has deeper blacks when compared to the Panasonic TC-P42G10.
The following are word for word quotes from the September 2009 Home Theater face off written by Thomas J. Norton
"Our last Home Theater Face Off (February 2009) leaned heavily toward larger, high- end sets. The challengers this time around cover the popular 40-to-42-inch (diagonal) range. While they’re hardly cheap, they’re less likely to break the old piggy bank."
"The LCD sets here all use conventional CCFL (fluorescent) backlighting. They also operate at a 120-hertz refresh rate, with optionally selectable frame interpolation. The Toshiba takes this wrinkle a step further with its own variation on 240-Hz operation."
"The five sets were arranged in a row with a gentle arc and camouflaged to conceal the brands and models. The panelists shifted seats and viewing distances frequently during the test to judge various aspects of each set’s performance."
"The smoothing that interpolation provides can make film-based sources look like video, and there are mixed opinions of the process, even here at Home Theater. I switched this feature off during the group test and only demonstrated it to the panel members after they had completed their ratings."
"The set will display sources up to 1080p/60p. For 1080p/24 material, a 24p Direct selection in the menu lets you choose either 48-Hz playback (2 x 24 frames per second, with no 3:2 pulldown) or 60 Hz. In the latter mode, the set converts 24-fps sources to 60p by adding 3:2 pulldown. We used the 60-Hz setting on the Panasonic for this review, as it provided significant added brightness. It needed this to match the brightness of the other sets as closely as possible. It also eliminated an image flicker that’s visible when 24-fps sources are displayed at a 48-Hz refresh rate"
"Others also noted the set’s lack of motion blur, although one panelist felt that the motion was slightly more juddery than the others. This might be traceable to the fact that the Panasonic was running at a frame rate of 60 Hz with 3:2 pulldown, as noted above."
"Excellent blacks and shadow detail"
"Superb off-axis performance"
"The Panasonic was clearly the judges’ favorite, and everyone rated it first or second. It pulled in first-place finishes in the composite scores (including ties for color and shadow detail) in three of the four main performance categories. It finished second only in black level and not by much."
"Everyone on the panel liked the Panasonic’s blacks, although some favored them more than others."
"Only one judge was a bit luke-warm, offering faint praise. “Pretty good black level for this bunch of sets,” he wrote, “but I’d still prefer darker.” No doubt, this was a recovering Pioneer KURO junkie."
"The Panasonic also topped the group in its resolution."
"Conclusions"
"There’s not a lot to say here, since the Panasonic nearly ran away with this Face Off. Only the Sony issued a strong challenge. In the raw scores, the Panasonic grabbed nearly 10 percent more points than the second-place Sony, 28 percent more than the third-place LG, and 43 percent more than the Toshiba. It was also the clear value leader."
"If you don’t need the extra brightness that an LCD can provide and you do most of your serious viewing in a room with subdued lighting, this could be your new flat-panel set."
"As the most expensive entry in the group, as well as the smallest—though not by much in either case—a lot was expected of the Sony."
"The Sony does have a useful lineup of features; some were useful, others not so much. More importantly, its black-level performance and shadow detail surprised almost everyone when I revealed the sets’ identities."
"Sony’s Motionflow is the company’s 120-Hz technology. It worked about as well as any similar feature I’ve seen, although I’m not a fan of this sort of processing, particularly for movies. It does smooth out motion, which some viewers might find useful on sports or other video-based programming."
"The Sony accepts 1080p/24 material and displays it by either repeating each real frame four times to reach the display’s refresh rate of 120 Hz (in other words, 5:5 pulldown). Or, with Motionflow engaged, by inserting four interpolated frames for each real frame. It does the same with 1080p/60 (either a native 1080p/60 at the input or upconverted from 1080i or a lower resolution to 1080p by the set’s internal processing). However, in this case, it inserts a single interpolated frame instead of four to reach the set’s 120-Hz refresh rate."
"In my own time with these sets, the Sony’s black level and natural punch impressed me in a way that I never expected from an LCD without an advanced and expensive technology like LED backlighting with local dimming."
