The Legend of Fong Sai Yuk 1 & 2 (Deluxe Limited Edition) 88 Films

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Eibon

omg, I wasn't prepared for the incomprehensible subtitles and continuous expletives. Was it subtitled by a juvenile amateur with an AI app?

It was me.

One of the plot points involves poetry which was nicely translated before but rendered meaningless gibberish here.

Less elegant, I'll grant you. But that's because I take less license than most translators. Cantonese dialogue isn't typically poetic in nature. Perhaps I should've finessed it a bit.

And did officials exchanging formal platitudes really sprinkle their lobbying with "f"s and "mf"s?

That's what's in the script. For what it's worth Tiger Lei is supposed to be crude, his language out of place in proper society.

I'm done with Arrow and 88 films HK fare until they hire paid professionals or offer multiple sub tracks including legacy ones.

I'm not responsible for any of Arrow's subs. Phew!

Maybe I'm being overly critical but it really ruined the experience for me. Is it just me?

Ruined seems a bit much, no? But opinions vary.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by filmlover22

Will the subtitles on the forthcoming Shout version be different?

Apparently. Perhaps they'll be more to your liking.

[filmlover22]

Originally Posted by Markgway

Apparently. Perhaps they'll be more to your liking.

Well, I don't have any version so I really can't complain. Just reacting to the posts in this thread. Not knowing the original language, it is difficult for me to adequately judge if the subtitles are being a fair translation or not. Obviously, I want the best, but based on my ignorance, I am not always sure what that means!

[Eibon]

Originally Posted by Markgway

It was me.



Less elegant, I'll grant you. But that's because I take less license than most translators. Cantonese dialogue isn't typically poetic in nature. Perhaps I should've finessed it a bit.



That's what's in the script. For what it's worth Tiger Lei is supposed to be crude, his language out of place in proper society.



I'm not responsible for any of Arrow's subs. Phew!



Ruined seems a bit much, no? But opinions vary.

Translation is not about swapping words, it's about conveying meaning. This is why there are literary competitions that recognise and award prizes to translators as well as authors. Any chatbot can substitute words for equivalents.

In this case the poetry is meaningless, made worse because it's repeated in two other emotional scenes. I have no idea what knitted eyebrows are. And, now it sounds like she's contemplating a hate-filled massacre.

Finally, thanks for pointing out I named "Arrow" in my post, of course I meant "Eureka". With apologies to Arrow, I've corrected my original post.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Eibon

Translation is not about swapping words, it's about conveying meaning. This is why there are literary competitions that recognise and award prizes to translators as well as authors. Any chatbot can substitute words for equivalents.

In this case the poetry is meaningless, made worse because it's repeated in two other emotional scenes. I have no idea what knitted eyebrows are. And, now it sounds like she's contemplating a hate-filled massacre.

Finally, thanks for pointing out I named "Arrow" in my post, of course I meant "Eureka". With apologies to Arrow, I've corrected my original post.

Rest assured your points will be taken on board.

[TheRingshifter]

Originally Posted by Eibon

In this case the poetry is meaningless, made worse because it's repeated in two other emotional scenes. I have no idea what knitted eyebrows are. And, now it sounds like she's contemplating a hate-filled massacre.

Honestly, just wanna get my take in... until this comment I had no idea which of the two translations was supposed to be the "bad" one. I still don't really understand what the complaint is lol, except that "knitted brows" is too obscure which... I don't think it is.

I can't really comment fully as I haven't watched my discs yet, but yeah, given what's been presented, I don't really get it. I have also heard Frank Djeng say (I believe in commentaries) that a lot of the Hong Kong period pieces use a lot of anachronistic Hong Kong slang and stuff, so that sounds really believable and I think it's right to translate it how it actually is vs. how you might expect it to sound based on the setting/visuals.

[Markgway]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nit-brow-brows

[The Mole]

I once complained about the VS subtitles for BURNING PARADISE for using the expression to "throw someone in front of a bus" (given the film ist set in a time where busses didn't exist) but obviously I was wrong because this is an anacronism that is indeen part of the Cantonese dialogue and not a mistake of the translation.

Another example: When I watched the old Sony DVD of DRUNKEN MASTER there was a scene in the beginning, where Dean Shek says in the English dub "You turkeys!". It was translated in the German subtitles a "Ihr Laffen!". And I was at first convinced that this translation was total gibberish because I never heard the word "Laffen" before. but googeling it gave me the info that "Laffen" is indeed a common abbreviation for "Lackaffen" (an outdated German expression meaning "Flash Harry", "Dandy" or "Beau" in English). So not the translation was gibberish but I just wasn't aware of the word before.

So, just because you don't know what "knitted brows" are does not mean it's bad English.

[filmlover22]

Originally Posted by The Mole

I once complained about the VS subtitles for BURNING PARADISE for using the expression to "throw someone in front of a bus" (given the film ist set in a time where busses didn't exist) but obviously I was wrong because this is an anacronism that is indeen part of the Cantonese dialogue and not a mistake of the translation.