"The judges definitely agreed. “Best black level on axis and best shadow detail of the bunch,” wrote one judge, although he was a bit bothered by the way bright scenes washed out as he moved off axis. He also observed that the Sony had more video noise than the others in dark scenes. But none of this kept him from giving it solid 10 scores for both black level and shadow detail."
"Conclusions"
"The Sony came in a close second in the judging. Two members of the five-judge panel voted it first overall, and two rated it second. No one really disliked it. I can’t say how I might have voted had I been participating blind, but I like to think I would have placed it on top, given my partiality to serious viewing in a darkened room and the resulting need for great black levels. As I noted earlier, the Sony also won raves for its performance with the lights on—although that was a very short part of the test and not included in the scoring."
"This Sony may not have grabbed a victory here, but it’s still a clear winner."
"Korean-based manufacturer LG began as a Lucky Goldstar and evolved into a Life’s Good maker of a wide range of consumer electronics goods. It’s now one of the biggest makers of flat-panel televisions on the planet, if not the biggest."
"As with all the LCD sets here, the LG operates at a refresh rate of 120 Hz. With a 1080p/24 input, if you turn off TruMotion 120Hz (LG’s motion-smoothing, frame interpolation feature), the set performs 5:5 pulldown on the 24-Hz input, adding four repeated frames to reach the display’s refresh rate of 120 Hz. With TruMotion 120Hz turned on, the LG interpolates the added frames."
"With a 1080p/60 input (or a lower-resolution input upconverted by the set to 1080p/60) and TruMotion 120Hz off, the set adds a single repeated frame to each real frame to get to 120 Hz. With TruMotion 120Hz on and an input with 3:2 pulldown, it recognizes the 3:2 cadence, converts the signal to 1080p/24, and then interpolates four new frames for each real one. However, if a source has 2:2 pulldown, it pulls it down to 30p and then interpolates three new frames to reach 120 Hz."
"The LG turned in terrific scores for color (where it finished in a first-place tie with Panasonic) and resolution. It tied for second place in shadow detail, but two sets also tied for first in that category, and the second-place scores were well below the first-place ratings."
"Conclusions"
Altogether, the LG turned in a respectable but not star-making showing. Its strength was in its color, no doubt due to its remarkably flexible calibration controls. Its biggest weaknesses, which it shared with two other sets in the group, were its blacks and shadow detail."
"These problems were not as obvious when I briefly turned on the studio’s overhead fluorescent lights after the formal scoring was over. This means that you’ll be unlikely to see them in a brightly lit showroom. Perhaps not at home, either, if you rarely watch the set with the room lights dimmed—or turned off."
"We’re anxiously waiting to see what LG has in store in its upcoming local-dimming sets. They should greatly improve on these issues (although for a price), giving the company’s accomplishments in other aspects of image quality a chance to shine."
4. VIZIO SV420M ($900): "Coming from nowhere just a few years ago, this relatively new television manufacturer has managed to muscle its way into the ranks of the market leaders by selling its sets largely through major discount warehouse retailers like Costco."
"As with all the LCD sets here, the Vizio operates at a refresh rate of 120 Hz. And as such, it offers its own aptly named motion-smoothing feature: Smooth Motion. It has two separate adjustments: Smooth Mode Effect and Real Cinema. If the set receives a 1080p/24 input with the Smooth Mode Effect control off, it repeats each frame four times (5:5 pulldown) in order to reach the displayed 120-Hz refresh rate. With Smooth Motion Effect on (in any of its three active modes—Low, Middle, or High) and the Real Cinema control set to Smooth, the set also adds four new frames for each real one. In this case, the frames are interpolated. Oddly, if Smooth Motion is on and the Real Cinema control is set to Precision, the Vizio first converts 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 and interpolates a single added frame to reach 120 Hz."
"With a 1080p/60 input (or a lower-resolution input upconverted by the set to 1080p/60) and Smooth Motion turned off, the Vizio adds a single repeated frame to each real frame to reach 120 Hz. With Smooth Motion on, it interpolates a single added frame."
"When the Vizio plays back a 4:3 source in the 4:3 (Normal) aspect ratio setting or a letterboxed source that needs to be played in a zoom setting to fill the full width of the screen, the set can only produce a geometrically correct image when the input is 480i or 480p. When 720p, 1080i, and 1080p inputs are externally upconverted to these resolutions from standard-definition sources, they are squeezed or stretched, and no aspect ratio choice can put them right. (This is not a problem with sources that require a Full setting, such as native HD material and enhanced-for-widescreen DVDs.)"
"The Vizio landed in fourth place overall for black level and shadow detail combined, just marginally behind the LG and in front of the Toshiba. True, the Vizio did tie with the LG for second place in shadow detail. But first place was also a tie, and the spread of the scores between the first tied group of two and the second-place pair was a chasm."
"Three of the panelists saw deterioration in the set’s image quality when they moved off axis. But on the positive side, others noted that the set looked much better overall with the room lights on."
"Conclusions"
"While the Vizio didn’t turn in a great performance overall, remember that it is less than 75 percent of the cost of the next least expensive set in the group. I found it much more watchable than the group’s scores might suggest, and its HD video processing also handily beat out the other players in the group."
"You can do better if you’re willing to spend more, but this is a respectable set at an attractive price. And Vizio is on the cusp of interesting new models, some of which may well compete more aggressively with the other sets here in the $1,300-to-$1,500 range. It’s also about to join the parade of new local-dimming, LED-backlit sets, which should answer the black level and shadow detail issues, but at a price that might keep other manufacturers awake at night."
"How did Toshiba put 240-Hz technology into a $1,300 set? By using a pseudo-240-Hz technique. The set has a native 120-Hz refresh rate, but this is supplemented by a scanning backlight that’s said to achieve some of the benefits of 240 Hz."
"The Toshiba can accept 1080p/24 program material. With ClearScan 240 off and a 1080p/24 input, it repeats each real frame four additional times to reach the set’s 120-Hz refresh rate (5:5 pulldown). With ClearScan 240 on (and the Film Stabilization control on Smooth), some of the added frames are interpolated. In either case, the blinking of the scanning backlight creates the effect of two frames for each actual frame, approximating 240-Hz operation. With a 1080p/60 source (or any source that the set upconverts to its native 1080p resolution), a single frame (repeated or interpolated, as determined by the control settings above) is added for each real frame."
"The Toshiba came in last in both subjective and measured black level, and it also placed last in shadow detail. It did take a solid second place in color (two other sets tied for first), where its extensive color adjustments pulled it through. And its resolution landed it at a near-tie for second place with three other sets."
"But a different panelist thought the Toshiba was the worst of all the sets with the Stargate star field scene. He said he saw very little shadow detail in the deepest blacks on other material. He also thought the image fell to pieces off axis. There was also a negative comment on how the Toshiba (and the Vizio as well) lost all detail on Kong’s fur in King Kong (chapter 48)."
"Conclusions"
"The panel results make it hard to be upbeat about the Toshiba. Still, there appears to be a good set in there trying to get out. It’s hard to fault the overall color quality—or the color adjustments that can help a good calibrator get there. While the set’s resolution only drew middling praise, several of the sets were tightly clustered in their scores for this category. I don’t think any potential buyer will be unhappy with the Toshiba’s color or resolution, particularly on mid-level and bright scenes."
"The black level and shadow detail are another matter. But as with Vizio and LG, Toshiba is now introducing sets that will use LED backlighting with local dimming to improve black level and shadow detail. They should be available by the time you read this. Such sets will not immediately filter down to this price range, but they should still be relatively affordable (at press time, the first Toshiba 46-inch LED local dimmer was priced at $2,300). Hopefully this development will answer our concerns."
Following are select quotes from Shane Buettner Editor
"Sure enough, the Panasonic plasma quickly revealed itself as the set that made every seat the best seat in the house."