Another example: When I watched the old Sony DVD of DRUNKEN MASTER there was a scene in the beginning, where Dean Shek says in the English dub "You turkeys!". It was translated in the German subtitles a "Ihr Laffen!". And I was at first convinced that this translation was total gibberish because I never heard the word "Laffen" before. but googeling it gave me the info that "Laffen" is indeed a common abbreviation for "Lackaffen" (an outdated German expression meaning "Flash Harry", "Dandy" or "Beau" in English). So not the translation was gibberish but I just wasn't aware of the word before.

So, just because you don't know what "knitted brows" are does not mean it's bad English.

As someone who has been accused of having a knitted brow, I know what you mean.

One of the funniest things I read was in a forum for people who have one brow (called unibrow). Their slogan was "isn't time we meet? your eyebrows already have!" Still cracks me up.

[Eibon]

Originally Posted by The Mole

I once complained about the VS subtitles for BURNING PARADISE for using the expression to "throw someone in front of a bus" (given the film ist set in a time where busses didn't exist) but obviously I was wrong because this is an anacronism that is indeen part of the Cantonese dialogue and not a mistake of the translation.


So, just because you don't know what "knitted brows" are does not mean it's bad English.

The issue I raised is the inelegant translation and persistent profanity. Yes the expression may be valid but it is hardly an improvement over the more poetic version. No one could argue "Giddy, dizzy, dead..." is an improvement over "My head is spinning". The problem with this translation is that it deadens the scenes and I find it laborious and too literate and doesn't seem appropriate. Yes, I know that the films under discussion are not attempting to recreate period vernacular, but I was planning to introduce this movie to my 14year old daughter on account of its mix of romance, poetry, politics and comedy. Upon reviewing this translation I felt it would be poorly received.

Furthermore, (and I'm mindful one defender hasn't even seen it), after some questionable domestic violence, the husband softens his approach with poetry and the power of words are demonstrated. He asks if he was wrong to scold and invites her to bed, and she demurred and laid her head on his shoulder. He did not, as translated, demand her agreement and send her away to bed.

I clearly stated that translation is an art and requires knowledge and experience and it appears to me that the there is no QC at these labels generally, and because they don't offer the original as well as "improved" subtitles, the risk is that opinions will vary as to the success of the translation. Now I have an expensive version of the movie I won't watch again. The criticisms are levelled at the label and not the translator who has acquiesced a little more finesse might've been welcome and perhaps time or budget didn't allow for it.

[Markgway]

Originally Posted by Eibon

The issue I raised is the inelegant translation and persistent profanity.

So if the profanity is in the script would you prefer I sanitise it so you can show the film to your daughter? I'm really not getting what you're driving at.

Yes the expression may be valid but it is hardly an improvement over the more poetic version.

But that is subjective. There are many different styles and forms of poetry.

No one could argue "Giddy, dizzy, dead..." is an improvement over "My head is spinning".

She says those words in a very specific way. It's the three stages of her malady.

The problem with this translation is that it deadens the scenes and I find it laborious and too literate and doesn't seem appropriate.

Subjective, but you talk as if this were fact.

Yes, I know that the films under discussion are not attempting to recreate period vernacular, but I was planning to introduce this movie to my 14year old daughter on account of its mix of romance, poetry, politics and comedy. Upon reviewing this translation I felt it would be poorly received.

Well, that's a shame for your daughter. Let's hope she's more open minded than daddy.

Furthermore, (and I'm mindful one defender hasn't even seen it), after some questionable domestic violence, the husband softens his approach with poetry and the power of words are demonstrated. He asks if he was wrong to scold and invites her to bed, and she demurred and laid her head on his shoulder. He did not, as translated, demand her agreement and send her away to bed.

How exactly do you know all this? I'm not saying I never make mistakes - we're all human - but I don't recall there being any reference to sex in the dialogue. I'm sure the word for sleep was used... BUT, if I got that wrong and missed the implication, I apologise to the fans.

I clearly stated that translation is an art and requires knowledge and experience and it appears to me that the there is no QC at these labels generally, and because they don't offer the original as well as "improved" subtitles, the risk is that opinions will vary as to the success of the translation. Now I have an expensive version of the movie I won't watch again.

Seriously, I tried to be nice, but you obviously have a hard on for this issue, so just go away, please...

The criticisms are levelled at the label and not the translator who has acquiesced a little more finesse might've been welcome and perhaps time or budget didn't allow for it.

Nope, it's all down to me. I accept full responsibility/blame. And again I was trying to be nice.

[Eibon]

I wasn't replying to you but I've shared my opinion and see no benefit in engaging further on this.

[Anthony Thorne]

I'm not getting the insistence that dialogue be period accurate when many of the films are comedies with martial arts attached. Are the jokes and choreographed fight scenes also period accurate, or the make up on the actors, or the onscreen titles at the beginning of the film? I'm assuming none of the above is meant to be a convincing recreation of time travel, and the movies under discussion are entertainments where period accurate dialogue maybe isn't the first thing the makers had in mind for the audience that had just shelled out their hard-earned to watch them in a theatre.