"The Sony’s blacks were not only astonishing, they were better than the plasma sitting next to it. Shadow detail favored the Panasonic, and in mixed scenes with strong light and dark areas, the Panasonic showed more punch in the bright areas. But it was still neck and neck. Did someone sneak a local-dimming LCD into the mix? While the plasma still had a better pic- ture off axis, the Sony’s color fidelity was far more natural and consistent, which is entirely inconsistent with my overall experience with LCDs. To top it off, turning on even a little room light killed the plasma, while the Sony still looked awesome. I’m a kook who prioritizes nighttime movie watching, but the Sony had the better blacks with the lights out, too. So my little world was really turned upside down. I’m a plasma guy. I own a plasma. I love my plasma! But this Sony was the best of the bunch."
"Nevertheless, it’s clear that the days of plasma kicking sand in LCD’s face are coming to an end. Plasma has undeniable strengths, but it doesn’t win a Face Off just by showing up anymore."
Following are select quotes from John Higgins, Contributor
" When we have a Face Off that mixes technologies, I always find it interesting to see how they stack up against each other. In the past, the difference between LCDs and plasmas was easily discernible, if only by the black level.
But over the past couple of years, LCDs have come so far in that regard that plasmas don’t stand out as much due to black level—especially with the recent loss of Pioneer’s KUROs."
" The Panasonic had what looked to be the best black level and shadow detail of the group. Still, when the lights were turned on, the image looked washed out, which isn’t totally unexpected from a plasma display. If you’re thinking about it as your display, I recommend that you only use it in a dark room"
Following are select quotes from Claire Lloyd, Executive Editor
"... I knew beforehand that one of the sets in the test was a plasma model. I sat smugly in the Face Off, confident that the Sony’s stunning black level and shadow detail marked it as the plasma lurking in the herd of LCDs. This was the set my eye inevitably wandered back to during the dark demo clips from The Dark Knight and Stargate: The Ark of Truth."
" Naturally, I got the wind knocked out of my sails when Tom revealed the sets’ identities at the end of the day. Since I was in a roomful of video experts, I refrained from blurting out the fact that I’d misidentified the plasma. That’s our secret. The Sony’s black level and shadow detail were remarkable—that’s all there is to it."
" In the color department, the Vizio was my initial favorite. However, after a couple of hours of its candy-coated goodness, I came to appreciate the Sony’s more realistic, natural palette."
" Overall, the Panasonic plasma came in at a very close second on my scorecard, earning just three points less than the Sony. The Panasonic handled motion admirably and had very acceptable color and shadow detail. But its black level dropped substantially when the room lights were on, and that alone was enough to lose it my first-place vote."
Following are select quotes from Debbie Stampfli, Contributor
"My favorite of the bunch was the Panasonic TC-P42G10 plasma. If I could’ve taken this home in the trunk of my car without anybody noticing, I would have. At Home Theater, the buzz is always about the deepest and darkest blacks. This HDTV ran circles around the others with its incredible blacks. A space scene from Stargate: The Ark of Truth made this screen pop. I could see stars in the vast blackness of space that didn’t even exist on any of the other screens. Best of all, the Panasonic didn’t lose any of its picture quality when I changed seating positions."
" My second favorite was slightly more con- troversial. While all the experts in the room seemed to dislike the Vizio VL420M LCD HDTV, I really enjoyed watching it. I have a soft spot for bright, vivid colors, and this one delivered colors that were supernaturally bright. Scenes like the crowd scene in Spider- Man literally came to life on the screen."
" Although the blacks in the Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD HDTV were excellent, the picture faded out dramatically when it was off axis. It was a deal breaker for me."
Following are select quotes from Scott Wilkinson, Contributor
" Two of the sets stood out dramatically, with deeper blacks and much better shadow detail than the other three, making this a Face Off between the Panasonic TC-P42G10 plasma and the Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD."
" Going into this, I knew that there was one plasma in the bunch, which I expected to do well in the black-level department. What surprised me was how well the Sony LCD did in that department. In fact, its blacks looked even a bit deeper than the Panasonic’s. This is amazing since its backlight is a conventional CCFL, not LED with local dimming."
" Even more astonishing, the Sony’s off-axis performance on dark scenes was remarkable.Yes, the apparent black level did rise a bit, but it wasn’t nearly as much as the other LCDs in the Face Off or just about any other LCD I’ve seen. On the other hand, bright scenes were totally washed out when viewed from off axis, which was very strange. Of course, the Panasonic plasma’s off-axis performance beat all the LCDs hands down."
" We did most of our viewing with the lights off, but we turned them on briefly just to see what would happen to the pictures, even though all the sets had been calibrated for a dark environment. All the LCDs, especially the LG, Toshiba, and Vizio, looked a lot better under some room light. The Panasonic plasma looked much worse, with gray blacks and a seriously washed-out image.This was a clear demonstration of why LCDs sell better than plasmas in brightly lit showrooms. Unfortunately, many LCDs that look great at the retailer don’t live up to that promise once you put them in a light-controlled room."
During the face off according to the Home Theater magazine review the Panasonic TC-P42G10 Plasma had a noticeable flicker that was so annoying to watch at 48HZ that the Panasonic display needed to be placed in the 60HZ 3:2 pulldown mode for all viewing and testing during the face off. Also the 48HZ mode greatly reduced the output brightness so it needed to be turned off to be more comparable to the brighter LCD displays. Even though the Panasonic 48HZ mode could not be used for this face off, overall the Panasonic produced the best overall picture quality even at 60HZ since it was the winner of the face off.
I can't seem to find this part in the article, can you show me where they stated this? All I could see was the following comment:
The set will display sources up to 1080p/60p. For 1080p/24 material, a 24p Direct selection in the menu lets you choose either 48-Hz playback (2 x 24 frames per second, with no 3:2 pulldown) or 60 Hz. In the latter mode, the set converts 24-fps sources to 60p by adding 3:2 pulldown. We used the 60-Hz setting on the Panasonic for this review, as it provided significant added brightness. It needed this to match the brightness of the other sets as closely as possible. It also eliminated an image flicker that’s visible when 24-fps sources are displayed at a 48-Hz refresh rate.
Doesn't say anything like what you've interpreted here. Are you perhaps quoting from a different review and amalgamating the two?
Doesn't say anything like what you've interpreted here. Are you perhaps quoting from a different review and amalgamating the two?
I see that Amazon has the Panasonic 48HZ TC-P42G10 for only $978.99 now. That is a great price. I also noticed that Amazon has the 50 inch TC-P50V10 with 96HZ for only $1,631.18. The second place winner in the face off the Sony KDL-40V5100 can be found at Amazon for only $917.97.
The Home Theater review mentions that for the face off the G10 needed to be placed in the 60HZ mode for two reasons. One reason is the brightness is reduced significantly in the 48HZ mode and the second reason a visible image flicker is present at 48HZ. You are correct when I used the words "so annoying", that was from my interpretation and from past reviews that mentioned the G10 was "unwatchable" at 48HZ.
Quote from CNET website on the G10 review
" The company also includes a "24p direct in" setting that's available when the TV detects a 1080p/24 source, typically from a Blu-ray Disc. As with the PZ800U and 850U models from last year, choosing the "48Hz" setting, as opposed to the standard 60Hz setting, causes the display to refresh at 48Hz to match the 24fps cadence of film. And as with last year's sets, selecting 48Hz on the G10 causes flicker--more intense in brighter areas, but visible pretty much constantly--that basically renders the image unwatchable.We don't expect any of the videophiles toward whom this setting is aimed to stand for the flicker, so we kept the G10 set to 60Hz. It's worth noting that the step-up V10 series refreshes at 96Hz, according to Panasonic, so the flicker shouldn't be a problem on those sets."
" The TCP50G1 accepts 1080p/24 signals that may be displayed at 48Hz or 60 Hz. Like last year’s TH50PZ850 reviewed here, the 48 Hz rate suffers from image flicker and is deemed unwatchable. Use the 60 Hz mode."