The above goes X 10 if Jackie Chan is involved.

[The Mole]

As fans of Hong Kong Cinema know too well, Cantonese is not only a language very difficult if not sometimes impossible (as with many jokes in Stephen Chow movies) to translate into any other language. In addition to that Cantonese humour is most of the time filled with profanity, toilet humour, swearwords, sexual references and other nasty stuff. Why? Because people from Hong Kong are laughing their asses off about it. That is their humour. That is, what they think is funny.

Many older translations of Hong Kong movies have intentionally been dumbed down and/or trivialized in order to make the movies more accessable to general western audiences. This also meant taking out all the toilet humour, mean swearwords and sex jokes.

So something that would be in the same league as "Shut up, you motherf**ker" could easily become "Shut up, you idiot". Or someone saying something like "I'll rape you 'till you drop dead" could suddenly be just "Screw you" in the subtitles. Sitting in a cinema in Hong Kong watching a Hong Kong comedy could mean that while you as a foreigner were laughing about a subtitle saying "Well, I guess the joke was on me", the local guy next to you was laughing about the spoken dialogue saying "Well, I guess I have been f**ked in the a** by a bull."

What I am trying to say is: Only because we are accustomed to subtitles that used to simplify, trivialize and generally dumb down the dialogue in Cantonese language films, does not mean that the originals were as harmless or even child-friendly as we thought they were. And bringing the originally intended meaning back to the subtitles instead of just going on servicing the taste of western audiences is a huge step in the right direction, if you ask me.

[navydavey]

First time watch of the first movie for me yesterday, I'll try and watch the 2nd movie tomorrow if I can.

I've been working my way through Li's movies over the years thanks to 88 Films, Eureka and some American and German imports and on the whole I find his movies very much a mixed bag but mostly just feels like alot of missed opportunities on the whole.

I think Li has a decent screen presence and his skill is clearly incredible, but to me there is nearly always an over reliance on wire work to enhance his already graceful maneuvers and the movies themselves just feel like they miss something compared to the likes of Chan, Sammo, etc.

That all said, the first Fong Sai Yuk was bl00dy awesome, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the supporting cast really helped elevate this one for me, definitely top tier Li in my eyes.

[WaverBoy]

Originally Posted by navydavey

First time watch of the first movie for me yesterday, I'll try and watch the 2nd movie tomorrow if I can.

I've been working my way through Li's movies over the years thanks to 88 Films, Eureka and some American and German imports and on the whole I find his movies very much a mixed bag but mostly just feels like alot of missed opportunities on the whole.

I think Li has a decent screen presence and his skill is clearly incredible, but to me there is nearly always an over reliance on wire work to enhance his already graceful maneuvers and the movies themselves just feel like they miss something compared to the likes of Chan, Sammo, etc.

That all said, the first Fong Sai Yuk was bl00dy awesome, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the supporting cast really helped elevate this one for me, definitely top tier Li in my eyes.

I gotta disagree there — comparing Jet with Jackie and Sammo is like apples and oranges. Completely different styles all round. I can’t see Jackie or Sammo pulling off Fist of Legend or Once Upon A Time In China like Jet did. They all have their individual gifts and are all excellent at what they do.

[Cinematt]

Originally Posted by Eibon

I clearly stated that translation is an art and requires knowledge and experience and it appears to me that the there is no QC at these labels generally, and because they don't offer the original as well as "improved" subtitles, the risk is that opinions will vary as to the success of the translation.

The rights holders of prior subtitle translations could well be entirely different entities than the rights holders of the film itself, and it may frequently be impossible to properly licence those versions if the companies are no longer operating, or not willing to play ball. Obviously there is no such thing as a perfect translation, but unless you speak the original language fluently and understand the broader cultural context of the words there's no real way of knowing which is best, just which you personally prefer. That means things could go through dozens of layers of QC and be signed off by a slew of translators, only for you to still dislike them, so it feels beyond assumptive to be claiming a poor job when you don't even know what's actually being said.

[AnimalCMan]

LOL, this was a disappointing discussion to stumble upon. I will never understand subtitle snobs. Go learn Cantonese or Mandarin, then you won't have to come on here and complain about the hard work others have put into translating these films for you.

[russweiss1]

Originally Posted by AnimalCMan

LOL, this was a disappointing discussion to stumble upon. I will never understand subtitle snobs. Go learn Cantonese or Mandarin, then you won't have to come on here and complain about the hard work others have put into translating these films for you.

There are complaints on every thread when members find something they feel is below standard. Why should the discussion of subtitles be any different?

[JackyJacquard]

Yeah also I would see any complaint about the absence of original subtitles to be just as valid as the absence of original audio, or video (ahem, George Lucas, cough)

Ideally we would have the original ‘poetic’ track and Mark’s new translation to choose between. But we don’t.

I should really get around to watching these movies actually. Just like my 500 other unwatched (more now lol I just splashed out on like half of Masters of Cinema)