Quote
"For 1080p/24 material, the 24p Direct In option lets you select either 24 fps (displayed at 48 fps) or 60 fps (with 3:2 pulldown added). For me, 48 fps wasn’t fast enough to eliminate visible flicker on some program material. Because of this, I used the 60-Hz setting for most of the review, even with 1080p/24 sources."
Quote from page 68 of Sound and Vision magazine June/July/August 2009 issue
"As with the Panasonic Z800-series TV that I tested last year (the TH-50PZ800U; review available online), the 46G10's image showed an objectionable degree of flicker when I engaged its 48-Hz display setting (a mode designed to reduce judder with Blu-ray Disc movies when the player's 1080p/24-format output is active). Plenty of other HDTVs can display Blu-ray content at multiplies of the formats native 1080p/24 frame rate with no problem, so it's too bad Panasonic didn't correct that issue this time out."
You are correct when I used the words "so annoying", that was from my interpretation
That's what I thought, because this "unwatchable" phenomenon doesn't seem to occur in the real world to current owners. That much never seems to get noted.
In the September 2009 Home Theater Magazine on pages 20-36 is a very in depth article comparing 5 different brands of low cost HDTV's between $900-$1,500. This very in depth article had a panel of several professional reviewers that rated the 5 different brands of HD displays in terms of black level, shadow detail, color, resolution, value, and the ultimate final score of "OVERALL PERFORMACE".
In the Home Theater face off only 4 out of the 5 TV's were set to disable the 3:2 pulldown process since the 5th TV had a lot less brightness and a noticeable flicker issue when trying to display 1080P/24 material at multiplies of the original frame rate.
The 4 best TV's tested with the true 1080P/24 refresh rate feature turned on is the following displays:
1. Sony KDL-40V5100 LCD (Best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,500
2. LG 42LH40 LCD (Second best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,400
3. VIZIO SV420M LCD (Third best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $900
4. Toshiba 42ZV650U LCD (Fourth best performing LCD with true 5:5 pulldown) $1,300
I can't seem to find in the article where they show the results of testing these tv's in a 24Hz mode. I've looked and looked. You're clearly representing these "results" as being part of the Home Theatre Mag article, so where exactly in the article is this from? I can't find it.
I can't seem to find in the article where they show the results of testing these tv's in a 24Hz mode. I've looked and looked. You're clearly representing these "results" as being part of the Home Theatre Mag article, so where exactly in the article is this from? I can't find it.
All 4 LCD screens tested were tested in the 5:5 pulldown mode since in the following quote it says he switched off the motion feature control. Doing so turns on the repeating frame method without interpolation of new frames.
"The smoothing that interpolation provides can make film-based sources look like video, and there are mixed opinions of the process, even here at Home Theater. I switched this feature off during the group test and only demonstrated it to the panel members after they had completed their ratings."
"All of the program material for the group tests was high definition, on Blu-ray Disc. I showed short clips from each of the following discs: Seven Years in Tibet, The Dark Knight, Casanova, Fly Away Home, Spider-Man, Stargate: The Ark of Truth, King Kong (2005), Mission: Impossible III, and a video-sourced excerpt from a Panasonic Viera demo disc. The selections included a roughly equal mix of bright and dark scenes. The first five of these discs were 1080p/24 and played at that rate."
I can't seem to find in the article where they show the results of testing these tv's in a 24Hz mode. I've looked and looked. You're clearly representing these "results" as being part of the Home Theatre Mag article, so where exactly in the article is this from? I can't find it.
This is the OP's ratings based on the fact that the G10 does not handle 24p very well at 48Hz (according to the article). Seems like he wants to promote the LCDs even though the G10 was the undisputed shoot-out winner. Now, you want to compare 24p, put the sets up against a V10 with 96Hz. There'd be no "manipulation" of the results with that.
Now, you want to compare 24p, put the sets up against a V10 with 96Hz.
The OP doesn't test the displays himself obviously, but merely reads many reviews and shares his opinions (funded with some quotes) and interpretations with the rest of us enthousiasts. I hear what you say, but we are old enough to make our own opinions and interpretations, just like you and the OP.
More important (to me, at least), he puts a lot of time and effort in compiling (and updating) the lists in the first few posts, which is of great value to many of us around here, because AFAIK they are the only (updated) lists about 24fps HD-displays existing!
More important (to me, at least), he puts a lot of time and effort in compiling (and updating) the lists in the first few posts, which is of great value to many of us around here, because AFAIK they are the only (updated) lists about 24fps HD-displays existing!
It's a great list to have for sure, but it's important to keep in mind that even pulldown compatability should be quite far down the list of important statistics when looking for a television like color accuracy, motion resolution, ANSI contrast, etc.
When you start dismissing the performance of other sets, or appearing to, in lieu of promotion just 24Hz capability, that is foolish and consumers and posters should be informed of as much.
I'm a little stunned that the Benq W5000 (which I have) still hasn't been added to the list of front projectors after all this time!
I thought it was well known that with a 24p signal, it refreshes at 48Hz.
Has this not been verified?
It is extremely difficult to find out how 1080P/24 is handled on some brands and models of projectors. I did some research and found one review that mentions that the Benq W5000 projector accepts a 1080P/24 signal. Then I found another review that mentions the Benq W5000 projector bypasses the 3:2 pulldown process when it inputs 1080P/24 but then it does not list the refresh rate of the projector. The spec sheets for the W5000 list a horizontal frequency of 15-75HZ. So the Benq W5000 might refresh 1080p/24 at 48HZ or 72Hz but it is not clear from any written documentation.
I would like to get the BENQ W5000, W20000, and new W6000 Front Projectors added to the list if there was some documented information that mentioned the refresh rate for 1080p/24 signals in either a professional review, spec sheet, instruction manual, or a email from BENQ corporation.
Quote
"The W5000 and Cinema 1080 UB share some common features. Both are compatible with 1080p/24, although that did not show up in the W5000's published specs." http://www.projectorcentral.com/benq_w5000.htm
On a side note: I have always mentioned several times in this thread that picture quality issues like resolution, black levels, shadow detail, and color accuracy are more important issues then having true 1080p/24 refresh rates. At the same time the best higher-end displays always offer true 1080p/24 refresh rates as a standard feature. Also this 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame rate feature is becoming so common and mainstream that it can be found on low cost value priced 120HZ LCD flat screens from VIZIO now. Several will known professional videophiles have mentioned that the 1080p/24 feature is a important feature to have. Here is a quote from one professional videophile mentioning the 1080p/24 feature when the JVC RS20 was reviewed in the Widescrreen Review magazine:
Quote
"The RS20 accepts the 1080p/24 signals through its HDMI inputs and displays them at an integer multiple of the 24Hz frame rate.I believe this is so important to reproducing the look of film that I wouldn't consider purchasing a front projector or a video processor without those capabilities." https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=2093142&postcount=775
JVC DLA-HD750 Front Projector (September 2009 Sound and Vision review)
This is one of the original JVC reviews I quoted from back in August in this thread. The review just became available online. Like all other JVC Front Projectors the DLA-HD750 will properly display 1080p/24 signals at 96HZ. 60HZ signals are refreshed at 120HZ.
** Info regarding the web links on the 1080P/24 list **
As most people are already aware the list is located at the very beginning of this thread. When the weblink is clicked on a review for each model will most of the time take a person to the official professional review written for that exact model or series of display. When a professional review is not available that mentions how the 1080P/24 feature works the link will usually take a person to the manufactories official PDF spec sheet or other location that mentions how the 1080P/24 process works.
Problems with discontinued displays on the list
Over time every display every made ends up one day on the discontinued list. The problem is as more time passes older models on the list sometimes no longer have working weblinks. If the link changes I just update the link and point it in the correct area. The problem is I have been noticing more and more magazines either going out of business or pulling their old reviews from the their website. Also some companies after a while remove spec sheets from the web. My main point is the displays on the discontinued list use to work when clicking them on, but now the reviews and spec sheets for some models have been removed completely from the Internet. I have no control over this. So for the links that do not work in the discontinued section you will need to search the thread for quotes that mention how the 1080p/24 process works and how good the display performed in the year it was made.
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